The Martial Single Class Pool Poll

[Elric Galad]

When I compare Single Classes to (the very popular) Multi Classes, I think the former have a ressource problem more than an ability problem, especially when it comes to martial classes.

 

Martial Multi get 18 ressources. Martial Single Class get 11 and actually requires more for their top tier abilities. This is a really Huge Gap. I get why Multi should get more points, since their abilities are weaker, but I think the current difference is too much.

 

Single Class Multis simply don't have enough ressources to use their high tier abilities more than a couple of times. And in order to do that, that have to focus on them and totally forget their low tier ones. You're not rewarded for picking diverse active abilities.

 

There are some way to get more ressources, but even them often provide more benefits to Multi than to Single class (Brillant inspiration, Devil of Caroc Breastplate, and even Empower refill).

 

In short, I believe there would be no more major issues with any single class if their ressource pools were significantly buffed.

 

I would like to know if my opinion is shared.

 

 

Furthermore, if you agree with the previous point, I would like to know how many additional points would be sufficient.

 

I think +2 at creation and +1 with Prestige would be perfect (for a total of 14 points vs 18 points for Multi Class).

 

Multi Class are basically strictly better than Single at Level 1 (2 ability points and 2 “level 0” ability such as Carnage or Sneak Attack which are quite strong). So +2 Ressources at creation would correct this.

 

Prestige is currently more rewarding for casters. +1 ressource would correct this. It is a Tier 9 ability so it makes sense to make it strong.

 

 

Another option would be to allow Empower to fully renew Single Class ressource. That option would have the advantage to avoid buffing monk too much (Empowered Inner Death would come at a cost).

Edited September 25, 2018 by Elric Galad

[InsaneCommander]

I agree. I'm considering having only multi class characters from now on. Including all companions except for Aloth.

 

Single class could certainly use some improvement for the reasons and in the way you said. I also agree with +2 at creation and +1 with Prestige. Works just fine.

[AndreaColombo]

Subbing.

[uuuhhii]

reduce multi resource will be better and easier

especially caster class

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Reduce caster classes to how much? 1 per combat? :D 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

While I agree that Martial single class would benefit greatly from a higher resource pool (say 14 or so to Multi's 9), the bigger issue is that for the most part martial tier 8 and 9 abilities are less attractive than caster analogues or the synergy gained from multiclassing. I would buff those and add new ones for variety to start.

[Elric Galad]

reduce multi resource will be better and easier

especially caster class

 

I don't disagree with this because it would avoid power creeping. Maybe it is part of the solution, but reducing the use of active abilities would not be very fun.

 

Not sure about reducing ressource for Multi Class Casters. They have too many spells per encounter, but that does not make them especially strong compated to Single Class Casters, simply because the later have enough cast. Maybe they should also reduce Single Class casts too then. But I'm not sure about this either.

[AndreaColombo]

Reducing resources for casters would be the opposite of fun.

[rheingold]

I agree, absolutely would help all single class toons not just the martial classes. Another way to get the same effect, maybe more elegant, is for the abilities to cost slightly less for single class, heck there could be an ability which drop the resource cost by one. Would have to be really high level though.(only available for single class). But yeah, I have only really played barbs and rangers out of the combat classes, and I run out of resources really quickly. Empower helps to get some back but still. BTW it's the only empower I ever use, not sure about everyone else? But maybe the various empower abilities need to be tweaked as well? I can just about only think of a wizard who would do better with empowering a spell than being able to use more resources. So most of the empower abilities seem wasted.

[Ophiuchus]

I'd go with 3: +1 to pool at PLs 3, 5, 7.

[Boeroer]

If you get certain lvl 8 or 9 spells you simply don't need more spells than Multis. Or did something survive your high-PL Maelstrom or Missile Salvo?

 

It would help if items that give you resources (mortification bindings, gauntlets of Discipline, Caroc's BP) would give multiclasses +2/+2 and +4 single classes. Same with Chameleon's Ring.

[baldurs_gate_2]

MC are better most of the time, but a SC Monk is still pretty good. With high ACC und Stunning Surge, you don't run out of ressources that easily and whispers is really good, esp. if you empower it.

[rheingold]

If you get certain lvl 8 or 9 spells you simply don't need more spells than Multis. Or did something survive your high-PL Maelstrom or Missile Salvo?

It would help if items that give you resources (mortification bindings, gauntlets of Discipline, Caroc's BP) would give multiclasses +2/+2 and +4 single classes. Same with Chameleon's Ring.

Well no I don’t want more resources for high level spells for casters, what I do want is more resources for single class low level casters.

So for the first 3 spell levels or so. They are the opposite of martial classes which suffer in comparison to multi classes at high levels.

Single classe casters suffer at low levels.

 

Also I have never got to see the uber destructive power of awesomeness that is an empowered Aloth meteor storm special.

He or she, is fairly suicidal, probably because of his/her split personality and whenever I attempt to cast it, he/she invariably runs screaming towards the dragon of doom. Stops just inside engagement distance and proceeds to cast the spell.

SPOILER:

 

It never ends well.

Not sure if it’s the ai, or the casting range, or path finding, but I really battle with meteor storm.

[Elric Galad]

MC are better most of the time, but a SC Monk is still pretty good. With high ACC und Stunning Surge, you don't run out of ressources that easily and whispers is really good, esp. if you empower it.

 

 

I think monks are a special case because they have 2 ressource pools, so you don't feel the lack of ressources that much.

That and Empowered Inner Death is enough to justify Single Class anyway.

But the question may be asked in the opposite way : would monk become more overpowered with additional ressource ?

 

Whispers of the Wind use Wounds, and Empowers are limited to 1/encounter, so my opinion is that it wouldn't change that much.  

Edited September 26, 2018 by Elric Galad

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

MC are better most of the time, but a SC Monk is still pretty good. With high ACC und Stunning Surge, you don't run out of ressources that easily and whispers is really good, esp. if you empower it.

 

 

I think monks are a special case because they have 2 ressource pools, so you don't feel the lack of ressources that much.

That and Empowered Inner Death is enough to justify Single Class anyway.

But the question may be asked in the opposite way : would monk become more overpowered with additional ressource ?

 

Whispers of the Wind use Wounds, and Empowers are limited to 1/encounter, so my opinion is that it wouldn't change that much.  

 

In my opinion, the wound talents from monk at Level VIII / IX are superior, but pretty lackluster downwards from VII, what a MC can achieve. If they would make torments reach a full attack, it would be fine.

[Elric Galad]

Well no I don’t want more resources for high level spells for casters, what I do want is more resources for single class low level casters.

So for the first 3 spell levels or so. They are the opposite of martial classes which suffer in comparison to multi classes at high levels.

Single classe casters suffer at low levels.

 

 

I agree with this. Single Class Casters are also stricly worse at level 1 than their multi counterparts.

Not very fair. A couple of additional casts of lvl1 spells would be sufficient, for example. Won't change much on high levels.

 

Some low-level goodies for single class ciphers and chanters would be nice too, for the same reasons.

 

I simply don't think it's that important. I can live with the "low level wiz are weak" trope since their endgame (and midgame) is good. Still it feels weird that multis start plain better.

 

While I agree that Martial single class would benefit greatly from a higher resource pool (say 14 or so to Multi's 9), the bigger issue is that for the most part martial tier 8 and 9 abilities are less attractive than caster analogues or the synergy gained from multiclassing. I would buff those and add new ones for variety to start.

 

Well, it is sure that Paladins, Fighters or Rogues Tier 8/9 could be improved a bit.

 

But still, I feel they would have enough abilities to build around with more ressource and their current ones.

 

Single Class Fighters could spam unbending and clean Sweep with good PL and feel good enough for their purpose if they had a little more Discipline.

Take the Hit and Sundering Blows could be added for greater versatility. Penetrating Strike with PL10 would do the Single target DPS job.

Black Jacket Clean Sweep with various debuffing modal is already great but empty Discipline quickly.

 

Single Class Rangers can easily swing from AoE DPS (Heart Seeker/Whirling Strikes) to Single Target (Marked Prey/Wounding Shot/Twin Shot).

Added Bond would allow pet buff in addition to this, so they can sit comfortably at the top of "summoners" role.

 

Single Class Paladins are basically life insurance. If they die, they come back (3 zeal cost). If an ally die, they gain 2 and looses 3 for bringing them back. Yeah 1 zeal rez.

Add a bit more zeal and they can add just a bit of Fire Lashes or Inspired Beacons.

 

Single Class Rogues have Gambit. More Guile is all that they really need...

 

It's not to deny that Buffing high Tier Abilities would be good, at least to give them more options.

But I don't think it would be hard to justify to include any Single Class in a party. That's why I say there won't be major balance issue between classes.

(except maybe Empowered Meteor and Empowered Inner Death...)

 

Without ressources, all these nice abilities simply can't be used together.

[Purudaya]

This is the main reason I don't play single classes (except for wizard). Short of a system overhaul, which is probably unlikely, they could partially address this by adding a few items that increase power pool for single classes only - maybe a handful of "amulets of specialization" or something.