Does a single clas Paladin support enough to Warrant a Spot (on PoTD)

[Torm51]

I’ve finally started play throughs in earnest and need your advice. Do you guys think a single class Paladin contributes enough with buffs and inspirations to warrant a slot or is a sub class needed e.g. Herald etc (On PoTD). I was thinking crusader but i feel like a crusader with a shield is missing a huge opportunity on damage and that would be his contribution, not buffs. More of an off tank and damage dealer. For support a Herald is obviously better. But does a single class Paladin bring enough? Or is a multi class to Herald just in plain better?

[Clerith]

I STRONGLY recommend multiclassing Paladin, everything good is at lower levels, Paladin's high level abilities are mostly underwhelming.

[Manveru123]

No.

[1TTFFSSE]

Paladins should be multiclassed as they have little interesting abilities past level 7.

 

Also most paladin defensive abilities are passive while the offense is active (because exhortations are not really that great currently). So I suggest setting Ai to aggressive and going from there (having taken flames of devotion and its shared flames upgrade+inspiring beacon)

 

That also means if you multiclass the other class can have active defensive abilities. 

 

Chanter is a popular choice of course but I mind multi-classing with a livegiver druid stronger for a "healer tank" or even with a wael priest. If you want a more traditional none healer tank but a durable guy who punishes in melee multi with rogue trickster for a holyslayer or with a fighter for a crusader. 

[heldred]

Short answer... no.

 

Longer answer... no, not even close.

 

Full answer... After PL 7, really PL 5, the class starts to offer very little of value. There is nothing remotely close compared to pure Wiz, Monk, and well most classes are junk past PL 7. I think it is a flaw with the overall game... well maybe my expectations are wrong, but I think higher level skills should always be inherently better, creating a compelling, not overwhelming reason to use the new skill. Presently most high level skills/spells are garbage (due to cost or scaling of lower level powers), except for the almighty Wiz. Then again, with 15 scroll lore, anyone can enjoy a sliver of Wiz power.

[Torm51]

This was my thought process as well just wanted confirmation. Really don’t like Druid multi thematically so I guess it’s either Herald full support or a Crusader for off tank damage dealer. I feel that a crusader doesn’t bring enough support in full tank mode as he gets ignored due to too much deflection. Swashbucklers and other classes debuff well so there is value in doing less damage. I also feel that herald tanks bring a lot due to lots of healing and buffs.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Torm51

[1TTFFSSE]

Go with Paladin/Priest then is my recommendation. You'd get the most bang for the buck that way with Scion of Flame talent, Ring of Focused Flame (+10 fire accuracy) and Magran's Favor+Sun and Moon for even more fire power goodness. 

 

It be very strong from the start with paladin passive defensives and instant priest healing via the priest aoe heal ability. In late level the damage is insane and efficient: you just cast storm of lol holy fire and go to town hitting stuff with flames of devotion. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by 1TTFFSSE

[Clerith]

Crusader should probably be a main tank build, Fighter stances + active defenses + Paladin's passive defenses + the resist all afflictions passives. Though I guess it could also be a really tanky dual wield dps. Spam FoD with the fire accuracy ring, and use Fighter resources for mobility and buffs. Honestly, that's still good melee damage, and better than any pure Paladin or Fighter build.

[Torm51]

Ya I’m taking a spear in the early game as ACC issues hit you hard on PoTD due to the increased defenses. Maybe spear and buckler? Large shield for dragons etc (no spoilers!) the early game a large shield is just brutal on your ACC and since aggro doesn’t exist you get ignored and you can’t get hit a damn thing. Need at least some melee output from my front liner. Due to being up front and having lots of engagement he will tank enough in order to get value you out of that and he will have lay on hands m, auras and some buffs.

[gkathellar]

It's not just that paladin's high level abilities are bad (although they are) - it's also that paladins are super boring, and serve best as a supplement to something more interesting.

[pi2repsion]

I keep hoping that someday somebody will find a combo that makes single class paladins worthwhile in Deadfire, but the closest I can think of is having several healing chant chanters supporting several paladins running around farting Divine Immolation (for self+foeAOE damage + allyAOE heal) all over the place and hoping to kill the opposition through AOE before they croak, and I'm not that intrigued that I'll try it out, considering how obscenely useful heralds and crusaders are. (Or multiclassing with a spellcaster, or anything else, for that matter. Paladin may not be quite as good for multiclassing with everything as Chanter is, but it is certainly a decent second best.)

Edited August 20, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Teclis23]

Yeah my experience with paladins is they are ver effective in the early levels and once you hit mid levels they just become outright boring. Alot of there mid to high level abilities are bizarrely seem to not even work or are maybe even bugged for example:

 

- self immolation kills you (43 raw damage per 3 sec)

- hastening exhortation gives +5 dex and is a high level ability that costs 3 zeal

- the paladins reviving exhortation does huge damage to you after 15 sec that more often then not kills you. The priests and chanters revive doesnt do any damage to you.

- reinforcing exhortation is there best high level abilty by a ling shot but it is only single target and has a really short duration (12 sec)

- there passive deflection bonus faith and conviction is a huge pain in the arse to maintain. You will even be penalised and lose deflection is you take just one conversation that goes against there dispositions you can be penalised

 

Screw paladins

[Verde]

Zzzzzzfest!

[Torm51]

Yeah my experience with paladins is they are ver effective in the early levels and once you hit mid levels they just become outright boring. Alot of there mid to high level abilities are bizarrely seem to not even work or are maybe even bugged for example:

 

- self immolation kills you (43 raw damage per 3 sec)

- hastening exhortation gives +5 dex and is a high level ability that costs 3 zeal

- the paladins reviving exhortation does huge damage to you after 15 sec that more often then not kills you. The priests and chanters revive doesnt do any damage to you.

- reinforcing exhortation is there best high level abilty by a ling shot but it is only single target and has a really short duration (12 sec)

- there passive deflection bonus faith and conviction is a huge pain in the arse to maintain. You will even be penalised and lose deflection is you take just one conversation that goes against there dispositions you can be penalised

 

Screw paladins

Everything you say is on point except the last. The F and C dispositions is part of playing a Paladin. It’s part of being in a warrior society/group. I was in the Marines for 8 years you were expected to act a certain way. Granted you don’t all of the sudden become terrible at shooting because you conduct yourself in an unbecoming way. It’s the same type of idea for Paladins. Their power is based on acting a certain way.

[Verde]

 

Yeah my experience with paladins is they are ver effective in the early levels and once you hit mid levels they just become outright boring. Alot of there mid to high level abilities are bizarrely seem to not even work or are maybe even bugged for example:

 

- self immolation kills you (43 raw damage per 3 sec)

- hastening exhortation gives +5 dex and is a high level ability that costs 3 zeal

- the paladins reviving exhortation does huge damage to you after 15 sec that more often then not kills you. The priests and chanters revive doesnt do any damage to you.

- reinforcing exhortation is there best high level abilty by a ling shot but it is only single target and has a really short duration (12 sec)

- there passive deflection bonus faith and conviction is a huge pain in the arse to maintain. You will even be penalised and lose deflection is you take just one conversation that goes against there dispositions you can be penalised

 

Screw paladins

Everything you say is on point except the last. The F and C dispositions is part of playing a Paladin. It’s part of being in a warrior society/group. I was in the Marines for 8 years you were expected to act a certain way. Granted you don’t all of the sudden become terrible at shooting because you conduct yourself in an unbecoming way. It’s the same type of idea for Paladins. Their power is based on acting a certain way.

It's really unfortunate that dispositions seem so random or hard to manage organically in PoE2. Could be because not all convos have all choices, but why would they?

 

Thanks for your service btw.

[Torm51]

 

 

Yeah my experience with paladins is they are ver effective in the early levels and once you hit mid levels they just become outright boring. Alot of there mid to high level abilities are bizarrely seem to not even work or are maybe even bugged for example:

 

- self immolation kills you (43 raw damage per 3 sec)

- hastening exhortation gives +5 dex and is a high level ability that costs 3 zeal

- the paladins reviving exhortation does huge damage to you after 15 sec that more often then not kills you. The priests and chanters revive doesnt do any damage to you.

- reinforcing exhortation is there best high level abilty by a ling shot but it is only single target and has a really short duration (12 sec)

- there passive deflection bonus faith and conviction is a huge pain in the arse to maintain. You will even be penalised and lose deflection is you take just one conversation that goes against there dispositions you can be penalised

 

Screw paladins

Everything you say is on point except the last. The F and C dispositions is part of playing a Paladin. It’s part of being in a warrior society/group. I was in the Marines for 8 years you were expected to act a certain way. Granted you don’t all of the sudden become terrible at shooting because you conduct yourself in an unbecoming way. It’s the same type of idea for Paladins. Their power is based on acting a certain way.

It's really unfortunate that dispositions seem so random or hard to manage organically in PoE2. Could be because not all convos have all choices, but why would they?

 

Thanks for your service btw.

 

That is fair.  In POE 1 it was kind of the same lol

[Teclis23]

If you have 2 pallys as front line tanks it is very effective because they can both apply there heals and exhortations on each other to keep each other alive

 

The problem is is that this is very very very boring. I promised myself that i will never roll a pally again . I really did not enjoy there playstyle at all and will never be rolling one again

 

There are alot of fun builds out there and pally hybrids arent one of them

[Ascaloth]

 

Yeah my experience with paladins is they are ver effective in the early levels and once you hit mid levels they just become outright boring. Alot of there mid to high level abilities are bizarrely seem to not even work or are maybe even bugged for example:

 

- self immolation kills you (43 raw damage per 3 sec)

- hastening exhortation gives +5 dex and is a high level ability that costs 3 zeal

- the paladins reviving exhortation does huge damage to you after 15 sec that more often then not kills you. The priests and chanters revive doesnt do any damage to you.

- reinforcing exhortation is there best high level abilty by a ling shot but it is only single target and has a really short duration (12 sec)

- there passive deflection bonus faith and conviction is a huge pain in the arse to maintain. You will even be penalised and lose deflection is you take just one conversation that goes against there dispositions you can be penalised

 

Screw paladins

Everything you say is on point except the last. The F and C dispositions is part of playing a Paladin. It’s part of being in a warrior society/group. I was in the Marines for 8 years you were expected to act a certain way. Granted you don’t all of the sudden become terrible at shooting because you conduct yourself in an unbecoming way. It’s the same type of idea for Paladins. Their power is based on acting a certain way.

 

 

The problem with that is that the disposition system in Deadfire is (as far as I know) still kind of borked. May or may not have been fixed, but if it has I haven't heard about it. I mean, I want to do a run with a Paladin Watcher as well, but I'm holding off on that until I know I can trust its consistency to the same extent as I did in PoE1. 

[Boeroer]

The exhortations my be costly, but they are also fast cast with 0 recovery - which means you can remove afflictions immediately. Especially when using a gun. I agree that the costs seem too high most of the time though.

 

Also a single class paladin can get back substancial amounts of zeal on kill (if he takes the right abilites).

 

Also you can get Exhalted Endurance a lot earlier which has more impact on lower levels.

 

That means if you build a somewhat offensive paladin (who is still sturdy - just because he's a Paladin) you can get a lot of zeal back during an encounter.

 

With Exhalted Endurance and Greater Lay on Hands (and some healing bonuses like Physiker's Belt and Practised Healer) you already only lose less than 50 health in total from your Sacred Immolation. If you pick up Voidward even less. With Sworn Enemy, Scion of Flame, Ring of Focused Flame, FoD and Inspired Beacon+Scared Immolation you will kill a lot of enemies, getting back zeal constantly. Later use Divine Immolation and Zeal of Pure Light to heal your people big time while dealing large amounts of damage around you.

 

Also people always argue about Sacred/Divine Immolation as if you'd use it in a vacuum, without your party members present. Or as if a paladin couldn't drink a potion. Sure, the self damage of Sacred Immolation is high, too high. But it's not that hard to circumvent it.

 

If a single class paladin is boring then it's because you build him too defensively. Everything is boring if you build it too defensively. A single class paladin like described above surely isn't boring. Maybe the character would be more useful if he was a Herald or Templar, but he's certainly not boring.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

The paladin is great because of his passives and Lay on Hands. For good actives/offense you should pick another class.

[Teclis23]

The exhortations my be costly, but they are also fast cast with 0 recovery - which means you can remove afflictions immediately. Especially when using a gun. I agree that the costs seem too high most of the time though.

 

Also a single class paladin can get back substancial amounts of zeal on kill (if he takes the right abilites).

 

Also you can get Exhalted Endurance a lot earlier which has more impact on lower levels.

 

That means if you build a somewhat offensive paladin (who is still sturdy - just because he's a Paladin) you can get a lot of zeal back during an encounter.

 

With Exhalted Endurance and Greater Lay on Hands (and some healing bonuses like Physiker's Belt and Practised Healer) you already only lose less than 50 health in total from your Sacred Immolation. If you pick up Voidward even less. With Sworn Enemy, Scion of Flame, Ring of Focused Flame, FoD and Inspired Beacon+Scared Immolation you will kill a lot of enemies, getting back zeal constantly. Later use Divine Immolation and Zeal of Pure Light to heal your people big time while dealing large amounts of damage around you.

 

Also people always argue about Sacred/Divine Immolation as if you'd use it in a vacuum, without your party members present. Or as if a paladin couldn't drink a potion. Sure, the self damage of Sacred Immolation is high, too high. But it's not that hard to circumvent it.

 

If a single class paladin is boring then it's because you build him too defensively. Everything is boring if you build it too defensively. A single class paladin like described above surely isn't boring. Maybe the character would be more useful if he was a Herald or Templar, but he's certainly not boring.

yeah but using void-ward takes up a ring slot where you could be using another ring and using healing potions, lay on hands and other buffs to keep you alive while using self immolation has an opportunity cost. You wouldnt have to do those things if you werent burning yourself alive.

[dunehunter]

Finally people start to realize that paladins' mid/high level abilities are super boring

[Manveru123]

I dunno, I run Voidward on my Ravager and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. The rings in this game aren't really game-breakingly powerful or anything.

[Teclis23]

The worst thing about paladins is being forced into certain dialogue in conversations or you get hit with a deflection penalty. Not cool

[Boeroer]

@Manveru123: Exactly. Except Marksman ring maybe. And using two Rings of Overseeing sometimes.

 

@Teclis23: Erm... isn't that the whole point of roleplaying a Paladin?

Edited August 21, 2018 by Boeroer