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Has anyone built anything particularly interesting with this weapon?

 

Pure Ranger w/ Twinned Shot + Driving Flight seems obvious, but potentially boring as well.

 

I'd like to know too.  There used to be a bunch of assassin /* builds around launch based on sniping from afar but I think they were all nerfed into oblivion.  The power builds for guns today seem to be either around blunderbuss (applying rogue effects/damage in AOE and self-flaking on streetfighter) or 2-pistol (with FoD) to abuse full attacks (ignoring reload).  There was some recent talk about Scordeo's pistol / Eccea's Arcane for a one-hand build but i didn't really follow it.  Most of these also didn't come with full build suggestions.

 

I like the idea of an arquebus user, but it seems inferior on a lot of levels to the above.

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You dont need a build with that weapon. Just give it to anyone and you will out DPS anyone in your party guaranteed no matter what your build is.

 

Its about to get nerfed in the next patch i think judging by someone from OBS comments on another thread

Edited by Teclis23
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You dont need a build with that weapon. Just give it to anyone and you will out DPS anyone in your party guaranteed no matter what your build is.

 

Its about to get nerfed in the next patch i think judging by someone from OBS comments on another thread

I'd put money on Frostseeker outperforming it on literally any character/build in the game, outside of ghosts and pure single target fights (of which there are very few). There are other ranged weapons that are also far superior if you know how to use them.

 

The Red Hand is great for a couple reasons; you can slap it on anyone and it will do good damage, it's attainable fairly early/easily, it can trivialise Vessel fights, and you can use it to give your entire party +20/40% damage.

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Has anyone built anything particularly interesting with this weapon?

 

Pure Ranger w/ Twinned Shot + Driving Flight seems obvious, but potentially boring as well.

Twinned Shot is only for bows. So a multiclass would be better. Rogues probably prefer 2 weapons to better life the full attacks though (pistols or blunderbusses).

 

I guess Big Game Hunter would work well.

Edited by Haplok
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Has anyone built anything particularly interesting with this weapon?

 

Pure Ranger w/ Twinned Shot + Driving Flight seems obvious, but potentially boring as well.

Twinned Shot is only for bows. So a multiclass would be better. Rogues probably prefer 2 weapons to better life the full attacks though (pistols or blunderbusses).

 

I guess Big Game Hunter would work well.

No this is not true, twinned shot is for any ranged weapon

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One of my favourite ways to use it is on a Scout (Maia is perfect as her subclass helps mitigate the reduced range). You open up with a Crippling Strike from stealth (sneak attack bonus is granted from stealth), then use Marked for the Hunt, then follow up with (Accurate) Wounding Shot. Later on you can upgrade Crippling to Debilitating (Deathblows for Wounding Shot, -10 deflection, -1 armour). This whole opener can be done with 0 recovery time (about 1-1.5 seconds action time depending on dex etc.), and will usually outright kill a backliner/caster. If it doesn't, then your DoTs will usually finish them off.

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You dont need a build with that weapon. Just give it to anyone and you will out DPS anyone in your party guaranteed no matter what your build is.

 

 

 

We went over this in the other thread, but this is just flat out mathematically false. Aamina's Legacy flat-out outperfforms the Red Hand mathematically in DPS terms and several other weapons dramatically outperform it with specific builds.

 

You do need to lose the buff from it when you unequip the weapon (not just switch to a different weapon set).

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You dont need a build with that weapon. Just give it to anyone and you will out DPS anyone in your party guaranteed no matter what your build is.

 

Its about to get nerfed in the next patch i think judging by someone from OBS comments on another thread

I'd put money on Frostseeker outperforming it on literally any character/build in the game, outside of ghosts and pure single target fights (of which there are very few). There are other ranged weapons that are also far superior if you know how to use them.

 

The Red Hand is great for a couple reasons; you can slap it on anyone and it will do good damage, it's attainable fairly early/easily, it can trivialise Vessel fights, and you can use it to give your entire party +20/40% damage.

 

Ok you show me frost seeker beats it. If you want to make comments like that you have to back them up. I have played with both weapons and its pretty clear red hand is far better

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Ok you show me frost seeker beats it. If you want to make comments like that you have to back them up. I have played with both weapons and its pretty clear red hand is far better

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kaylon explained how the Aamina's Legacy bow gives superior DPS to the Red Hand here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104928-ansalons-ranged-weapon-tier-list/?p=2085783

 

Other players have run tests and showed that builds using the Kitchen Stove and other non-red-hand weapons can dramatically outperform Red Hand builds and posted the data in these threads:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104892-build-witch-the-banshee-build-very-high-damage-berserkerascendant-rdps-caster/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104924-dps-tests-of-some-classesmulticlasses/

 

Presuming you don't exploit the fact that you can swap the Red Hand around the whole party to give everyone the buff, and just use it "normally" on one character, then the Red Hand is a second-tier ranged weapon at best, but makes up for it in ease of use -- it doesn't require a complex build or positioning micromanagement, and it's got very high Pen so you don't have to think about that part of the game much either. It's not so much overpowered as it is convenient

 

I like it on low to mid (8-15) level ciphers before you manage to collect Eccea's and the Kitchen Stove and other guns that do non-piercing damage, because it's easy to carry an arquebus in one weapon set and a quarterstaff in the other and have two solid "ranged" damage type options. Late game though it's deprecated because the damage boost it gives is insufficient to top out your focus bar on an alpha strike -- you need AoE or fly-through multitarget to do that.

 

I'll agree that the persistent Red Hand bonus should vanish from a character if the weapon is placed into inventory or equipped by a different character. But that's the only nerf it really needs.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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It depends on what you're using the weapon to accomplish, right?  If you're using the Red Hand to top off your focus bar, then clearly weapons that hit more than one target are going to be superior.  If you're focusing on AoE damage, I don't think the Red Hand could hold a candle to a well built Frostseeker build.  But if you're using the Red Hand for single target DPS, it is in my opinion without question unmatched, particularly when built for it.  That's one that I don't see a mathematical case against.  When I play with the Red Hand, I have a total attack cycle of <2 seconds per shot (activation x2, one reload).  At Arquebus base damage, that is ridiculous.

 

Kaylon's analysis disregarded penetration, which is not trivial.  Yes, you can get additional penetration.  But any additional penetration you can get for Aamalina's, you can also get for the Red Hand.  Kaylon's analysis also assumed in the best case scenario, a user of Aamalina's Legacy was also taking advantage of the Red Hand Guilty Conscience, which I have to think is a bug.   A user of Aamalina's Legacy is also going to be less accurate than a user of the Red Hand, assuming we're going with the rapid reload option, which I can't imagine why you wouldn't.  The only advantage I can think of for using Aamalina's legacy is the dual damage type, which I do like a lot.  Pierce damage immune enemies are the big weakness for the Red Hand.

 

The Red Hand has a number of bugs that need to be cleaned up.  The Guilty Conscience should not apply to other weapons.  Twin Slugs affects targets >4m range, which is super annoying.  Double Tap also impacts higher level undead, which appears to me to be a bug, but I can't say for certain.

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Ok you show me frost seeker beats it. If you want to make comments like that you have to back them up. I have played with both weapons and its pretty clear red hand is far better

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kaylon explained how the Aamina's Legacy bow gives superior DPS to the Red Hand here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104928-ansalons-ranged-weapon-tier-list/?p=2085783

 

Other players have run tests and showed that builds using the Kitchen Stove and other non-red-hand weapons can dramatically outperform Red Hand builds and posted the data in these threads:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104892-build-witch-the-banshee-build-very-high-damage-berserkerascendant-rdps-caster/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104924-dps-tests-of-some-classesmulticlasses/

 

Presuming you don't exploit the fact that you can swap the Red Hand around the whole party to give everyone the buff, and just use it "normally" on one character, then the Red Hand is a second-tier ranged weapon at best, but makes up for it in ease of use -- it doesn't require a complex build or positioning micromanagement, and it's got very high Pen so you don't have to think about that part of the game much either. It's not so much overpowered as it is convenient

 

I like it on low to mid (8-15) level ciphers before you manage to collect Eccea's and the Kitchen Stove and other guns that do non-piercing damage, because it's easy to carry an arquebus in one weapon set and a quarterstaff in the other and have two solid "ranged" damage type options. Late game though it's deprecated because the damage boost it gives is insufficient to top out your focus bar on an alpha strike -- you need AoE or fly-through multitarget to do that.

 

I'll agree that the persistent Red Hand bonus should vanish from a character if the weapon is placed into inventory or equipped by a different character. But that's the only nerf it really needs.

 

 

Separately, I looked at those threads, and that's not what they showed at all.  They showed that an Ascendent Cipher that used the Red Hand - at max level - to reach Ascended state generated lower damage overall than other classes.  That was due to reaching Ascended status more slowly than other classes.  I feel like the threads you cited don't address the actual damage of the Red Hand, but rather on the damage an Ascended Cipher is able to do.  I do agree that it is obvious that a Cipher using a weapon with multi-hit capability [or Thunderous Report] should hit Ascended significantly faster than one using the Red Hand, but that doesn't address the question.  

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Separately, I looked at those threads, and that's not what they showed at all.  They showed that an Ascendent Cipher that used the Red Hand - at max level - to reach Ascended state generated lower damage overall than other classes.  That was due to reaching Ascended status more slowly than other classes.  I feel like the threads you cited don't address the actual damage of the Red Hand, but rather on the damage an Ascended Cipher is able to do.  I do agree that it is obvious that a Cipher using a weapon with multi-hit capability [or Thunderous Report] should hit Ascended significantly faster than one using the Red Hand, but that doesn't address the question.  

 

 

The Aamina's Legacy bow posts do specifically address the "more weapon DPS" though.

 

That said, you make a fair point, but isn't "overall damage done by the build as a whole" a much more important question than " weapon damage done" specifically? Weapons are just part of a build -- if the most powerful builds don't use a supposedly "overpowered" weapon, then it probably isn't actually overpowered. I get the distinction you're drawing and it's a fair point but I think framing the question as overall build damage, rather than as only weapon damage specifically, gives the better analysis.

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Respectfully, Kaylon's posts do not address the "more weapon DPS" question, and if anything Kaylon explicitly shows that the Red Hand should be better overall, except against pierce immune enemies.  Remember that his analysis assumed you would be applying the Guilty Conscience boost to the bow, which is clearly a bug.  

 

And also respectfully, the build analyses you posted were for a Cipher using the Red Hand, and not for a character build optimized to use the Red Hand, which would presumably be a Scout or a Wanderer.  I am not 100% sure how to replicate a good DPH test, but open to learning.  You're comparing apples to oranges.

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It depends on what you're using the weapon to accomplish, right?  If you're using the Red Hand to top off your focus bar, then clearly weapons that hit more than one target are going to be superior.  If you're focusing on AoE damage, I don't think the Red Hand could hold a candle to a well built Frostseeker build.  But if you're using the Red Hand for single target DPS, it is in my opinion without question unmatched, particularly when built for it.  That's one that I don't see a mathematical case against.  When I play with the Red Hand, I have a total attack cycle of <2 seconds per shot (activation x2, one reload).  At Arquebus base damage, that is ridiculous.

 

 

 

That's also a fair point. There's definitely still a role for the Red Hand against single targets who have high AR and are not pierce-immune -- that is, boss fights, or well, some boss fights.  But 99% of the game is not boss fights. And if the argument is only "The Red Hand is a strong choice for boss encounters" that's far different discussion from claiming that anyone using it will "out DPS anyone in your party no matter what their build is," or that it's clearly overpowered, etc. 

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And also respectfully, the build analyses you posted were for a Cipher using the Red Hand, and not for a character build optimized to use the Red Hand, which would presumably be a Scout or a Wanderer.  I am not 100% sure how to replicate a good DPH test, but open to learning.  You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

 

I'll admit I'm potentially disprovable on this, but I suspect that if there were any Red Hand builds out there using Scouts or Wanderers or other builds specifically optimized for the Red Hand, and those builds were capable of results similar to the builds posted, someone would probably be posting demo videos about those builds. I have yet to see a better Red Hand build than the ones shared in those posts. It's certainly possible that one exists but assuming the existence of same seems premature.

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I also agree that the Red Hand is not overpowered.  I think it is absolute top tier for single target DPS, but in a total damage world is outclassed by AoE weapons.  That's an important distinction.

 

 

I'd edit this a bit -- I'd add the word "weapon" before "DPS", and maybe add a clause to the effect that it's not overpowered presuming you don't do meta-gamey stuff with it like passing it around the party to give everyone the bonus. My hope is that any upcoming tweaks it gets focus on removing the metagamey stuff and not just nerfing it down into the floor. The arquebus already suffers vs. bows due to only being single-damage-type and the prevalence of pierce-immune enemies.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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I'll admit I'm potentially disprovable on this, but I suspect that if there were any Red Hand builds out there using Scouts or Wanderers or other builds specifically optimized for the Red Hand, and those builds were capable of results similar to the builds posted, someone would probably be posting demo videos about those builds. I have yet to see a better Red Hand build than the ones shared in those posts. It's certainly possible that one exists but assuming the existence of same seems premature.

 

 

I actually retract what I said.  I read through the second thread and saw that the poster did use a Wanderer / Red Hand Build for ~7,000 DPH.  Knowing the poster, that build was almost certainly optimized.  :) 

 

But to be that competitive against builds that primarily AoE says something.

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I'll admit I'm potentially disprovable on this, but I suspect that if there were any Red Hand builds out there using Scouts or Wanderers or other builds specifically optimized for the Red Hand, and those builds were capable of results similar to the builds posted, someone would probably be posting demo videos about those builds. I have yet to see a better Red Hand build than the ones shared in those posts. It's certainly possible that one exists but assuming the existence of same seems premature.

 

 

I actually retract what I said.  I read through the second thread and saw that the poster did use a Wanderer / Red Hand Build for ~7,000 DPH.  Knowing the poster, that build was almost certainly optimized.  :)

 

But to be that competitive against builds that primarily AoE says something.

 

In that test I put the WandereRed hand guy in like bigbillie built at a disadvantage as he was in an extremely heavy "aoe fluff" group. Basically he was running against like the best pure dps in the game in Evoker nuker (spells vs weapons - apples and oranges), a witch and a shaman. I am sure vs the more "mid of the road" dpsers like pure cipher, even the aoe scouts etc he could potentially reach more effectiveness it's just the Evoker was clearly something else nuking every encounter with level 9/8 spells and "stealing" dps from the overall group. Also single target vs multitarget damage is also like "apples vs oranges". Besides you put a red hand wanderer vs an evoker against a big single hp target like Nemnok or some dragon and I think the wanderer will keep up and may do more dps. It's just game is heavily favored for aoe because of the mob pulls at the moment. So klling as many smaller enemies with damage in an area effect is faster. 

It was basically red hand single target damage (in a group setting) vs wizard meteors and minolettas missiles.

To be more specific I briefly contemplated and tested the wanderer with a melee aoe weapon like oathbreakers end and using instruments of pain to treat it as a ranged weapon and I guess that way you can apply turning wheel lash in addition to the weapon. but I think red hand is still more effective because you do get all the reload perks and speed on it. Also Watershapers focus is better on wanderer than blunderbusses if you want aoe damage.

 

Oh and I don't think there is a combo better suited for getting the most out of that weapon than big williy's build. You combine scout driving flight passive with all the monk passive boosts for a weapon that favors a lot of auto attacking  because it it is 1. two-handed (full attacks do little), 2.) and has the best auto attack effect (shoots twice per auto attack). 

Edited by 1TTFFSSE
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You dont need a build with that weapon. Just give it to anyone and you will out DPS anyone in your party guaranteed no matter what your build is.

 

Its about to get nerfed in the next patch i think judging by someone from OBS comments on another thread

I'd put money on Frostseeker outperforming it on literally any character/build in the game, outside of ghosts and pure single target fights (of which there are very few). There are other ranged weapons that are also far superior if you know how to use them.

 

The Red Hand is great for a couple reasons; you can slap it on anyone and it will do good damage, it's attainable fairly early/easily, it can trivialise Vessel fights, and you can use it to give your entire party +20/40% damage.

 

Ok you show me frost seeker beats it. If you want to make comments like that you have to back them up. I have played with both weapons and its pretty clear red hand is far better

 

So here's two videos of clearing out the bottom level of the VTC building, using the exact same build other than changing the armour (Maia's for Red Hand, Miscreant's for Frostseeker). Now the total damage done is virtually the same, which is expected as it was the same fight and tank contributes virtually no damage to a fight. But if you look the the time in combat stat, you will see the Red Hand was ~43 minutes, whereas Frostseeker was ~29 minutes. Or in other words, Frostseeker had ~50% more DPS.

 

The Red Hand:

 

Frostseeker:

 

You dont need a build with that weapon. Just give it to anyone and you will out DPS anyone in your party guaranteed no matter what your build is.

 

Its about to get nerfed in the next patch i think judging by someone from OBS comments on another thread

Because of this statement I opted to use no active abilities, other than the opener.

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