having 20 bonus accuracy equals to....

[Loren Tyr]

It's more than relevant for a number of things. The harder the content, the higher the enemy's armor. Very often you will find yourself in a situation where a poorly chosen spell will do 25% damage if it's a hit due to poor penetration, and full damage if it's a crit.

 

[ SNIP ]

 

(and now you know why the armor/penetration/crit system is flawed, basically accuracy is king, hit to crit is queen, and everything else is mushrooms)

 

 

 

This doesn't track. You can't use an example based on the explicit premise that the spell is poorly chosen to conclude that the system is flawed.

[Lokithecat]

For this reason the highest dps is achieved by ranger + cipher multiclass. Ranger mark + wounding shot + passives is 60 accuracy. Add to it cipher buff +20 accuracy (currently strongest accuracy buff) and you have 80 accuracy advantage which gives you up to 800% more dps than other classes without those buffs. 

 

My Helwalker / Berzerker was punching for 50 on a non crit, so a Ranger + Cipher does 450 damage unarmed?  Wow.

 

Or maybe Barbarians Brute Force (Target Fortitude, instead of Deflection if its lower) is realllly overpowered.

[Esajin]

 

It would be 160%, no? Maybe my math is letting me down but

 

 

Yup, good catch, brain fart on my part.

 

This doesn't track. You can't use an example based on the explicit premise that the spell is poorly chosen to conclude that the system is flawed.

 

It was a "best" case scenario in favor of Accuracy.

 

Priests of Magran for instance don't have a lot of variety with the damage type of their spells. Accuracy is very good for them.

[nemesis205bw]

 

I did some calculations and came to conclusion that having 20 bonus accuracy equals to having around 40% bonus damage or 60%+ on POTD. It is crazy. If your base chance to hit is 50% and with 20 bonus accuracy its about 70%, then that equals 40% more dps.

It doesn't work like that...

I will consider the average situation where your accuracy equal to the enemy's deflection. That means your attacks will be: 15%misses, 35% grazes and 50%hits. If you add 20 accuracy it will become: 30% grazes, 50% hits and 20% crits.

 

In the first scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.35 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.675 + 0.85 * dmg bonuses)

 

In the second scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.3 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses) + .2 * (1.25 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.9 + dmg bonuses)

 

In the case of a ranger/cipher how much dmg bonuses you can have? 60% from weapon, 20% soul whip and maybe 30% from might ie 110%. If we compare the two scenarios the dps increase will be:

(0.9 + 1.1) / (0.675 + 0.85 * 1.1) = 2/1.61 = 1.24

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

 

Obviously depending on the scenario it will be higher or lower but when you compare it to other things that got nerfed for example monk +50% bonus dmg which will translate to only around 20% total damage.

Also you didnt factor armor:

- with higher accuracy you will graze less often which most of the time deals minimum damage due to pen reduction

- with higher accuracy you will crit more often which increases your pen allowing overpen +30% most of the time

- with higher accuracy you will land hits more often and so effects that work on hit that can proc alot of dmg

- with higher accuracy you will be able to proc on crit effects that are devastating

 

The total result including penetration gives as 63% damage increase with your calculations which is even better 

 

In the first scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.35 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses)*0.25 + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.54375 + 0.5875 * dmg bonuses)

 

In the second scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.3 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses)*0.25 + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses) + .2 * (1.25 + +0.3+ dmg bonuses) = base dmg * (1.0875+ 0.775dmg bonuses)

[nemesis205bw]

 

For this reason the highest dps is achieved by ranger + cipher multiclass. Ranger mark + wounding shot + passives is 60 accuracy. Add to it cipher buff +20 accuracy (currently strongest accuracy buff) and you have 80 accuracy advantage which gives you up to 800% more dps than other classes without those buffs. 

 

My Helwalker / Berzerker was punching for 50 on a non crit, so a Ranger + Cipher does 450 damage unarmed?  Wow.

 

Or maybe Barbarians Brute Force (Target Fortitude, instead of Deflection if its lower) is realllly overpowered.

it was best scenario. Normally its around 50% more dps on normal enemies and 200% more on strong enemies

Edited June 6, 2018 by nemesis205bw

[Kaylon]

Obviously depending on the scenario it will be higher or lower but when you compare it to other things that got nerfed for example monk +50% bonus dmg which will translate to only around 20% total damage.

 

Also you didnt factor armor:

- with higher accuracy you will graze less often which most of the time deals minimum damage due to pen reduction

- with higher accuracy you will crit more often which increases your pen allowing overpen +30% most of the time

- with higher accuracy you will land hits more often and so effects that work on hit that can proc alot of dmg

- with higher accuracy you will be able to proc on crit effects that are devastating

 

The total result including penetration gives as 63% damage increase with your calculations which is even better 

 

In the first scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.35 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses)*0.25 + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.54375 + 0.5875 * dmg bonuses)

 

In the second scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.3 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses)*0.25 + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses) + .2 * (1.25 + +0.3+ dmg bonuses) = base dmg * (1.0875+ 0.775dmg bonuses)

 

There's no penetration reduction due to grazes.

 

Over-penetration doesn't happen most of the time, your penetration should be higher than enemy's armor by at least 33% which rarely happens vs enemies of your level. You can I suppose add 0.15 to the criticals bonus (if we consider it happens half of the time and we don't have blunted criticals...)

 

The only way to go over 50% hits is through graze to hit conversion, it has nothing to do with accuracy.

 

Yes, there are a few procs on crits, most of the time ccs/debuffs (which can also be resisted) and from time to time more powerful spells with a very small chance to trigger. But if you have a weapon with a devastating proc in mind we can do a more in depth analysis.

[nemesis205bw]

we can do a more in depth analysis.

Yes we could but at the end the conclusion is apparent: 20 bonus acc is much better than for example +50% bonus elemental damage most of the time due to how it works especially on classes like rogue which has alot of bonus damage. When you factor in on hit procs from weapons and abilities and being able to actually deal damage on higher armored enemies due to pen on crit, it's a no brainer.

 

Also spells are affected by it in much better way because having +60 accuracy on whisper of treason after 3 sec in combat is extremely valuable.

 

All of those benefits that acc offers are exponentially better on POTD.

Edited June 8, 2018 by nemesis205bw

[Kaylon]

 

we can do a more in depth analysis.

Yes we could but at the end the conclusion is apparent: 20 bonus acc is much better than for example +50% bonus elemental damage most of the time due to how it works especially on classes like rogue which has alot of bonus damage. When you factor in on hit procs from weapons and abilities and being able to actually deal damage on higher armored enemies due to pen on crit, it's a no brainer.

 

Also spells are affected by it in much better way because having +60 accuracy on whisper of treason after 3 sec in combat is extremely valuable.

 

All of those benefits that acc offers are exponentially better on POTD.

 

50% elemental damage increases your dps by a flat 50% always superior to 20acc, that's a no brainer. Like I already said, procs are mostly irrelevant, unless you can provide an example because personally I don't see one. Also the first thing you should do is to debuff enemy's armor or pick a weapon which can penetrate it - if you expect criticals to compensate your lack of penetration then you do something wrong.

 

Yes, for spells, accuracy is more important (because there are fewer ways to increase their dps) but the topic was about ranged dps...

Edited June 8, 2018 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Yes we could but at the end the conclusion is apparent: 20 bonus acc is much better than for example +50% bonus elemental damage most of the time[...]

This is simply not correct - in two ways:

 

- it's not apparent

- it's not even the case

[kmbogd]

Accuracy by it's own does not mean much, it only has meaning relative to a particular target's deflection (or other defense in case of spells). So, IMO any analysis that does not consider the pair Acurracy-TargetDeflection is not meaningful enough.

 

This being said, considering as premise that we would like to analyze the case when the accuracy is identical (or very close) to the target's deflection then my calculations have shown that:

• the 50% lash is always better then an extra +20 Acc right around the region where we have an AR equal to penetration
• from then on comes a small window when the extra +20 Acc has the lead
• finally, for large enough enemy AR  the 50% lash is again better.

So, it's something like this:

 

lash lash lash lash lash lash acc acc acc acc lash lash lash .....

 

As you see, in the general case it looks like the +50% lash is better.

 

Also take into account that this happens with the current lash dmg formula which I believe is bugged: penetration bonus/malus is applied multiplicatively instead of additively like for the base attack. So right now, in the cases that matter (tougher enemies with more than petty AR) lash dmg equates to less than what we normally expect from it. If they fix the formula for lash we might even get that +50% lash will always be better than +20 Acc given our original assumption (starting accuracy is equal to target's deflection).

Edited June 8, 2018 by kmbogd