Aloth: Opinions

[Slotharingia]

 

 

Fassina comes out with some pretty hilarious comments on Arkemyr, and leaving him kind of suggests she's not that dutiful (as well as some other snippets you pick up about her). Ydwin - dedicated to her studies yes, but pretty into the whole experimental stuff. She seems more independent than "dutiful" to me.

Not dutiful perhaps, but definitely more serious than most male companions. I don't see these two goofing around much either.

 

I dunno if I'd call Ydwin "dutiful" or "overly serious" myself . She's more of an rogue "wild card" animancer hell-bent on survival, given her backstory. She's "dutiful" only beacuse she doesn't wish to hurt anyone with her research. Hurting herself is a different matter. And she can definately take a joke and dish one out too. Her sense of humour is rather subdued, but she's definately not a humorless stick-in-the-mud like for instance Pallegina. Literally first thing she does when she meets you is to gush about Old Vailian fashion and her tailoring hobby like an overexcited schoolgirl. She also likes to sing aloud for no reason when no-one is looking, although she has no singing voice - at least according to Mordwyr. I really wish she was a full companion - she would have been a excellent foil to Aloth.

As for no "goofy female companions" - where does Xoti fit into that? She is at times one step removed from a Looney Tunes cartoon with her childish behaviour. And she clearly doesn't realize the consequences of her soul harvesting due to her blind zealotry - so there goes the "dutiful" aspect.

But I get what you're saying. There is a running trend of "strong female characters" in various media that usually translates into "humorless, stuck-up woman with no strong personality traits or actual flaws - beacuse by God we cannot portray a woman as flawed", while men can be portrayed as flawed and incompetent without a bigger problem.  It's a certain double standard that I wish went away and never came back - beacuse good, complex characters should be just that - good characters, no matter the gender.

...I am going to get yell at for this post, aren't I?

 

I agree with you.  Xoti isn't exactly ungoofy, but her zealotry ends up stuffing her in the Duty Over All Category. However, the sidekicks don't fit into the category, or have the potential not to, so it's a pity they weren't proper companions.

[Slotharingia]

 

There does seem to be a general concept of males being more laid back/self confident (at least superficially)/accepting/able to question authority/possibly more capable of empathy?

 

More laid back and confident, that I see. At least in Serafen and Tekehu, considering how it seems that Edér still hasn't found what he was looking for by the beginning of Deadfire.

 

Empathy is also not a given for all. I can see it in Tekehu very clearly, but Edér is probably the least empathic person ever (*that* Iselmyr dialogue, anyone?). A shame he didn't learn anything in that regard, as he was already that careless in the original Pillars. I'm also not sure he learned a lesson this time around, so he could certainly use a bit of character development there!

 

I think the companions as a whole are good characters, and interesting to interact with. But it is indeed a bit of a shame that we didn't get a shady/flamboyant female companion to balance it all out better. Xoti is way off the goofy charts, though. I think of all the companions in all the games, I like her the least. 

 

Eder falls into the category of laid back superficially. His behaviour to Aloth is terrible, but he does have the animal thing going, plus it was usually him in POE1 who was worried about the Watcher, he gives you talks about helping people when you gain rep, obsesses over helping the kid of some woman he hasn't seen in years, etc, so he definitely has empathy, just - not for Aloth. I'm not sure I can even speculate as to why. Possibly he genuinely prefers Iselmyr to such an extent it makes him want Aloth to go away, or he can't handle the strangeness of two people in one and deals with it in that unpleasant way. Or something else.

[Yria]

he definitely has empathy, just - not for Aloth.

 

I don't know, he was also pretty rude to Hiravias and Pallegina on occasions too, without even realising that what he was saying was somehow wrong. Also, that painted chicken story from his childhood: even now as an adult he still doesn't really see that the thing they did to that farmer wasn't exactly nice.

 

I think Eder is an interesting example of a good-natured person who at the same time seriously lacks empathy.

[Slotharingia]

 

he definitely has empathy, just - not for Aloth.

 

I don't know, he was also pretty rude to Hiravias and Pallegina on occasions too, without even realising that what he was saying was somehow wrong. Also, that painted chicken story from his childhood: even now as an adult he still doesn't really see that the thing they did to that farmer wasn't exactly nice.

 

I think Eder is an interesting example of a good-natured person who at the same time seriously lacks empathy.

 

I don't remember any of those scenes. Mind you, I usually only cart Aloth and Eder around all the time in P1, so that would be why.

[Knoebroesel]

Eder falls into the category of laid back superficially. His behaviour to Aloth is terrible, but he does have the animal thing going, plus it was usually him in POE1 who was worried about the Watcher, he gives you talks about helping people when you gain rep, obsesses over helping the kid of some woman he hasn't seen in years, etc, so he definitely has empathy, just - not for Aloth. I'm not sure I can even speculate as to why. Possibly he genuinely prefers Iselmyr to such an extent it makes him want Aloth to go away, or he can't handle the strangeness of two people in one and deals with it in that unpleasant way. Or something else.

 

 

Mmh... that is an interesting point. Maybe it's more a certain thoughtlessness rather than complete lack of empathy?

 

As Yria mentioned, he wasn't just terrible to Aloth but also pretty terrible to Hiravias, too, never truly realising how he offended them when he did with his careless actions or words. It is a large part of who Edér is, but seriously, whenever such a thing happens in Deadfire I sigh heavily because I wish he had seen *some* development in that department.

 

Edit:

One example for the Hiravias scenes is that Edér said something terribly racist in one of their dialogues. The next time, he walks up to Hiravias to say sorry, that he didn't mean it... and immediately after that asks Hiravias if he can pet him, like he was a dog. o.o

 

It was a classic Edér, but very much highlights how thoughtless he could be, and insensitive. The buying-Iselmyr-a-drink is also another great example of what I mean.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Knoebroesel

[CENIC]

I think it says something about US too, that Eder's ruggedly handsome good looks are enough for us to try and explain away his behavior so it is still "okay" to be attracted to him.

[wRAR]

 

As an example, we'll use Edér.  If you remember Edér from the original Pillars of Eternity, you may recall that he has a soft spot for animals, has a troubled relationship with his god, Eothas, and doesn't think highly of zealots.  You may also remember that he has an unwitting tendency to express racist attitudes toward orlans.  In mechanical terms, we create tags for the following behaviors/attitudes: Cruel to Animals, Kind to Animals, Pro-Eothasian, Zealous, and Racist.

(The Racist quality isn't in the final game though)

[CENIC]

(The Racist quality isn't in the final game though)

Only because they didn't want to ruin good ol' boy Eder for us by throwing it in our faces.

Anti-racism is a tag for Serafen and Pallegina and they react to it when Eder speaks sometimes.

[Slotharingia]

 

Eder falls into the category of laid back superficially. His behaviour to Aloth is terrible, but he does have the animal thing going, plus it was usually him in POE1 who was worried about the Watcher, he gives you talks about helping people when you gain rep, obsesses over helping the kid of some woman he hasn't seen in years, etc, so he definitely has empathy, just - not for Aloth. I'm not sure I can even speculate as to why. Possibly he genuinely prefers Iselmyr to such an extent it makes him want Aloth to go away, or he can't handle the strangeness of two people in one and deals with it in that unpleasant way. Or something else.

 

 

Mmh... that is an interesting point. Maybe it's more a certain thoughtlessness rather than complete lack of empathy?

 

As Yria mentioned, he wasn't just terrible to Aloth but also pretty terrible to Hiravias, too, never truly realising how he offended them when he did with his careless actions or words. It is a large part of who Edér is, but seriously, whenever such a thing happens in Deadfire I sigh heavily because I wish he had seen *some* development in that department.

 

Edit:

One example for the Hiravias scenes is that Edér said something terribly racist in one of their dialogues. The next time, he walks up to Hiravias to say sorry, that he didn't mean it... and immediately after that asks Hiravias if he can pet him, like he was a dog. o.o

 

It was a classic Edér, but very much highlights how thoughtless he could be, and insensitive. The buying-Iselmyr-a-drink is also another great example of what I mean.

 

Ugh. I cringed reading about Hirvais and the buying Iselmyr a drink scene always makes me cringe.

 

I think it says something about US too, that Eder's ruggedly handsome good looks are enough for us to try and explain away his behavior so it is still "okay" to be attracted to him.

YES, why DO we like him so much that the well-meaning teddy bear is the image he generally has with people (including myself). ö

[Slotharingia]

 

(The Racist quality isn't in the final game though)

Only because they didn't want to ruin good ol' boy Eder for us by throwing it in our faces.

Anti-racism is a tag for Serafen and Pallegina and they react to it when Eder speaks sometimes.

 

Although Pallegina is racist towards her own self too. Godlikes aren't really a race or species or whatever in the usual sense, but still.

[Skazz]

Wait, are people really saying Eder is some kind of close-minded hick? Huh? Since when?

 

Eder isn't racist, or at least not in a malicious sort of way. He just had had horribly narrow and farm-sized horizons until he met the Watcher.  The man is a genuinely good soul, but he doesn't register that he sometimes offends other people without him even knowing. It's a bit like Minsc complimenting Mazzy in BG2: when Minsc says that Mazzy is an absolutely amazing fighter for something as tiny as her, he means it. It's not an insult, and there's no hidden agenda to his words. It's genuine if tone-dead praise, and Mazzy catches onto this before lashing out at him in full force. In that regard, Eder is very Minsc-like: insensitive but innocent.

 

Also, notice that by Deadfire Eder has come to realize that he tends to say improper things by accident and actively tries to rectify it. If you have him and Tekehu in party, he sheepishly asks the fish man whether there are any sea creatures he shouldn't eat in front of him.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Skazz

[CENIC]

 

Eder isn't racist, or at least not in a malicious sort of way.

People who deal with racism every day don't care if it is malicious or not. It gets tiresome.

 

He just had had horribly narrow and farm-sized horizons until he met the Watcher. The man is a genuinely good soul, but he doesn't register that he sometimes offends other people without him even knowing.

Again, people who deal with racism EVERY DAY don't want to hear excuses for the people perpetuating that racism.

 

If you're Meadow Folk or Wood Elf, Eder is a great buddy and you can't imagine anyone speaking ill of him. But can Orlan Watchers say the same?

[Skazz]

My main character was a Wild Orlan chanter in both games and I had no issues. Context and intent is important.

 

I don't recall Eder ever speaking from a position of some weird irrational prejudice or horrible superiority-based mindset. He's never known anything else, but more importantly, he knows now - and he's learning, which I think is the most important thing here. He knows he's doing wrong by all those people he misunderstands, and genuinely tries to improve his behavior whenever he can, like the Tekehu situation I mentioned above.

[CENIC]

My main character was a Wild Orlan chanter in both games and I had no issues. Context and intent is important.

 

Did you try expressing romantic interest in him as an Orlan? That was a pretty "WTF!" moment.

[Slotharingia]

My main character was a Wild Orlan chanter in both games and I had no issues. Context and intent is important.

 

I don't recall Eder ever speaking from a position of some weird irrational prejudice or horrible superiority-based mindset. He's never known anything else, but more importantly, he knows now - and he's learning, which I think is the most important thing here. He knows he's doing wrong by all those people he misunderstands, and genuinely tries to improve his behavior whenever he can, like the Tekehu situation I mentioned above.

My first POE1 char was also an orlan. I'm pretty sure he doesn't say stuff like that to the actual Watcher - if he does I was either very unobservant or didn't have him in the party enough - but still, some of those things are pretty harsh and in Aloth's case, he still does it in Deadfire, just less.

[Slotharingia]

 

My main character was a Wild Orlan chanter in both games and I had no issues. Context and intent is important.

 

Did you try expressing romantic interest in him as an Orlan? That was a pretty "WTF!" moment.

 

What happens?

[Mikeymoonshine]

 

 

(The Racist quality isn't in the final game though)

Only because they didn't want to ruin good ol' boy Eder for us by throwing it in our faces.

Anti-racism is a tag for Serafen and Pallegina and they react to it when Eder speaks sometimes.

 

Although Pallegina is racist towards her own self too. Godlikes aren't really a race or species or whatever in the usual sense, but still.

 

 

I don't get the impression she hates godlike at all. She hates the way society views her and other godlike for being godlike.

[Baltic]

 

 

My main character was a Wild Orlan chanter in both games and I had no issues. Context and intent is important.

 Did you try expressing romantic interest in him as an Orlan? That was a pretty "WTF!" moment.

What happens?

Skip to 3:07

https://youtu.be/8Dr7m0YbXyU

[Aridea]

I don't get the impression she hates godlike at all. She hates the way society views her and other godlike for being godlike.

 

Yeah I thought she hates making gods out of godlikes, worshipping them, putting them above others, and generally treating them differently. I'd say its inverse racism. She wants everyone to be treated equally, godlike, orlan, elf, dwarf, or human.

[Yria]

Looks like Aloth's dispositions got fixed in the beta patch. He no longer gets two confilicting tags at once. This is what he has on "Destroy the Leaden Key" route:

https://i.gyazo.com/82be23681a5b82a5967eddfc05cf3926.png

Not sure what to think of it, though, it might be even harder to please him now as there are only two things he actually likes. Aloth, you grumpy elf 

[Tarlonniel]

The guy is really playing hard to get.

[Aramintai]

Looks like Aloth's dispositions got fixed in the beta patch. He no longer gets two confilicting tags at once. This is what he has on "Destroy the Leaden Key" route:

https://i.gyazo.com/82be23681a5b82a5967eddfc05cf3926.png

Not sure what to think of it, though, it might be even harder to please him now as there are only two things he actually likes. Aloth, you grumpy elf 

Yea, that's a sloppy fix - removing the bugged one while not giving anything in return. He has waaaay too few dispositions compared to other companions and most of them are negatives.

I mean, can you compare his 5 to these?

Edited June 2, 2018 by Aramintai

[Slotharingia]

Ugh. Why can't they give him more variety? Tekehu has like 5 times the amount of things he likes and only 2 dislikes xD How often does the autonomy thing even come up? Most of the time when I pick stuff that could be interpreted as that, he doesn't react. Anti tradition, pro atuonomy and pro duty also still seem to conflict to me, as the first two imply questioning authority while the last does the opposite? I think he should be given resourceful/skulduggery, pro progressive, pro autonomy, anti tradition, anti religion, anti pride if he's anti leaden key. His irresponsible triggers are mostly weird.

[Skazz]

Aloth isn't pro progressive, though. He dislikes animancy even if he stays anti-Leaden Key.

[Yria]

He has waaaay too few dispositions compared to other companions and most of them are negatives.

I mean, can you compare his 5 to these?

 

I know right? After seeing his 5 dispositions I went to check the other companions thinking that maybe they received some tweaks too. And then it hit me how very few dispositions Aloth has in comparison to the rest of them. It wasn't as noticeable when he also had the additional bugged one, but now it's glaringly obvious. 

 

I'm all for companions having different number of likes and dislikes as their personalities are quite different, too. But Aloth is taking it too far.