Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?

[bugarup]

By the way, there is nothing in the ending slides that says the Rauatai abolishes the caste system. The closest is this -- "Those Huana who trade caste and prize-share for Rauataian unity and striving prosper." 

[Taevyr]

 

Do you have a screenshot? Because the way I remember it when the undersecretary says that is no way for their employee to act she rebukes it with something like  "Good thing I'm not one then", which made me think "Wait what? What's going on here then?". Or is she referring to the fact that she is just a trainee and not a real employee?

 

You're not wrong. She does say she's not one of the officers:

https://youtu.be/EG-OICICgqQ?t=135

Looks like she's just a local greeter or somesuch whom RDC guy tries to train being a Rauataian. Her mocking him goes along just fine with those other guys by the longhouse who don't feel like they should be grateful to Rauatains forcing themselves into their island.

 

The "guys by the longhouse" is literally a brother and sister having a serious argument about whether the RDC is good or bad for their tribe. Sure, the anti-rauatai side may have a point in warning that they should remain distinct from Rauatai, but pretending there's a notable group of Huana up there complaining about how things were better before is ridiculous.

[Taevyr]

By the way, there is nothing in the ending slides that says the Rauatai abolishes the caste system. The closest is this -- "Those Huana who trade caste and prize-share for Rauataian unity and striving prosper." 

They try... by razing the gullet after evacuating its inhabitants, and rebuilding it better. It's a silly attempt to root it out without understanding the deeper problems, but at least they try, and it's more than what the Huana managed. One thing i also found in the ending slides is that, should the slavers stay in business, the only factions who make an effort to remove them are Rauatai and Aeldys, with Aeldys never quite succeeding.

 

Should anyone else want to consult the ending slides, most, if not all of them, are here: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Pillars_of_Eternity_II:_Deadfire_endings

 

EDIT: misremembered the Rauataians rebuilding the gullet better, so simply an attempt to root out social injustice by force. No sense pretending it'll work, but i suppose at least they're trying.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Taevyr

[Aramintai]

The "guys by the longhouse" is literally a brother and sister having a serious argument about whether the RDC is good or bad for their tribe. Sure, the anti-rauatai side may have a point in warning that they should remain distinct from Rauatai, but pretending there's a notable group of Huana up there complaining about how things were better before is ridiculous.

POE2 isn't exactly an rpg where there are hundreds of npcs roaming around town. We can only work with what we are given. And those guys give a certain impression.

[Taevyr]

 

The "guys by the longhouse" is literally a brother and sister having a serious argument about whether the RDC is good or bad for their tribe. Sure, the anti-rauatai side may have a point in warning that they should remain distinct from Rauatai, but pretending there's a notable group of Huana up there complaining about how things were better before is ridiculous.

POE2 isn't exactly an rpg where there are hundreds of npcs roaming around town. We can only work with what we are given. And those guys give a certain impression.

 

Indeed: they give the impression of an ongoing discussion among the natives whether their life under Rauatai is an improvement or not. Certainly not an impression of the natives leaning towards one side or the other.

[Aramintai]

One thing i also found in the ending slides is that, should the slavers stay in business, the only factions who make an effort to remove them are Rauatai and Aeldys, with Aeldys never quite succeeding.

 

EDIT: misremembered the Rauataians rebuilding the gullet better, so simply an attempt to root out social injustice by force. No sense pretending it'll work, but i suppose at least they're trying.

 

Btw, RDC didn't really care about slavers at Crookspur, what they actually cared about was the fort they were inhabiting, which they wanted to have for their own. They admitted it after you kill the slavers and the Rauataian fleet promptly moving in there.

 

Razing a problematic district to the ground without actually solving the problem why it is problematic just means those problems will appear somewhere else. But I guess they don't really care about those problems either, thinking all the locals will convert into law abiding Rauataian citizens anyway. I think the solution provided by the Huana themselves with the help of Dawnstars is the best one for the Gullet.

[Aramintai]

Indeed: they give the impression of an ongoing discussion among the natives whether their life under Rauatai is an improvement or not. Certainly not an impression of the natives leaning towards one side or the other.

That's what you have gathered from Sayuka examples, I've gathered something else.

[Taevyr]

 

One thing i also found in the ending slides is that, should the slavers stay in business, the only factions who make an effort to remove them are Rauatai and Aeldys, with Aeldys never quite succeeding.

 

EDIT: misremembered the Rauataians rebuilding the gullet better, so simply an attempt to root out social injustice by force. No sense pretending it'll work, but i suppose at least they're trying.

Btw, RDC didn't really care about slavers at Crookspur, what they actually cared about was the fort they were inhabiting, which they wanted to have for their own. They admitted it after you kill the slavers and the Rauataian fleet promptly moving in there.

 

Razing a problematic district to the ground without actually solving the problem why it is problematic just means those problems will appear somewhere else. But I guess they don't really care about those problems either, thinking all the locals will convert into law abiding Rauataian citizens anyway. I think the solution provided by the Huana themselves with the help of Dawnstars is the best one for the Gullet.

 

 

Have you even bothered to read the slide, which only appears if you didn't get rid of the slavers for Rauatai? Wait, I'll quote it for you

 

Once Hazanui Karū has fortified Rauatai's outposts and established dominance over Deadfire, she turns her attention to the slavers infesting Crookspur.

 

Though they have surrounded their walls with cannons and filled their harbor with ships, they are no match for Rauatai's fleet. The hazanui liberates the slaves and executes their captors.

 

Note that Rauatai clears out the slavers after they've established their dominance over the deadfire. If you want to check the slides out for yourself, i linked them in an earlier post on page 9.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Taevyr

[Aramintai]

Note that Rauatai clears out the slavers after they've established their dominance over the deadfire. If you want to check the slides out for yourself, i linked them in an earlier post on page 9.

Didn't see that slide before, but good for them. I usually kill slavers in the game though. Slavers and pirates are a menace.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

While power often corrupts, and do understand how things need be done. I have to agree wasn't happy about most end faction's missions.

 

Honestly there should be ways to do jobs don't mean killing innocent people pointlessly. I just refused to do most them from principles.

 

Yeah was ironic that a pirate was better then all other faction leaders. Personally by that point wanted to assassinate all but one faction leader.

 

No I not perfect human and I am willing to do what feel is right even if I have get hands dirty but just couldn't do what they wanted.

[Yria]

https://youtu.be/EG-OICICgqQ?t=135

Looks like she's just a local greeter or somesuch whom RDC guy tries to train being a Rauataian. 

 

Thank you, thought I was going nuts and imagining things that are not actually in the game. It was my impression, too, that Tebe is just a local greeter unaffiliated with RDC.

 

I don't think "RDC officer" means "Huana forcibly conscripted to do stuff".

 

Problem is, she clearly states that she is not their officer. Which makes me wonder why the guy is pesturing her at all. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Yria

[Tagaziel]

Not like that, but it probably means that Deadfire's water and land is controlled by the Rauatai so Huana can't just sail away to some uninhabited island and live without their influence, as pretty soon there won't be any. Atsura made it clear that under them Deadfire's land won't go to waste. And where are you getting these obscene population numbers, btw?

The guidebook, which gives the total number of Huana scattered across the Archipelago at ten million - and even at that figure, a fraction of the archipelago is settled. The assumption that the archipelago, which spans a thousand miles according to lore, likely more once I finish calculating the size based on data and coordinates on the world map, can be settled practically overnight strains credibility.

 

Because there is an example in Sayuka. Unlike VTC who prefer to be neighbors with Huana, RDC prefers to dismantle the old and building their new.

 

Which is a military outpost housing the empire's top-secret research. If I walked into Andrews AFB, would I be correct in judging America to be a militarized junta where everyone lives in barracks?

 

By the way, there is nothing in the ending slides that says the Rauatai abolishes the caste system. The closest is this -- "Those Huana who trade caste and prize-share for Rauataian unity and striving prosper."

 

They don't abolish it by force - they simply allow Huana to choose a different life, which is far more effective than blowing **** up and forcing social change at gunpoint.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Tagaziel

[Karkarov]

Once Hazanui Karū has fortified Rauatai's outposts and established dominance over Deadfire, she turns her attention to the slavers infesting Crookspur.

 

Though they have surrounded their walls with cannons and filled their harbor with ships, they are no match for Rauatai's fleet. The hazanui liberates the slaves and executes their captors.

Note that Rauatai clears out the slavers after they've established their dominance over the deadfire. If you want to check the slides out for yourself, i linked them in an earlier post on page 9.

You understand that they still want the fort right?  They have not "established their dominance over the deadfire" until all their enemies are dead.  In the mind of Ruatai, once they choose to conquer a place anyone who is not Ruatai is the enemy.  They either have to be subjugated and converted, or killed.  It is nice they free the slaves to be subjugated to Ruatai rule, but don't pretend that is the primary motivation, regardless of what the ending slide leaves unsaid.

 

Edit: Seems like many in this thread don't understand how long term subjugation and cultural assimilation actually work.  Yes, they let the Huana continue to live as they do now, but say hey you can come switch to our way too, then lay out all the benefits of such.  Considering the "you will be reincarnated as a Mataru" bit no longer applies the caste system is looking pretty unattractive to the Roparu I bet.

 

Then after 1-2 generations you keep this up.  One day probably in 50 years or so you wake up and the realize 90%+ have all converted and the Huana die hards are considered a fringe group and just myopic old people too stuck in their ways to live in the now.  Give it 4 generations and it will probably be something like "Oh the Huana?  Didn't we learn about them in the museum?  There are still some around on really remote islands?!  That's crazy!"

Edited May 28, 2018 by Karkarov

[Tagaziel]

Edit: Seems like many in this thread don't understand how long term subjugation and cultural assimilation actually work.  Yes, they let the Huana continue to live as they do now, but say hey you can come switch to our way too, then lay out all the benefits of such.  Considering the "you will be reincarnated as a Mataru" bit no longer applies the caste system is looking pretty unattractive to the Roparu I bet.

 

Then after 1-2 generations you keep this up.  One day probably in 50 years or so you wake up and the realize 90%+ have all converted and the Huana die hards are considered a fringe group and just myopic old people too stuck in their ways to live in the now.  Give it 4 generations and it will probably be something like "Oh the Huana?  Didn't we learn about them in the museum?  There are still some around on really remote islands?!  That's crazy!"

So basically a regular historical process we have been always observing since the dawn of time? You're basically describing what happened over the past one hundred years to our civilization, together with a tremendous shift in ethics and morals. Barring reactionary margins, nobody is really bothered by the loss of eugenics, rise of feminism, or vaccines, to name a few.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Tagaziel

[Casper]

Because there is an example in Sayuka. Unlike VTC who prefer to be neighbors with Huana, RDC prefers to dismantle the old and building their new.

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

[Taevyr]

 

Because there is an example in Sayuka. Unlike VTC who prefer to be neighbors with Huana, RDC prefers to dismantle the old and building their new.

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

 

I recall the same thing. Not to mention the Rauataians have two millenia of expertise weathering storms, so I imagine they simply rebuilt the huts in a way they know is better at weathering storms.

[Karkarov]

 

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

I recall the same thing. Not to mention the Rauataians have two millenia of expertise weathering storms, so I imagine they simply rebuilt the huts in a way they know is better at weathering storms.

You are both correct, that is exactly what they did.  And they did it by completely disregarding what the indigenous population wanted, and completely ignoring their culture.  Because Rauatai knows better.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Karkarov

[Casper]

 

 

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

I recall the same thing. Not to mention the Rauataians have two millenia of expertise weathering storms, so I imagine they simply rebuilt the huts in a way they know is better at weathering storms.

You are both correct, that is exactly what they did.  And they did it by completely disregarding what the indigenous population wanted, and completely ignoring their culture.  Because Rauatai knows better.

 

i'm not exactly arguing against that point, per say... i just think it's possible that the RDC figured expending resources on a single large structure was more efficient then rebuilding the entire village as it was. now, it's also quite... or even more likely that it was also an attempt to force the huana out of their caste system, though there are potentially other reasons for building the longhouse over rebuilding the entire village.

[Katarack21]

 

 

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

I recall the same thing. Not to mention the Rauataians have two millenia of expertise weathering storms, so I imagine they simply rebuilt the huts in a way they know is better at weathering storms.

You are both correct, that is exactly what they did.  And they did it by completely disregarding what the indigenous population wanted, and completely ignoring their culture.  Because Rauatai knows better.

 

Truth. It's reminiscent of the British colonial rule over India and their "civilising mission".

[Tagaziel]

 

Because there is an example in Sayuka. Unlike VTC who prefer to be neighbors with Huana, RDC prefers to dismantle the old and building their new.

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

 

I'll make a point of covering it today for the wiki and get at THE TRUTH. But yeah, that's likely what Rauatai did (bonus points for putting Mataru and Roparu together, to spite the former).

[KDubya]

 

 

 

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

I recall the same thing. Not to mention the Rauataians have two millenia of expertise weathering storms, so I imagine they simply rebuilt the huts in a way they know is better at weathering storms.

You are both correct, that is exactly what they did.  And they did it by completely disregarding what the indigenous population wanted, and completely ignoring their culture.  Because Rauatai knows better.

 

Truth. It's reminiscent of the British colonial rule over India and their "civilising mission".

 

 

 

Exactly and that is why the Rauitai are the best long term benefit for the DeadFire. A civilized modern empire is better than stone age savages with oppressive cultures.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

iirc, the RDC didn't tear down anything. there was some kind of disaster (storm, tsunami or something) that leveled most of their huts. and instead of rebuilding the village to the huana's satisfaction, the rdc built them the longhouse instead. perhaps it was just a more rational use of resources? build a single large building, instead of a village of smaller ones?

I recall the same thing. Not to mention the Rauataians have two millenia of expertise weathering storms, so I imagine they simply rebuilt the huts in a way they know is better at weathering storms.

You are both correct, that is exactly what they did.  And they did it by completely disregarding what the indigenous population wanted, and completely ignoring their culture.  Because Rauatai knows better.

 

Truth. It's reminiscent of the British colonial rule over India and their "civilising mission".

 

 

 

Exactly and that is why the Rauitai are the best long term benefit for the DeadFire. A civilized modern empire is better than stone age savages with oppressive cultures.

 

Savages? Really? And stone age--have you *SEEN* Neketaka?!

[Karkarov]

Savages? Really? And stone age--have you *SEEN* Neketaka?!

Maybe he doesn't like fish statues?

[sutr]

 

unless you had eothas use his remaining strength to create a safe harbor for the displaced souls, until a more permanent solution can be found.

 

Kind, but not pragmatic. I think giving people an inspiration that leads to incredible rate of innovations and insight may actually bring that permanent solution way faster. I guess it all comes down to how you roleplay your Watcher. My Watcher is pro-Galawain/Magran/Abydon who believes in strength and strengthening of kith.

 

 

Unless it involves destroying an oppressive culture that stifles innovation because that is wrong.

[Katarack21]

 

Not like that, but it probably means that Deadfire's water and land is controlled by the Rauatai so Huana can't just sail away to some uninhabited island and live without their influence, as pretty soon there won't be any. Atsura made it clear that under them Deadfire's land won't go to waste. And where are you getting these obscene population numbers, btw?

The guidebook, which gives the total number of Huana scattered across the Archipelago at ten million - and even at that figure, a fraction of the archipelago is settled. The assumption that the archipelago, which spans a thousand miles according to lore, likely more once I finish calculating the size based on data and coordinates on the world map, can be settled practically overnight strains credibility.

 

Because there is an example in Sayuka. Unlike VTC who prefer to be neighbors with Huana, RDC prefers to dismantle the old and building their new.

 

Which is a military outpost housing the empire's top-secret research. If I walked into Andrews AFB, would I be correct in judging America to be a militarized junta where everyone lives in barracks?

 

By the way, there is nothing in the ending slides that says the Rauatai abolishes the caste system. The closest is this -- "Those Huana who trade caste and prize-share for Rauataian unity and striving prosper."

 

They don't abolish it by force - they simply allow Huana to choose a different life, which is far more effective than blowing **** up and forcing social change at gunpoint.

 

Let us not forget: Rauatai's first action in the Deadfire *was a full-scale military invasion*. One where they *massacred* the dominant tribe in the region and began moving on the capital city almost *immediately*.

 

Rauatai isn't some friendly convert-through-friendship group. That's their *secondary* plan, after military conquest and dictatorship *failed*.