Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?

[flamesium]

What still eludes me how was the flow of souls was handled before the creation of the wheel? 

This is the million dollar question. We don’t know and I’m not 100% convinced the writers do either.

 

Did the Engwithans irreversibly break the natural cycle when they made The Wheel? Did they make The Wheel *because* the natural cycle was failing?

 

Will a natural mechanism reassert itself with The Wheel broken or has the world immediately plunged into a global Hollowborn crisis? Only the super bad Rymyrgand ending suggests the latter happens immediately and irreversibly.

 

It’s hard to make any kind of informed decision at the end of the game, because the required information is unavailable. We’re just left to make a blind guess, not that it particularly matters in the end, unless you deliberately talk Eothas into ending everything.

[Taevyr]

The Principi very much are a paramilitary group. They have a clear chain of command and hierarchical structure and most certainly are arrayed in opposition to the ruling powers of the day. But it seems your basic stance is if the people saying what you can and can't do have land to call their own which then lends legitimacy of their dictates of what is and isn't acceptable behavior; is that the main thrust of it?

 

The lawfulness is part of it, but the main gist is this: The other factions would likely deal with deserters by way of execution as well, which is not something I oppose, even with Aeldys doing it; Aeldys, however, doesn't just execute them, but goes and hangs their lighted skulls of her castle as a twisted joke/warning as well. And while I may be wrong in my belief that being able to choose under which consuegla flag you sail, also means you can change your choice freely, it's still hypocritical of someone so enamored with freedom to brutally punish her underlings for exercising said freedom, and even makes grim reminders out of them.

 

Also, after looking up the definition of the word, paramilitary appears to mean something slightly different in english than i thought, and the principi clearly fit the definition. Sorry about that.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Taevyr

[Ildun]

 

 

 

No, luminous adra is just a stronger version. The adra which full of soul is corrupted adra.

Corrupted Adra is ‘blocked’ Adra which prevents a soul flowing through it. You can see this at the Poko Kahara waystation where the machinery has made an ‘off switch’ in the base of the pillar by corrupting the adra, so that the ‘soul energy’ from their sacrificial victim pods on the upper floors will become ‘trapped’ in the top of the pillar - effectively making a battery of the healthy top part of the pillar.

Eothas explains that he’s sucking souls out of the luminous adra pillars for fuel, as well as out of people he passes by. He himself is made of luminous adra, being an adra statue rammed full of souls.

If you convince Eothas to help kith after he’s done breaking the wheel, the ‘light of thousands of souls’ leaves his body. If you don’t tell him to do anything the souls stay trapped within him and the statue continues to glow.

 

Yes, because it is blocked so the soul will trap, if not the soul will flow through adra. Without manipulation, adra is just a conduit with essence, so people are not mining soul .

I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the story of the game if you haven’t realised luminous adra is luminous because it has souls in it.

 

In Poko Kahara the souls are trapped *by* the layer of corrupted adra, not *inside* the corrupted layer. They have been deliberately bottled up in the healthy top part of the pillar and prevented from making their way past the corrupted layer into the rest of the adra network and toward The Wheel.

 

Now I'm confused :D

 

Isn't that "layer" you said cover the adra and made it into a corrupted adra which trapping soul?

Btw, luminous adra is a gateway, a hub where souls gather and flow. After they flow through part of essence remain, isn't essence the one which make adra glow?

[flamesium]

 

 

I don't recall it ever mentioning the soul energy having to be spread over a larger population, where is it mentioned? I recall it being said that new souls are actually created and that there was no fear of running out soon, rather the issue was that individual souls degraded over time when inbetween bodies.

 

Unless I imagined it -which would not be unheard of btw- I believe it’s mentioned when discussing Galawain’s plan to use the Hollowborn souls to strengthen the souls of the people in the Dyrwood. If not then during discussion of the Autumn Stelgaer’s role of culling weak souls.

New souls can be created, but I believe it is by a process of ‘thinning out’ existing souls as they go through The Wheel, rather than getting something for nothing.

Well the first souls must have come from somewhere. Souls seem to regenerate as well, recovering their power without having to consume other souls so souls increasing in number via mitosis that results in two souls equally as strong as the original soul seems valid with 'twinned' souls being the result of the process not going quite right and leaving a connection between the two (otherwise most people in Eora would have to be twinned souls at the very least to account for the increase in population).

I believe souls initially formed from a ‘cloud of essence’ surrounding the planet. The super bad ending concludes with this description ‘The world ends as others have begun - a lifeless rock in a cloud of essence.’ which imo is the souls returning to their original state as Rymyrgand desires.

 

There is still loose essence in the world, which iirc is linked to how magic functions. Idk which souls we’ve seen regenerate but they could be using loose essence to do so. I still don’t believe it’s an infinite resource.

[flamesium]

Now I'm confused :D

Isn't that "layer" you said cover the adra and made it into a corrupted adra which trapping soul?

Btw, luminous adra is a gateway, a hub where souls gather and flow. After they flow through part of essence remain, isn't essence the one which make adra glow?

At Poko Kahara waystation it’s like this:

 

Luminous <sacrificial souls trapped here

Luminous Luminous <sacrificial souls trapped here

Corrupted Corrupted Corrupted <machine around pillar causing corruption, souls above can’t pass through

Luminous Luminous Luminous <souls flowing through naturally

Luminous Luminous Luminous <souls flowing through naturally

Luminous Luminous Luminous <souls flowing through naturally

 

I believe the only reason the adra around the Deadfire tends to be luminous is because of the proximity of The Wheel. Souls from around the world are flowing towards The Wheel and reach a higher concentration as they get backed up like traffic waiting their turn on The Wheel.

[mazeltov]

So, what is the consequence of Eothas act really? Was there a natural order of distribution before the Engwithans and how did it work ? Was it like the wheel and the Engwithans just build the machine on top if it in order to sustain the gods ? If so, is it irreversible?

 

When I reached the point of commiting to one of the factions, I rather asked myself which one will do the least damage if there was such a thing as a natural order before the gods inception. This is why I ruled out VTC and to an extend RDC.

 

As the events of the game unfolded I often wondered about this pre-Wheel state; about the pre-Engwithan paradigm with regard to souls. If there is a natural order independent of the Wheel that works well, it hardly matters which decision or which faction the Watcher chooses in game. Eothas only ends up hurting the gods. But if destroying the Wheel has catastrophic consequences for kith that only dedicated activity by kith can fix or mitigate, the choice of which faction to give privileged access to Ukaizo becomes much more urgent, keeping in mind that the player/Watcher has very incomplete information going into the endgame sequence.

[Ildun]

What if...primordial race was living in the Beyond? There is no cycle or death at very beginning? :D

[Sarakash]

What if...primordial race was living in the Beyond? There is no cycle or death at very beginning? :D

 

That seems unlikely, at least if we are talking about the Engwithans. Thaos told us during the final confrontation that they invented the gods to bring order to a world where a multitude of believes created war and strive, so people were actually dying. It was there solution to impose a certain order and therefore bring stability.

 

 

So, what is the consequence of Eothas act really? Was there a natural order of distribution before the Engwithans and how did it work ? Was it like the wheel and the Engwithans just build the machine on top if it in order to sustain the gods ? If so, is it irreversible?

 

When I reached the point of commiting to one of the factions, I rather asked myself which one will do the least damage if there was such a thing as a natural order before the gods inception. This is why I ruled out VTC and to an extend RDC.

 

As the events of the game unfolded I often wondered about this pre-Wheel state; about the pre-Engwithan paradigm with regard to souls. If there is a natural order independent of the Wheel that works well, it hardly matters which decision or which faction the Watcher chooses in game. Eothas only ends up hurting the gods. But if destroying the Wheel has catastrophic consequences for kith that only dedicated activity by kith can fix or mitigate, the choice of which faction to give privileged access to Ukaizo becomes much more urgent, keeping in mind that the player/Watcher has very incomplete information going into the endgame sequence.

 

 

Yes, we (as players) cannot make an informed decision, neither can the Watcher. One theory I can think of why Eothas actions might disrupt the cycle is that the creation of the wheel introduced a change to the system which cannot be undone, thus it cannot return to its original state. If the cycle allready functioned like the wheel did I d argue that the wheel had to be build on top of it. Then again, the creation of the machine had to be so invasive that the cycle became dependend on it for it´s destruction to matter on the long run.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Sarakash

[GamerSerg]

Aeldys reactivates the storm machine btw, which also maintains the storms in Rauitai.

 

We don’t really know how disasterous The Wheel being destroyed (or even destroyed *and* inaccessible for repair/research) is yet, because the game doesn’t make it clear at all what the repercussions of The Wheel being destroyed are.

 

If Eora was immediately thrown into a worldwide Hollowborn crisis (which would be known within hours, or days at most) you’d think the ending slides would mention it. If it’s not and babies are still being born with souls just fine then the whole thing seems like a fuss over nothing.

 

Another thing worth considering is that the storm machine may have been hiding some kind of backup system in Rauitai. If the Ukaizo machine was responsible for the storms even in faraway Rauitai it stands to reason they must be hiding something important.

 

Teleportation (such as it is) may not even work now without the ‘pull’ of The Wheel on the adra network.

 

My understanding is that births will continue as normal for awhile because the souls already in the beyond can still be reborn but as people die those souls will be stuck in the in-between and unable to move from there to the beyond and eventually reborn.  So the crisis is not immediate and the world at large may not notice anything for awhile (depending how many souls are in the Beyond at any one time). 

 

Many people have asked what happened to souls before the wheel was built and I think it's the same idea.  The Beyond is a giant holding area for souls that are next in line to be born and that could last years, decade, centuries, who knows?  The Engwithians eventually realized at some point they would run out and built the wheel to begin recycling souls (trapping them in the in-between and then moving them to the beyond) allowing life to continue forever while also feeding the newly created gods.

 

I see it as a metaphor for our own natural resources.   Life has existed on Earth for a very long time without running out of natural resources but we are just now at a point where we are starting to understand that natural resources will run out eventually along with issues of pollution and global warming pushing the need for people to start recycling even though it wasn't something people worried much about a 1,000 years ago.

[Casper]

i haven't chimed in on this particular thread yet... so i figure now's a good time.

my approach to deadfire thus far has been... help the various factions in equal measure. taking care to not attack the various factions directly. maintaining the status quo, and getting paychecks from just about everywhere. and managed to spoil the VTC's slave trade ambitions without impacting the vtc arc (still got a minor positive from them for that bit, btw).

 

then at the endgame saying politely ****off to the various superpowers about the archipelago, as i doubt any of those idiots could be trusted with such a prize. i mean the lot of em basically stated if we can't have our prize screw all souls everywhere. i wouldn't want any of those selfish, greedy, dangerously shortsighted bastards anywhere near there. can any of you honestly say otherwise?  

[Ildun]

i haven't chimed in on this particular thread yet... so i figure now's a good time.

my approach to deadfire thus far has been... help the various factions in equal measure. taking care to not attack the various factions directly. maintaining the status quo, and getting paychecks from just about everywhere. and managed to spoil the VTC's slave trade ambitions without impacting the vtc arc (still got a minor positive from them for that bit, btw).

 

then at the endgame saying politely ****off to the various superpowers about the archipelago, as i doubt any of those idiots could be trusted with such a prize. i mean the lot of em basically stated if we can't have our prize screw all souls everywhere. i wouldn't want any of those selfish, greedy, dangerously shortsighted bastards anywhere near there. can any of you honestly say otherwise?  

 

I also want to go alone, but seeing without any faction take control Deadfire will throw into total chaos, I have to choose lesser evil who will bring benefit to Deadfire.

[Casper]

 

i haven't chimed in on this particular thread yet... so i figure now's a good time.

my approach to deadfire thus far has been... help the various factions in equal measure. taking care to not attack the various factions directly. maintaining the status quo, and getting paychecks from just about everywhere. and managed to spoil the VTC's slave trade ambitions without impacting the vtc arc (still got a minor positive from them for that bit, btw).

 

then at the endgame saying politely ****off to the various superpowers about the archipelago, as i doubt any of those idiots could be trusted with such a prize. i mean the lot of em basically stated if we can't have our prize screw all souls everywhere. i wouldn't want any of those selfish, greedy, dangerously shortsighted bastards anywhere near there. can any of you honestly say otherwise?  

 

I also want to go alone, but seeing without any faction take control Deadfire will throw into total chaos, I have to choose lesser evil who will bring benefit to Deadfire.

 

in this situation who's to say chaos wouldn't be the lesser evil? and besides, from the ending slides being somewhat mercenary looks like a whole lot of fun in that particular post game world. hel, think i'd like one of the deadfire expansions to do just that, and let us play around in the aftermath we created. 

[Karkarov]

then at the endgame saying politely ****off to the various superpowers about the archipelago, as i doubt any of those idiots could be trusted with such a prize. i mean the lot of em basically stated if we can't have our prize screw all souls everywhere. i wouldn't want any of those selfish, greedy, dangerously shortsighted bastards anywhere near there. can any of you honestly say otherwise?  

Uh this isn't totally true.  Like I mentioned before, as hilarious as it is, crazy murdering pirate Aeldys makes it clear she does not actually want to rule the Deadfire and doesn't care about the politics or factions of the region.  She just wants to live free, and if you side with her even talks about how they will try to find a way to stop Eothas.

 

Which is the whole point of the thread.  From a morality perspective the least likely candidate is the strongest morally at the critical moment.  Though there is a lot to be said for the F it, I am going alone mentality too.

[Tarlonniel]

For me, the problem isn't so much that the various factions are doing (IMHO) horrible things. It's when they ask the Watcher to do some horrible thing for them that I dig in my heels. My characters don't go around imposing their personal moral code on others (unless the opportunity arises via persuasion check), but they're also not going to violate that moral code. For anyone. And where most factions step over that line is in their final quest.

[Aramintai]

For me, the problem isn't so much that the various factions are doing (IMHO) horrible things. It's when they ask the Watcher to do some horrible thing for them that I dig in my heels. My characters don't go around imposing their personal moral code on others (unless the opportunity arises via persuasion check), but they're also not going to violate that moral code. For anyone. And where most factions step over that line is in their final quest.

Well, there is a way to avoid most of the horrible endgame shenanigans with VTC (maybe Huana too), at least.

When RDC asks you to kill the Huana queen you can decline and they all turn hostile because you now know too much. That gives the Watcher a license to kill the lot of them for self-defense.

With RDC out of the picture you don't have to blow up the powder house and skip straight to battle at Ukaizo. Whomever appears there to attack you depends on who has the second most rep with you, it seems. But in any case, it's unavoidable self-defense again.

[Tarlonniel]

Yup, that's the strategy I've ended up using in my games. I'm not sure if Obsidian intended that as a work-around, but it's handy.

 

Oddly enough, the only faction leader who doesn't ask my Watchers to do something which I consider flat-out wrong is Furrante. Well, he wants you to deal with slavers, but even if you dismantle their operation (which I always do) he continues working with you. Still not giving him Ukaizo, though.

[Aramintai]

Yup, that's the strategy I've ended up using in my games. I'm not sure if Obsidian intended that as a work-around, but it's handy.

 

Oddly enough, the only faction leader who doesn't ask my Watchers to do something which I consider flat-out wrong is Furrante. Well, he wants you to deal with slavers, but even if you dismantle their operation (which I always do) he continues working with you. Still not giving him Ukaizo, though.

Btw, it's interesting how people say VTC is pro-slavery, but actually it was just Castol's idea to work with Furrante, cuz he was looking for quick money to fund his research projects. During his trial he can even get banished for that, because officially VTC is against it. It's a good idea to kill the slavers and Furrante beforehand if you want to keep him in his position.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Aramintai

[Wormerine]

Curious thread. Surprised by how much different opinions regarding factions can be found here.

 

I find it difficult to imagine allying myself with RDC, unless I create character specifically for that purpose (rauatai background, unquestioning soldier). They seem to be straight up evil, preferring violence and military control as a means of keeping populace under control. I can’t imagine them bringing anything positive to Deadfire and I didn’t see them do any good throughout the game.

 

Huana - not a fan of them either. Not much against their motivation but competence. They get a lot of goodwill due to being native to Deadfire, but they don’t seem to know how to handle tradition and progress. It is impossible for them to continue living as they did before, yet they resist adapting. The result is a culture favouring few based on birth and hurting many. Not unique to this faction, but I feel that Huana cast system has a potential to be even more disasterous than let’s say Valian’s greed. The only benefit of them ruling is their protectiveness over adra and Ukaizo, however, with Eothas actions, it seems like a potential global suicide. However, if I were to side with them, screwing over both exploitative companies does bring some satisfaction.

 

Principi - I considered them. They seem like the “I don’t care” option. All for themselves, without any greater plans and just screwing everyone else in the process. Once again, it doesn’t seem like the safest choice due to Eothas actions, but as discussed before it is removed far enough from politics, to not ask you do anything too immoral - though I doubt Principi itself brings anything good to the world.

 

Valians - as much as I dislike corporations personally, I found it completely agreeable for my PC to ally with them. Profit is desirable, supporting animancy has been my no. 1 priority, especially with the destruction of the wheel. Blowing up powder reserve kills people, but it’s RDC we are talking about - group of brainwashed soldiers who murder and invade without questioning. Stopping their invasion of Deadfire seems like a good thing to do. I was much less happy about having to face Queen and Prince when taking over Ukaizo.

While Valians did their share of shady things, I found Director Castols intentions to be well directed. I wanted him to work without having to resort to shady practices.

[bugarup]

I'd say the only faction with a high ground here are the Huana for the simple reason -- they live in Deadfire archipelago and they did not invite greedy fascists, greedy corporations and greedy marauders into their home. And justifying invaders with "Well their caste system sucks!" ... I don't know. Yeah, it sure sucks, but it does not make occupation justified. My ideal outcome would be with Huana as the dominant power, but a little more, well, cosmopolitan. All the other factions have presence, presence generates influence and maybe after a year or two  Roparu look around, think "Seriously, why are we allowing those useless aristocrats disrespect us when we feed them?", learn the art of Molotov c0cktail making and voila! -- authentic social revolution, honest and genuine and not caused by meddlesome, assassination-happy arseholes.

 

If Huana is my lesser evil, then the greater of lesser evils would be Vailian Republic. They're kind of like Electronic Arts of Eora -- everyone at the top is a horrible untalented profiteer only concerned with the bottom line, but they have genuinely talented, inspired people working for them who want to create and innovate. Education, universities, everything "For science!" -- yeah, even if the majority of profits lines pockets of a few selected disgusting, atrocious, stinking, loathsome capitalista swines (I hate corporations, if you couldn't tell), there still is some good in it.

 

I probably would not side with RDC fascists even on my evil arsehole run, and the pirates with their "LOL hurr durr random murdurrr" 'tude ain't much better.

Edited May 26, 2018 by bugarup

[Casper]

I'd say the only faction with a high ground here are the Huana for the simple reason -- they live in Deadfire archipelago and they did not invite greedy fascists, greedy corporations and greedy marauders into their home. And justifying invaders with "Well their caste system sucks!" ... I don't know. Yeah, it sure sucks, but it does not make occupation justified. My ideal outcome would be with Huana as the dominant power, but a little more, well, cosmopolitan. All the other factions have presence, presence generates influence and maybe after a year or two  Roparu look around, think "Seriously, why are we allowing those useless aristocrats disrespect us when we feed them?", learn the art of Molotov c0cktail making and voila! -- authentic social revolution, honest and genuine and not caused by meddlesome, assassination-happy arseholes.

 

If Huana is my lesser evil, then the greater of lesser evils would be Vailian Republic. They're kind of like Electronic Arts of Eora -- everyone at the top is a horrible untalented profiteer only concerned with the bottom line, but they have genuinely talented, inspired people working for them who want to create and innovate. Education, universities, everything "For science!" -- yeah, even if the majority of profits lines pockets of a few selected disgusting, atrocious, stinking, loathsome capitalista swines (I hate corporations, if you couldn't tell), there still is some good in it.

 

I probably would not side with RDC fascists even on my evil arsehole run, and the pirates with their "LOL hurr durr random murdurrr" 'tude ain't much better.

from my perspective i see the mataru as corrupt, greedy, oppressive fascists. or are you forgetting the guards crushing the roparu under their boots in neketaka, while starving them to death at the same time? 

[bugarup]

from my perspective i see the mataru as corrupt, greedy, oppressive fascists. or are you forgetting the guards crushing the roparu under their boots in neketaka, while starving them to death at the same time? 

 

 

And the only correct solution of this problem can and must come from inside of the Huana nation itself, regardless of how long it takes.  Nobody can -- and should -- "fix" it for them, because it would only make things worse. RDC's, Vailia's, Principi's hearts do not bleed for the Roparu -- the Roparu is just an excuse for imperialistic greed; the three powers do not give a sh†t about them, as they're not there to fix the social injustice; they're just here for that sweet, sweet Adra/ land/ looting and pillaging.

Edited May 26, 2018 by bugarup

[Casper]

 

from my perspective i see the mataru as corrupt, greedy, oppressive fascists. or are you forgetting the guards crushing the roparu under their boots in neketaka, while starving them to death at the same time? 

 

 

And the only correct solution of this problem can and must come from inside of the Huana nation itself, regardless of how long it takes.  Nobody can -- and should -- "fix" it for them, because it would only make things worse. RDC's, Vailia's, Principi's hearts do not bleed for the Roparu -- the Roparu is just an excuse for imperialistic greed; the three powers do not give a sh†t about them, as they're not there to fix the social injustice; they're just here for that sweet, sweet Adra/ land/ looting and pillaging.

 

while that is true, i don't think they have the morale high ground here. just because they happen to live there doesn't mean they're in the right. fascists living in their own territory doesn't negate the fact they are still fascists.

[Aramintai]

Well, I roleplay around Huana's "sad puppy eyes" stance - my protag favors Galawain/Magran/Abydon's ideals, so them Huana always whining how they were so cool before they lost Ukaizo just sounds as being weak and seeking excuses for their backward way of life. In all these ages they couldn't even find its location, let alone reclaim some semblance of their former glory through other means. So my protag thinks they don't deserve Ukaizo anymore, let somebody more strong take it. And besides, they wish but Ukaizo doesn't belong to them alone, it belongs to all of Eora, just as the gods and the Wheel belong to all of Eora - Huana may have lived there, but it was the Engwithans who brought them the knowledge that allowed for the construction of animancy machinery.

[Kesslik]

My current game I'm killing off every ship that's not straight out a deadfire merchant. And then by the end I'll end up killing off every single faction. Not because I want to, but because the game wants my Watcher to get behind at least 1 evil faction and I'm not gonna do it. There won't be enough pirates left to form a group, especially seeing as I've killed off all their boats. The Queen will attack me for some foolish reason, thinking beyond all logic she and he brother can kill off a group that regularly talk to gods, and end up splattered all over the place. The VTC and DTC, same fate. In the end, the people of Deadfire will get to decide what they want. Not a faction, and not me.

[Yonjuro]

 

from my perspective i see the mataru as corrupt, greedy, oppressive fascists. or are you forgetting the guards crushing the roparu under their boots in neketaka, while starving them to death at the same time? 

 

 

And the only correct solution of this problem can and must come from inside of the Huana nation itself, regardless of how long it takes.  Nobody can -- and should -- "fix" it for them, because it would only make things worse. RDC's, Vailia's, Principi's hearts do not bleed for the Roparu -- the Roparu is just an excuse for imperialistic greed; the three powers do not give a sh†t about them, as they're not there to fix the social injustice; they're just here for that sweet, sweet Adra/ land/ looting and pillaging.

 

 

 Why do you think outside influence will necessarily make things worse? In the real world, modern economies, scientific rationalism, rule of law and free(-ish) trade have had a net positive effect on poverty, disease, human rights and life in general even when they have been motivated by less than altruistic reasons. Why would the Deadfire be different?

 

 What would prompt the Huana fix their toxic culture unless they saw another culture working better (ie outside influence)?