Extensive first thoughts after finishing Deadfire's first playthrough

[Multihog]

I didn't mean to knock PoE2's music with that post. It was a sort-of reply to Aotrs Commander.

 

Yeah, I noticed there's one track with percussion only and another one that's ALMOST percussion only but has some strings. I think the percussion track is actually one of the stronger combat tracks in the game. Again, I thought it was sampled, haha. No wonder it sounded so realistic and dynamic. 

 

Btw, that's got to suck; when PoE1 came out, people were complaining the music was too distracting. Now people are complaining it's not distracting enough. LOL. Anyway, you deserve all the best, being such a good sport about all of this and being able to receive constructive criticism. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Multihog

[Aotrs Commander]

Btw, that's got to suck; when PoE1 came out, people were complaining the music was too distracting. Now people are complaining it's not distracting enough. LOL. Anyway, you deserve all the best, being such a good sport about all of this and being able to receive constructive criticism.

 

Well, most of the time, you literally cannot win whatever you do, since you can garentee you will find people who want the diametrically opposite things.

 

Or worse, the people who want you to make [the thing] magically better ("make it 20% cooler!") without being able to quantify in what manner...!

Edited May 18, 2018 by Aotrs Commander

[Justin Bell]

I didn't mean to knock PoE2's music with that post. It was a sort-of reply to Aotrs Commander.

 

Yeah, I noticed there's one track with percussion only and another one that's ALMOST percussion only but has some strings. I think the percussion track is actually one of the stronger combat tracks in the game. Again, I thought it was sampled, haha. No wonder it sounded so realistic and dynamic. 

 

Btw, that's got to suck; when PoE1 came out, people were complaining the music was too distracting. Now people are complaining it's not distracting enough. LOL. Anyway, you deserve all the best, being such a good sport about all of this and being able to receive constructive criticism. 

 

Oh I didn't take it as a knock at all   Honestly I want to deliver something folks will enjoy.  There's a learning curve there for sure, but I'll get there.

 

 

Btw, that's got to suck; when PoE1 came out, people were complaining the music was too distracting. Now people are complaining it's not distracting enough. LOL. Anyway, you deserve all the best, being such a good sport about all of this and being able to receive constructive criticism.

 

Well, most of the time, you literally cannot win whatever you do, since you can garentee you will find people who want the diametrically opposite things.

 

Or worse, the people who want you to make [the thing] magically better ("make it 20% cooler!") without being able to quantify in what manner...!

 

 

It's a balancing act for sure!  Hans Zimmer said once that "music is indefensible" , and I completely agree.  I think he was talking about it in the context of the collaborative process, but he probably also means it in terms of people liking the music or not.   Keeps things interesting!  

 

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread, I just noticed the music discussion and wanted to chime in! 

[algroth]

Responding to music parts of the thread... Thanks for all the music feedback folks. Something we haven't really talked about is that the music is reactive in PoE2! It changes depending on whether or not you're sneaking, walking around, or are in a conversation/scripted interaction (the choose your own adventure parts). The idea was to keep it from sounding too static over time.

 

The music is constructed of 3 layers and is additive. Sneaking is just one layer, typically basses, harp, and some accompaniment, and you'll always hear that. Exploration is sneaking + a second layer that includes more accompaniment, countermelodies, and some melodic content. Conversations have all previous layers + another one that is primarily melodic. Transitions between layers aren't instantaneous, and generally only happen at the beginning of new musical phrases. I find it interesting to be able to focus on the different components of a given piece of music.

 

Sneak + explore + conversation is what you hear in the soundtrack, and can be considered the full piece of music. We recorded each section of the orchestra separately to allow for this. Not every track is reactive - combat music isn't - but many are. Even Twin Elms redux is reactive; we re-recorded it just so we can make it reactive!

 

You know, I *did* notice some cues seemingly responding to dialogue initiations and the likes, I thought it was a neat coincidence but I see that it's no coincidence at all now! That's some great stuff. I'll make sure to keep closer ear on these changes as I carry on playing. All in all, fantastic work, Justin!

[Multihog]

It's all good. Music of the game was a central topic in the thread all along, and it was very interesting to hear from the composer himself!

[Justin Bell]

 

Responding to music parts of the thread... Thanks for all the music feedback folks. Something we haven't really talked about is that the music is reactive in PoE2! It changes depending on whether or not you're sneaking, walking around, or are in a conversation/scripted interaction (the choose your own adventure parts). The idea was to keep it from sounding too static over time.

 

The music is constructed of 3 layers and is additive. Sneaking is just one layer, typically basses, harp, and some accompaniment, and you'll always hear that. Exploration is sneaking + a second layer that includes more accompaniment, countermelodies, and some melodic content. Conversations have all previous layers + another one that is primarily melodic. Transitions between layers aren't instantaneous, and generally only happen at the beginning of new musical phrases. I find it interesting to be able to focus on the different components of a given piece of music.

 

Sneak + explore + conversation is what you hear in the soundtrack, and can be considered the full piece of music. We recorded each section of the orchestra separately to allow for this. Not every track is reactive - combat music isn't - but many are. Even Twin Elms redux is reactive; we re-recorded it just so we can make it reactive!

 

You know, I *did* notice some cues seemingly responding to dialogue initiations and the likes, I thought it was a neat coincidence but I see that it's no coincidence at all now! That's some great stuff. I'll make sure to keep closer ear on these changes as I carry on playing. All in all, fantastic work, Justin!

 

 

Nice!  That was the intent!  I almost didn't want to tell folks about it initially because if they knew it might be more obvious, but hey the cats out of the bag and I'm glad you enjoyed it :D

[algroth]

By the way, I will say that I absolutely loved the approach to combat music this time around, myself. I find that the subdued and heavily rhythmic approach worked really well in making many of the encounters more evocative relative to the first game. Tyranny likely remains my favorite in this regard but between these last two I do feel you guys have really found the sweet spot. For me, anyhow.

[Justin Bell]

It's all good. Music of the game was a central topic in the thread all along, and it was very interesting to hear from the composer himself!

 Right on   BTW I love Dark Souls.  It's my favorite game of all time, and I adore it's use of music in that you almost never hear it unless it's a boss, shrine, or cutscene (which there are very few of).  It was very courageous of From Software to make that creative choice, I can almost guarantee there were people on the development and publishing side asking why there wasn't more music.  Expertly crafted sonic experiences even though they are so simple. 

[Multihog]

 

It's all good. Music of the game was a central topic in the thread all along, and it was very interesting to hear from the composer himself!

 Right on   BTW I love Dark Souls.  It's my favorite game of all time, and I adore it's use of music in that you almost never hear it unless it's a boss, shrine, or cutscene (which there are very few of).  It was very courageous of From Software to make that creative choice, I can almost guarantee there were people on the development and publishing side asking why there wasn't more music.  Expertly crafted sonic experiences even though they are so simple. 

 

Agreed. I never even actually gave that much thought, but you're absolutely right. The absence of music in most parts definitely made it more impactful when it did play. That sad strings piece is a big part of Firelink Shrine for me. 

 

Speaking of courageous design choices, Dark Souls certainly is full of those, and that's what made it stand out. None of it feels forced either. Everything just works.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Multihog

[Justin Bell]

By the way, I will say that I absolutely loved the approach to combat music this time around, myself. I find that the subdued and heavily rhythmic approach worked really well in making many of the encounters more evocative relative to the first game. Tyranny likely remains my favorite in this regard but between these last two I do feel you guys have really found the sweet spot. For me, anyhow.

Nice! Great to hear that! I tried to move in the current direction a bit more with Tyranny, but the tech we had was still relatively basic compared to Pillars 2. Pillars 2, as you correctly stated, definitely pushes into that direction further.

[Excerpt]

Can I just say that the best music in the POE2 is hands down the ship singing tracks. I wasn't even expecting them to occur the first time which made it all the more thrilling and atmospheric. It actually made me want to stay on the ship longer lol.

[Koth]

+1 to the list of peeps that love deadfire music. Love it, love it, love it. Well done Obs.

[Justin Bell]

Can I just say that the best music in the POE2 is hands down the ship singing tracks. I wasn't even expecting them to occur the first time which made it all the more thrilling and atmospheric. It actually made me want to stay on the ship longer lol.

Nice! Glad you like it Truth be told I was skeptical that people would like it, but I'm glad I was wrong.

[Justin Bell]

+1 to the list of peeps that love deadfire music. Love it, love it, love it. Well done Obs.

Thank you!!

[freche]

Just finished the game. Almost a 100% playthrough, got locked out of some quests due to choices made during other quests.

And I want to thank Obsidian for this game. I truly enjoyed playing and experiencing the story.

 

The writing I liked and was overall good.

Personally, I prefer stories that are built more around my character. In PoE it was about my awakening and my personal dealings with this, preventing me from going mad. Solving the greater crisis became a mission on the way for my personal quest, so where many of the side quests where I came across them because I had a reason to be where I was.

 

In Deadfire the story starts a bit the same since Eothas steals part of my soul and that forces me to pursue him. I have a personal reason to do this. But shortly after Port Maje I kind of lost this feeling, the personal quest wasn’t there. Sure, my character was involved in shaping the Deadfire and its factions. But most of them where done because I went out of my way to seek out quests to do and not things I happened to come across while on my own journey.

 

This feeling I think comes from a combination that it’s exploration is very open and that there is no urgency in the main story and the fact that it’s extremely short. I honestly expected much more from the main story when it comes to length, the story with the gods and how the lore about the world is delivered and explained is however superb.

 

The gameplay was a good improvement over the first one.

The combat was more active, there where more things to do. However as stated countless times the game balance is a bit off and it’s currently too easy. I liked the fact that I could use my abilities more freely then I could in PoE.

 

But someone else mentioned in another thread that you never get the questioning feeling if you would be able to make it through this dungeon, and that got me thinking that there is some truth in that, I kind of missed that part. Can my party actually do another encounter, or do I have to rest? Not that it should happen all the time and everywhere but would have been nice if one could get that questioning thought now and then.

 

Also all areas where very short, probably because the world was larger and more spread out. But it would have been nice to have some areas that where a bit longer, like the Old City or even longer then that.

 

Companions where about right, I liked their writing and I didn’t end up with the party I was expecting to use.

They all had their personalities, but it felt like they could have expressed their personalities more. There was one part where I destroyed a red orb and Tekehu commented in just normal party banter something like “Do you have to destroy everything in your path” which made me think about what I did, reload and not destroy it. More of that questioning my actions and not just blindly follow me because I happened to be the protagonist.

 

Their personal quests however, I don't know. They fell kind of flat, short and not a lot of substance.

 

The voice acting, I really liked, and I'm one of those that liked the narrator too.

First I was a bit sad that she only narrated the story, but once I got to play I understand that choice, because there is so much narrated text and it is faster to read then listen. But I want to thank you so much that all dialog was voiced, did wonders for the game. And most of the acting was good enough. Although some work could have been done on some of the voices. The Rathuns, the flame giants come especially to mind. To me they don’t sound like giants at all, it even mentions in the dialog that one of them speaks with a booming voice, but there was nothing booming behind that voice at all.

 

Itemization, I don’t know how I feel about it.

I very much liked the fact that unique items really where unique with all their bonuses. But I felt there was no item progression at all in this game, 10 hours into the game and I stopped even looking at new items. I think it was way too easy to upgrade items. Another factor was probably that the lack of difficulty made it so I didn’t have to care what items I used, I had my two legendary swords and didn't need much more.

 

Another thing, did I miss almost all helmets or is there a serious lack of enchanted headwear? If it’s because godlikes can’t use helms, tough luck for them I’d say, or maybe let them use a cape and a necklace to compensate.

 

Ship combat was about rightly done and I think a right amount of encounters, more and it would have become annoying and tedious. I was missing the choice to man my other ships and send them out to do their own thing, either as pirates who come back with plunder or as transport/guard ships for merchants, hanua, valians or the rautai.

 

Exploration, I really liked the freedom to go where I want and to explore the world as I wanted.

But at the same time, it took something from the personal journey that I talked about before. I’m not saying that free exploration is the reason for this. But if we look at games like Baldur’s Gate and Pillars of Eternity we get forced to go through different areas to reach our destination and these areas become part of the journey in a different way. With free exploration they become more of a detour then on the way. If free exploration is used I think the main path needs to be more planned out to make it a journey, and not just a few locations you travel to and then you are done.

 

Overall
A very good game that I’m sure will only become even better with some patches and the additional content that will come. It improved upon PoE, it didn’t try to just be more of the same it added some new things with mixed results. A game that I will play again and will recommend for those interested in rpgs.

 

Thanks again for the entertainment you have given me, and I look forward to future content and hopefully more games in Eora.

 

[Excerpt]

 

Can I just say that the best music in the POE2 is hands down the ship singing tracks. I wasn't even expecting them to occur the first time which made it all the more thrilling and atmospheric. It actually made me want to stay on the ship longer lol.

Nice! Glad you like it Truth be told I was skeptical that people would like it, but I'm glad I was wrong.

 

 

It felt almost like an intermittent song from a pirate movie. One you might hear between scenes in a film with lots of ale clinking and swinging from ropes. I would love to have some additional similar tracks for one of the future DLCs. In particular, I thought a good place to have some kind of shipboard atmospheric track or sound effects would be during the storm events on the overworld map.

 

All around very good job with the music this go around, it is a massive improvement over the first's soundtrack (which was very repetitive in it's scope sad to say). I would like to echo the sentiments from another user about there needing to be a few areas that should have had unique soundtracks (such as the bathhouse). It might seem like a waste from a development point of view, but one thing that has always stood out to me in games that have become all time favorites is those areas where you get exclusive chills from epic music you've not heard anywhere else in the game. Some very good examples of this type can be found on late SNES early N64 video games. One of my all-time favorite games is Mario RPG (it is the first RPG I ever played to fruition back when I was 10). One of the things that still sticks with me about that game is some of the unique soundtracks for certain areas, from those with a sense of urgency to whimsy. While most areas still use the main soundtrack/themes.

 

Some other good examples of this can be found in Ocarina of Time, though not exactly an rpg they did well with the idea of "unique" tracks to select areas which make them stand out and help one reimagine those places decades later.

 

Just something for your consideration.

[eschu101]

I really love most of the music in deadfire, the melancholy in it is so beautiful. The combat music not so much, but overral its really great. 

[eschu101]

Btw, i'm currently at Dunnage. Can anyone help me find the that plays in Tempest's turn? It is SO GOOD that hurts.

[daven]

I really love most of the music in deadfire, the melancholy in it is so beautiful. The combat music not so much, but overral its really great. 

At first I couldn't understand the choice of combat music, but i kind of like how understated it is.

 

Most of the music is really appealing, the only part that really bothers me is the level up music. It just seems to drone on when you're levelling up 5 party members in a row, since it stops and starts again.

 

Edit: And also like others say the sound design in general is a massive step up since the first game. I love the Queen's Berth track like other's have said and the sea shanties.

Edited May 18, 2018 by daven

[Tanjaxxx]

I really love most of the music in deadfire, the melancholy in it is so beautiful. The combat music not so much, but overral its really great. 

 

I can agree with this. Combat music was not my favourite, but the rest was fantastic non the less. 

[eschu101]

I've just noticed that justin bell himself is replying here. Cant miss the opportunity to say how much i love tyranny's soundtrack, one of most memorable i've ever listened. Its been more than a year that i finished the game and i still listen it at least once or twice per week. Really hope for a sequel.

[Ninjamestari]

You guys really are a bunch of circle jerkers, aren't you.

[Justin Bell]

 

 

Can I just say that the best music in the POE2 is hands down the ship singing tracks. I wasn't even expecting them to occur the first time which made it all the more thrilling and atmospheric. It actually made me want to stay on the ship longer lol.

Nice! Glad you like it Truth be told I was skeptical that people would like it, but I'm glad I was wrong.

 

 

It felt almost like an intermittent song from a pirate movie. One you might hear between scenes in a film with lots of ale clinking and swinging from ropes. I would love to have some additional similar tracks for one of the future DLCs. In particular, I thought a good place to have some kind of shipboard atmospheric track or sound effects would be during the storm events on the overworld map.

 

All around very good job with the music this go around, it is a massive improvement over the first's soundtrack (which was very repetitive in it's scope sad to say). I would like to echo the sentiments from another user about there needing to be a few areas that should have had unique soundtracks (such as the bathhouse). It might seem like a waste from a development point of view, but one thing that has always stood out to me in games that have become all time favorites is those areas where you get exclusive chills from epic music you've not heard anywhere else in the game. Some very good examples of this type can be found on late SNES early N64 video games. One of my all-time favorite games is Mario RPG (it is the first RPG I ever played to fruition back when I was 10). One of the things that still sticks with me about that game is some of the unique soundtracks for certain areas, from those with a sense of urgency to whimsy. While most areas still use the main soundtrack/themes.

 

Some other good examples of this can be found in Ocarina of Time, though not exactly an rpg they did well with the idea of "unique" tracks to select areas which make them stand out and help one reimagine those places decades later.

 

Just something for your consideration.

 

 

Thank you for that @Excerpt.  Glad you liked it.  The scope of the game and the amount of work required meant we had to de-prioritize certain plans, and the bathhouse was one of them unfortunately.  I agree with you though and I also would have liked to do something unique for this area.

 

As an alternative, what if I just persist the music from the exterior into the interior?  It might be more tonally fitting than the inn music.  

 

I really love most of the music in deadfire, the melancholy in it is so beautiful. The combat music not so much, but overral its really great. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

I really love most of the music in deadfire, the melancholy in it is so beautiful. The combat music not so much, but overral its really great. 

At first I couldn't understand the choice of combat music, but i kind of like how understated it is.

 

Most of the music is really appealing, the only part that really bothers me is the level up music. It just seems to drone on when you're levelling up 5 party members in a row, since it stops and starts again.

 

Edit: And also like others say the sound design in general is a massive step up since the first game. I love the Queen's Berth track like other's have said and the sea shanties.

 

 

Understood about the Character Creation.  I think I can probably have the music start at a different point each time you enter character creation, but unfortunately I think the music repetition is just the canary in the coal mine here. The real issue is that you have to actually leave and re-enter character creation for each character you want to level up, forcing you to hear the beginning of the music over and over, and in a way that puts a microscope on a very small section of a larger piece of music.  I think the issue would be less obvious if you could simply stay in the character creation screen until you're done leveling up your party.  I don't know if we'll ever add that feature though.

 

 

I really love most of the music in deadfire, the melancholy in it is so beautiful. The combat music not so much, but overral its really great. 

 

I can agree with this. Combat music was not my favourite, but the rest was fantastic non the less. 

 

 

Thank you!

 

I've just noticed that justin bell himself is replying here. Cant miss the opportunity to say how much i love tyranny's soundtrack, one of most memorable i've ever listened. Its been more than a year that i finished the game and i still listen it at least once or twice per week. Really hope for a sequel.

 

I'm just a regular human like you! Thank you for your very kind words about Tyranny!  It was a labor of love for many of us.

[Skazz]

You guys really are a bunch of circle jerkers, aren't you.

 

What's the right answer to that?

[Gorgon]

You guys really are a bunch of circle jerkers, aren't you.

Settle down doctor sarcastic. They worked hard on this. A few accolades from the fans are appreciated and deserved.