Gromnir

"I'm in for a world of hurt? Not really, because I don't care much about reviews." not see how that observation helps your argument none. " Just pointing out that uncategorized comparisons are fairly meaningless. Most every game shares some convention with a genre. FPS, RPG, RTS, MMO can still be characterized by substantial differences and shared conventions." again, your observation does the opposite of what you wish. games is increasingly becoming cross-genre titles, and attempts to divide according to genre gives us a standard that becomes proportionally meaningless. is dungeon siege more adventure or role-play? is there some formula based on % of adventure to rp that we can use to come up with an appropriate value for graphics? for each game we would have to come up with a different formula. avoid this kinda calculus not help us neither. after all, does it make sense that a simple re-categorization would result in a game getting two completely different scores? "Of course not. But certainly you realize it takes money to hire people to write that dialogue. You have a finite amount of resources to complete a project. A decision must be made to cut certain things, such as r&d in a graphics engine." this is true in any game. genre not change this. is always up to a developer to spend more resources on programming as posed to other aspects. "Again, I don' care." we noticed, and is hardly moved by the recognition o' your apathy. is also maybe why your arguments make less and less sense as we go along. HA! Good Fun!

p.s. some of you might have a leg to stand on if the numeric categories that gamespot and ign uses necessarily were weighted equally to get a final score... but they ain't. HA! Good Fun!

where did we say tob? ascension added some dialogue to BG2 as well as to tob.... and lord only knows what creating your own characters has to do with your diminished opinion of plot in iwd. the fact that you have non-specific and non-important characters actually helps keep plot more cohesive as you not have to deal with the problem of Player A and Player B wanting their characters to be vastly different entities. take focus off the so-called protagonist improves chances for a good plot. again, we is talking

I don't think a comparison to different genres is very comparable. Fair? Who knows? Helpful? Not really. I would imagine the coding is vastly different for a shooter than an rpg. Also, writing thousands of pages of dialogue allocates resources toward that end instead of graphics. Not much dialogue in Halo. So should they be penalized because the nature of the game is different? A straight comparison is not helpful, the nature of shooters will always place their graphics quality above an rpg. A genre comparison seems more realistic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the whole notion of numeric reviews with limited categories is bunk, but to try and split up each category even further and to compare w/i a genre, especially in this day and age, would make such reviews relatively meaningless. when dungeon siege came out, many people were impressed with its graphics. game scored very well in graphics. not much dialogue in that game. as noted above, the notion of there being clear-cut genres is an increasingly specious one. if you wanna hang your argument on a genre by genre breakdown, then you is in for a world of hurt. also of note is that nobody suggests that the music or sound in a crpg should be weaker simply 'cause of all the dialogue that had to be written. heck, is not like the people who is doing the dialogue is also doing sound and programming too. if graphics is a secondary concern for folks, then why does they care if it not score as well as halo2? HA! Good Fun!

I played FO, and all those other games. I would rate PS: T's plot up there with most CRPG's. I can't think of any game's storyline that was vastly superior to PS:T, well maybe except XG. I've never really played any game that can stand up to literature. Maybe I missed some. Any recommendations? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> fo is as good in terms o' plot, and bg2 (especially once the ascension mod added some missing dialogue,) clearly is on par if not better as far as basic plot goes. heck, truth be told, iwd stands up to ps:t quite ably as far as plot goes. 'course, Gromnir has noted here and elsewhere that plot in fantasy/sci-fi is often weak... and in games this generality becomes even more true. to expect much from the plot of a crpg is questionable. to be worried that a game

also, keep in mind that the division between genres is often suspect. how many games has you seen marketed as multi-genre? more each day? we gotta come up with a new measure for each cross-genre category? what if a game is MORE a crpg than an adventure or fps? what if the reverse is true? bah! HA! Good Fun!

whatever works for you. chris wanted to get short little bits o' philosophy 101 into ps:t, but he did so with those big and fat crayola crayons. example: robert howard did a pretty good job of working existentialism and nihilism into his conan stories, but at no point did he ever waste space on conan explaining his personal philosophy or world view... summarized all into a trite little 10 line monologue. thank goodness. also, tno's story were kinda lame for us.... and maybe it had to be as it were kept general 'nuff so that people playing different types o' protagonists could all enjoy equally. redemption is a common 'nuff theme in heroic lit, but we were not really impressed with how chris handled... particularly after the first meeting with ravel. (though we does note that we think chris a handled redemption better than did bio with revan or bastilla and others.) in terms of basic plot, after you left sigil ps:t took a down turn... and even previous to that we felt like rolling our eyes more than once. is the characters that made ps:t great for us. ravel were the bestest npc we had ever seen in any crpg previous or since, and some of the joinable npcs were good too.... but tno... only so-so. HA! Good Fun!

the fact that crpg graphics is secondary (at least to hades,) does not improve the graphics in a crpg, does they? just 'cause you is a crpg fan not mean that you gotta suffer from this ridiculous case o' pen1s envy for fps graphics. halo2 does have better graphics than kotor2. to give same score to both games

again, we wouldn't be surprised that many folks prefer old coke... and strength of chis stories in past has rarely been core plot. ps:t, for example, really didn't shine when you look at chris' philosophy for dummies stuff... but the individual characters was often the best we ever seen in crpgs. HA! Good Fun!

sure, that makes sense. HA! Good Fun!

"i guess IGN is now comparing everyone's graphics to HALO 2's" which is precisely what they should do. ign finds an industry standard and then measures all other games 'gainst that standard. makes sense to us. the fact that kotor2 graphics is an improvement over kotor graphics does not change fact that it is clearly lagging behind the industry standard. we not got any problem with ign measuring kotor 'gainst halo2. however, for anybody at this point to be shocked that kotor2's graphics is not up to halo2's graphics is foolishness in the extreme. we has all seen screenshots of kotor2 and we has even probably seen some in-game footage. we all knew that kotor2 were gonna look largely the same as kotor. sure, we got robes and snow and a handful o' other things, but if anybody is shocked or surprised that kotor2, (which uses same engine as kotor, and were developed by a small group of people in a short period of time,) is not a vast improvement over kotor in terms o graphics, then we thinks they is nuts. HA! Good Fun!

2 fears: 1) buggy if this title is really more buggy than the previous one, then we will simply have to wait til february to purchase the pc version... a version which no doubt will be bugged too... but one that can be patched. so, looks like Gromnir won't be playing this game til march... 'cause Gromnir no longer buys pc games until after first patch is released. isn't jade empires slated for a march release? is possible that it may be a goodly time before Gromnir gets to actually play kotor2. 2) more of the same we liked kotor, but kotor had some big problems for us. balance were screwy. some attributes and skills and feats was being next to worthless. the sentinel class were laughable. ranged combat were nowhere near as effective as melee. jedi npcs were so clearly superior to non jedi (save in some very limited number of situations,) that you felt like you was gimping party if you wanted to take a non-jedi along. the end boss could be a wimp or unbeatable depending on your character build... and those were just some of the balance concerns we had. add in fact that we thought that combat were less than challenging and a half dozen other issues and one wonders how on earth Gromnir coulda' liked the game... but we did. regardless, we is hardly looking forward to seeing some of the same broken mechanics all over again. is many aspects of kotor that were fun, but story is where it excelled... but if it weren't for the nostalgia factor, the core story from kotor woulda' been kinda uninspired. bioware managed to walk a Very thin line with kotor. they recreated events and settings and characters from the original star wars trilogy... but they somehow kept original 'nuff that almost nobody minded... and many didn't even realize. a great deal of bio's success with kotor were simply 'cause of the warm and fuzzy nostalgia factor... which were only heightened by the negative backlash surrounding the new trilogy o' star war movies. bio repackaged the original star wars story... and they did a damn good job of it... much to our surprise. obsidian gots a problem with story. obsidian can't do what bio did. they cannot simply recreate the star wars story arc... 'cause we just got that from bio a year ago. people would dismiss kotor2 as a bad kotor rip-off if we got more of same. nevertheless, if you get too far away from the formula, you risk alienating the core of your fan base. furthermore, we must not forget that people is insane. 'members when coca-cola tried to market new coke? some of you is too young to really remembers, but it were a disaster for coca-cola. funny thing were that in blind taste tests people preferred new coke by a large margin. kotor2, like it or not, is new coke. even if kotor2 is better, people will honestly believe that it pales compared to kotor. we fully expect, when all is said and done that most folks will prefer the original kotor story. is almost inevitable. on the positive side, from what little we has heard so far, obsidian correctly put emphasis on npc character development

true... but how many ign reviews exaggerate bug problems? usually they downplay or dismiss, no? Gromnir will wait

we never had crippling bugs in kotor... like the leviathan bug. however, there were lots o' things that, when added together, really cheesed Gromnir off to no end. how on earth do they miss fact that there weren't no dw penalties for double weapons? in kotor there were feats that not work and powers that were screwed and quests that were broken and all the kinda minor stuff... stuff that you not expect to be busted in a console game. were no excuse for condition of kotor 'pon release... and ign claims kotor2 is worse? makes you wonder. HA! Good Fun! p.s. keep in mind that Gromnir enjoyed kotor... thought it were a fun game in spite of bug problems. is not like we is saying that the bugs ruined kotor. however, as a person who owns both an xbox and a pc, this is one more reason why we is inclined to wait for the pc version.

am also surprised that anybody would expect particularly great graphics from kotor2. heck, when you look at the screenies for kotor2 they look pretty much identical to what we seen in kotor... so why on earth is folks shocked at this point that kotor2 actually does look like kotor? heck, we didn't think the graphics were all that damned hot in kotor neither... and with how fast tech advances in the game industry, a sequel (kotor2) using same engine to a game that were itself were using some relatively old tech (kotor) did not seem like the most likely candidate for prettiest game of the year. *shrug* now, as to bugs... bugs in an xbox game... well, that is depressing. what the $@*& is the qa folks doing anyway? we were very unhappy with the 'mount of bugs that were in the original... and the sequel is worse? am still gonna get the game... but we may just hold out for the pc version. 'least if that version is buggy (and considering the vast number of hardware configurations it must work on there is little question in our mind that the initial pc release will have bug issues,) we know that it will eventually patched. will be a tough call for Gromnir come next Thursday or Friday. HA! Good Fun!

"So technically, you end up having a pretty large selection at different points in the game." hopefully that does not mean that actually we has a pretty small selection of npcs. the "technically" modifier does scare Gromnir somewhat. regardless, we will be getting the game so we will very shortly be able to answer our own questions. HA! Good Fun!

And what happened to Bastila? She was also tortured and had what was effectively her home on Dantooine destroyed. She will also have to live (if she does live) with the memory of having become everything she dedicated her life to fighting. All to save the man largely responsible for the near destruction of the Jedi Order and the republic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> bastilla FAILS... she succumbs to malak's torture. you not recall that? and as to dantooine being destroyed, did anybody here feels bad for her when that happened? did she seem as if she were really saddened by such things? 'course maybe you can argue that as a jedi she would not show emotion... but did you, the reader feel particularly bad 'bout dantooine? is just one of the examples of bad writing in kotor. heck, unlike leia who is told that "in a way" she has chosen aldderan to be destroyed, you find out that dantooine is glassed regardless... has nothing to do with you. "For that matter, why bring up Leia? Unless there's something the movies don't say about Leia's insidiously evil past, she doesn't need to be redeemed anymore than Yoda" we didn't... save in responding to you when you got sidetracked. we talks 'bout redemption, and you start talking generally 'bout sacrifice.... says that there is no star wars characters who do any sacrificing... which is patently bull. as to heroic sacrifice... yeah, bastilla sacrifices herself so you can get away from malak... but then she becomes his disciple after a couple of days of torture. oops. heck, even bastilla's sacrifice were a weak thing. where were the pathos? at end of Empire, when vader announces that he is luke's father and luke chooses to sacrifice self rather than join vader, tells us what you the viewer felt. you feel any such emotions for bastilla when she stays behind on the leviathan? bio had numerous opportunities... and they fumbles most of 'em. "If, by the time we had received the revelation, we conceived of Revan as a total and complete monster rather than a sort of vaguely understood dead Sith Lord, pursuing redemption might have been more interesting. " you can see how bio didn't develop revan as a redemptive character, but you is still arguing that they did a good job? is you arguing just to argue? redemption is a key theme in kotor... many characters feels they need to be redeemed for some past failure. jolee and bastilla and juhani and revan (possibly) and others... and that theme, which is an aspect of, but different from heroic sacrifice, were generally handled badly in kotor... and lord only knows why folks would even attempt to defend this aspect of kotor. HA! Good Fun!

"I'm not sure what redemption Leia receives, maybe the fact that she kisses her brother but ends up in a non-incestual relationship. It definitly has its merits." *sigh* again, leia and yoda and numerous other characters is NOT characters who is needing or exhibiting the power o' redemption. as the saying goes, "only the damned can be saved." yes, leia and luke and others show us Heroic Sacrifice (which kotor also flubs,) but they ain't redeemed as is vader. lets keep everything straight, 'kay? HA! Good Fun!

*shakes head sadly* only characters that sacrifice is obi and vader? we wonder if leia would agree. she were tortured and saw her home planet destroyed, no? don't forget luke's sacrifice neither. luke may survive his plunge into the void, but clearly he does not believe that he is escaping. can go on, but again, you is getting yourself mislead. why bring up yoda? yoda not need to be redeemed, did he? maybe you not get redemption. the fact that most of the star wars protagonists is hale and happy at end of return of jedi simply reinforces the notion that REDEMPTION requires a substantial sacrifice

"If you're talking about Darth Vader, given that he spent 99% of the original movies as the biggest baddest villain around, I think it bears a rather distinct difference from sacrificing the protagonist, which is the role you play as Revan." you make assumptions.... and get sidetracked. Revan Revelation 2/3 through game reminded you of what? is just the most glaring example of a post episode 4 plot point that made it into kotor. however, trying to explain away need for revan redemption completely ignores fact that REDEMPTION were clearly a theme in kotor just as it were in star wars... and while star wars had characters who made meaningful sacrifices, kotor did not. HA! Good Fun!

what is the point of redemption w/o sacrifice? sacrifice is include precisely to give meaning to the redemption. imagine spider-man 2's doc oc w/o sacrifice... or vader. if choice

"A third possibility was that they were going for a more original 'Star Wars' feel....and in Star Wars (as opposed to The Empire Strikes Back) the movie ends with the smiling heroes all receiving medals for their bravery, not Luke sacrificing himself to blow up the Death Star." this theory might work... if we completely ignored stuff like the Revan Revelation. bio definitely wanted the cheerful ending of the first star wars flick, but they were quite obviously and intentionally following the story arc of the original trilogy o

what bothered us 'bout the kotor plot? redemption w/o sacrifice is bad writing. maybe bioware wanted possibility of happy endings