Gromnir

as to the original query 'bout why bio did not do... announced reason: bio didn't choose to do a kotor2 'cause they did not wish to work on licensed products anymore. we suspect that bio also saw what many of us fans noticed... that a kotor2 sequel would be problematic on multiple levels. much of kotor success were based on nostalgia, helped along by backlash following episode 1 and 2. folks liked the original sw flicks and they were disappointed with the new movies... so bioware cooked up stories and characters and plot points that were lifted directly from the original flicks. with the aid of lucas, bio were able to make the game look and sound kewl. little emphasis was placed on making combat challenging and the rules simply existed to make powerful jedi characters w/o real concern for balance n' such. again, the goal seemed to be kewlness. those who would choose to make a sequel to kotor would not have the advantages o' nostalgia in the same way bio did with kotor... that pony only does one trick, but if they chose to use the same engine the developer in question would be stuck with all the obvious disadvantages that came with it. no doubt bio saw what Gromnir did

josh were sick and tired of crpgs... is not like he got stuck working at midway. were a pretty good gig for a guy who were a junior developer on one successful game, lead on two games that tanked, and were part of a team that cancelled 3 other games. regardless, the point is that josh was widely recognized in the gamer community... and that recognition was more a matter of his visibility on boards than due to his r

"Interaction with fans is'nt part of their job description." true enough... but if there ain't no interaction then there ain't no point in having boards. "your developers is not rock stars or sports idols, but they is the next best thing in these message board circles." we distinctly recall using the word "not." not rock stars. not sports idols. regardless, the developers manages to attract fans on these boards simply by being seen. recall when josh quit? we suddenly had a dozen news sites reporting on the "incident," and hundreds of posts popped up at bis and elsewhere asking if bis were now dead. dave m had quit a short time earlier and we never heard a peep 'bout it. ask self why there were different perception. *shrug* again, if you not have feedback, then there ain

perspective: Gromnir has, over the years, been the target of accusations from bis/obsidian developers and presidents n' such... accusations that looks real familiar when you look at phos' list. we has discovered just how meaningless those lists are. is a progression... almost always the same. firstest, the developer/organization will claim that they not mind criticism, even harsh criticism, as long as is thoughtful. 'course, when the thoughtful multi-page criticisms come rolling in, the organization is far from happy or satisfied. feedback need now be more than thoughtful... if you is gonna be critical w/o supplying practical solutions then you has supplied no constructive criticism at all. point out that you DID make suggestions of alternatives/solutions and the developer still complains that you is too antagonistic, etc... regardless, the average poster does not have degrees in computer science or english... chances are that they will have a very difficult time describing what was wrong with the kotor2 ending and the likelihood that they will come up with practical solutions to framerate problems seems even more doubtful. when a consumer feels that a product did not meet their expectations they wish to complain 'bout it... but chances are that they does not have the tools to give particularly insightful feedback... so they do the best they can... or the worst. they says, "the ending sucked." is they wrong for doing so? should those folks who not have mfa in english be precluded from posting on story issues? should folks w/o cs degrees be barred from discussing technical concerns. should folks who has not published their own rules system be prevented from complaining of balance issues? everybody wanna believe that they can accept criticism... even harsh criticism. very few can. have no more to say on this issue... 'less somebody from obsidian wanna respond. HA! Good Fun!

"Well, it's my impression that Feargus had wanted a more robust community, a place where people would talk about things with merit and substance, and not be filled with spam, flames, whining, griping, indignation and arrogant demands." nonsense. if every other post was simply along the lines of, "d00d! UR 50 kewl and your game r0x0rz," there would be no time spent considering the closure of the boards. that kinda spam is ok. however, when the comments is negative they is relegated to the status of, "spam, flames, whining, griping, indignation and arrogant demands." pardon our whining indignation, but Gromnir, as often as not, has been the target of complaints concerning many of those things listed 'bove, and we has seen just how fickle those handing out the labels can be. "YOU SUCK DONKEY BALLS," were the example fergie supplied as the kinda thing he found offensive. harsh criticism were ok as long as it have substance... or so he claimed. the donkey balls posts is, in point of fact, a relatively insignificant minority of total posts. however, it is true that virtually any negative post directed at obsidian can be described as being composed of, "whining, griping, indignation and arrogant demands." *shrug* as we has noted 'fore, as soon as these boards become more trouble than they is worth, they will be closed down. boards is cheap and effective advertising/marketing of obsidian product. if it not seem like the right message is being communicated 'bout obsidian products, then we can see why fergie would wanna put the kibosh on 'em. if it becomes significantly more expensive to maintain the boards, then they may no longer be so cost effective... benefits no longer outweigh costs. regardless, the ultimate problem arises from the fact that the spammers and flamers and complainers is NEGATIVE... but fergie surely ain't gonna say that the boards is being closed 'cause of surprising 'mounts of negative backlash following kotor2. where is diogenes when you need

if they close for the reasons stated, then we not give a darn if they ever reopen. we think that much of the criticism being directed at obsidian over kotor2 is unnecessary and ill-founded

well, we do believe that the notion of moving the obsidian community to codex is as ludicrous a suggestion as when exitum nominated himself as a prospective Obsidian moderator long time ago. *shudder* HA! Good Fun!

folks like to drag tolkien into these discussions, and we not know why. how many spells did gandalf ever cast in lotr? the protagonists get very little description in lotr. regardless, can you create a rpg system with no levels at all? sure you can. the rpg purists often turn up their noses at such tawdry and mundane things like leveling. is all

150 in how many years? HA! okie dokie. just seems like lots 'cause exit is usually on the sharp and pointy end of our posts. "NMA and codex arn't generally fans of this board, fyi. They think people on this board suck up too much.......which is why Feargus is threating to close it down.....because of all the ass kissing. It's just disgusting and he won't stand for it. " ok, that made us chuckle. HA! Good Fun!

Well, that is the challenge of making good multi-path games. And it can be done. Fallout 2, for example, lets you choose many different paths, not one of them containing an amnesiac, if memory doesn't fail me. Of course, I don't know if you would describe FO2 as a protagonist focused story, so maybe I might be writing this without knowing the proper context ... But multi-pathing has been achieved in the past, and in a more complex way than KOTOR. It certainly involves a L O T of work and might not be the most profitable endeavour for a software company, but it is possible to provide different layers of story for different player reactions. I just don't see why it is necessary to complicate things by always giving the Main Character a complex past in addition to a complex future. Your Shaw signature, by the way: Is that from Man and Superman? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the protagonist's story is pretty weak in fo2, and in point of fact, there is not much real multi-pathing of the protagonist's story in fo2. fo2 is able to create the illusion of non-linearity by having very few essential plot advancing points in the game... which is not a criticism on Gromnir's part. we happen to think that such an approach is viable if done well. we just not happen to think that Most of the writing in fo2 was particularly compelling... and the core story writing were typically kinda disappointing. fo2 is not a good example of how you can makes a great story

"Impossible? Why not simply give us a character without a past? Must we always have an experienced veteran with lots of stories to tell that he then has to forget about since they would also have to depend on the players preferences? Why not play a young Padawan that still has all the choices ahead of him? Why not play a young Jedi Knight that has to choose sides in a war, like Revan's initial decision? Why not have a Force Sensitive who has the freedom to choose a teacher?" doesn't change anything. past or future, you run into same problem. you write a protagonist focused story where the protagonist can choose to be good or bad or diplomatic or sneaky and you is gonna always have problems. how you write A story for an infinite variety of characters? yeah, if you got a story of self-discovery where the protagonist is special, then the past will always be a factor... will always be prophecies or some other such nonsense, but the problem remains with or without the issues of the past recollection. HA! Good Fun!

"I sort of agree with what your both getting at." don't throw us in with drak. we disagree with his approach. we agree on the problem, but hardly 'bout the solutions. taking character generation out of the hands of the player is hardly necessary and doing so results in a game that is less an crpg and more of an adventure game. HA! Good Fun!

a couple of quick observations

"Yes, your character's capabilities increase - at the same level that your opponent's capabilites do. The oft-cited analogy of a treadmill is accurate." hardly. a typical low level mage has a very small spell repertoire. the higher level mage is not limited to sleep or magic missile as his only combat spells. he might have mind dominating spells or fireballs or lightning bolts or poison cloud type stuff... and he will have an opportunity to use those spells in the appropriate situations. that low level mage's party mates is equally limited in their chosen classes. a fighter in d&d may be able to use all martial weapons at level 1, but he can only use basic vanilla attacks with each o' those weapons.... no bull rushes or whirlwind attacks or rapid shots. heck, even if your 1st level fighter does have power attack chances is he ain't gonna use it much, 'cause his bab sucks so bad. the fact that your enemies get tougher as your character levels is a pointless observation. 'course the enemies get tougher... they has to get tougher if game is gonna continue to be challenging and fun. however, leveling for the pc inevitably results in more options for the pc (both in terms of character development and viable tactics) for the character... and more options (if balanced,) is always a good thing. HA! Good Fun!

people like to level. we can take or leave, but if Gromnir were designing a crpg rule system we would have quick leveling... lots of levelling. 'course, there is no reason why a 20th level character need be particularly powerful. a rabid wolf could be a 10th level encounter if that is what you wants. a dragon might be a 100th level encounter. it not matter, but the point is that the you can has as many or as few levels as you wish... the main difficulty would be making such a fast level-up experience rewarding and balanced. d&d is not the only system. d&d has established that a 20th level character is extremely powerful. some demon lords gots CRs in the low 20s. d&d is a crappy system for a crpg in part 'cause it takes so few levels to become Superman in Chainmail. HA! Good Fun!

rpg codex? move this community to codex? posting at codex is like swimming in a big city public pool. little kids not recognize how dirty and filthy such pools is... they not mind. they splash 'bout like happy little maniacs. adults, on the other hand, can't help but cringe at the thought of all those kids pissing themselves in those communal waters

you is nuts... honest. interplay and fergie had to deal with wotc for years... and you think bio is an issue? ask josh 'bout wotc interference with ip... hilarious. HA! is in obsidian's best interest to have an amicable relationship with their partners, but if you honestly think that bio and la is running the boards then you is crazier than we thought. nuts. you is trying to imagine problems for fergie. why not simply take his posts at face value? fergie thinks the fans is too unruly... too rude... and he blames obsidian silence on those fans. 'course it ain't like we ever saw much obsidian/fan dialogue on this board so it sounds like cheap rationalization to Gromnir... even so, your wacky conspiracy theories require us to ignore fergie's explanations and accept yours... and how likely is that? HA! Good Fun!

what the hell does that have to do with the boards? surely you ain't suggesting that bio or lucas is jamming fergie up over the boards. HA! Good Fun!

Correlation, causation, etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> agreed. causality is almost completely lacking. we must accept that it is difficult to form a causal chain 'tween troika's general arrogance, their belligerent attitude towards fans, and their ultimate demise. nevertheless, we will admit that such behaviors made us far less sorry to see them fail. ... *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

so, fergie is taking his ball and going home? am disappointed. am not too surprised, but am disappointed even so... you know, the truth of the matter is that we probably wouldn't/won't miss these boards... or fergie's complaining

witch-hunt is not, nor has it ever been, simply a term used to suggest a process for the finding of blame. if is not used to describe the hunting of witches and warlocks, then it gots a very different meaning... is a tool of persecution. ... and you is kinda silly if you actually believe that 1) fergie simply holds the purse strings at obsidian, and 2) the guy who holds the purse strings cannot be blamed for shortcomings of projects. these points should be self evident to 99% of folks who read this board, so we not feel any great need to respond further... 'less we get actual honest sounding questions on the issues. we gots an urge to makes an analogy to ownership/management of professional sports teams, but we know that such sports analogies tend to be useless with the present demographics on a crpg development board. "Because of the politics of business the team atmosphere on a project- any project, not just KotOR II- can't always turn out to be the dream team you might want it to be. And when it's not- things can get ugly. " huh? maybe you reread that. in any event, we not expect or want a dream team. will always be some writers who is better than others. will be some programmers who is better than others. will be qa guys who is better than others. is no excuse for incompetence. regardless, the thing 'bout a team is that when it works as it should, the results is gonna be greater than the sum of the parts would suggest... the level o' contribution of the least capable/able members is raised and the most profficient members production does not suffer. no game development house we know of is really a dream team... and things is not doomed to ugliness 'cause of it. was iwd a dream team? was iwd a good situation for any development team? iwd were a short development cycle and the development team included a number of first-time or largely inexperienced developers. given just how little time and resources they had for that game, Gromnir was very impressed with the final product. the writing and dialogue in iwd (though having less of it than bg1,) were actually superior to bg1. biggest problem with iwd is that it were too successful... and fergie sacrificed other potential products in an attempt to get lucky with another iwd kinda game.. though we understand why he attempted to do so. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking that you misunderstand... a couple things actually. for the most part we liked kotor2... is not like we is looking to blame somebody for the failure of the game... 'cause it were not a failure as far as we is concerned. however, there were a number of characters that was underdeveloped and there was some that had habitually BAD dialogue. if all was bad then we could simply accept that obsidian/bis folks can't write. if you not got writing talent, then you can't write good dialogue. however, some of the kotor2 dialogues and characters was very good. if some is good and some is bad then that means that the good writers did not help their fellows out... which is, in our experience, unforgivable. maybe they not have enough time or maybe they simply not have the inclination to help, but regardless, there were a big gap 'tweens the good and bad writing in kotor2. the question of who is ultimately to blame does not concern us... though according to your reasoning we suspect that uncle fergie is actually where the buck stops. *shrug* also, we not think you know what the meaning o' witch-hunt is. HA! Good Fun!

but she has all the best lines in the game. for that reason alone she is worth keeping 'round as long as possible. ... is worth noting that some of the dialogue and characters in kotor2 is atrocious.... which means that some of the writing in kotor2 was atrocious. the less talented writers no doubt did their bestest, and we not blame them for kotor2's shortcomings. is the good writers who worked on kotor2 who is to blame. is the faults of the good writers who no doubt saw the shortcomings in their fellow's work and did not help or criticize when needed to make kotor2 uniformly good. when bad writers write badly it is cause for sadness, but when good writers allow bad writing to remain in their work... that is unforgivable. the talented writers at bis/obsidian owe their fans their best effort, but they also owe their co-workers guidance and support. just something to consider. HA! Good Fun!