Gromnir

"Grom, I don't think that is reasonable or practical to pander to the

"Don't forget that NwN 2 is equal parts a empowerment for modders, too." no it isn't... and it would help if the developers figured that out sooner rather than later. according to some comments made by biowarians, less than 10% of nwn purchasers ever played a mod... and far fewer ever made a mod. is not equal... not by a long shot. "I think it is beyond obvious that the beginning is where you start" what is even more obvious is that people always want more. tell us that it makes more sense to start with the basics completely ignores a large % of those 2 million nwn fans who unreasonably or not, wants... more. we gots perspective... and so too should josh. we recall when iwd2 were being developed and josh offered up to the board for feedback some kit ideas. they were very solid and balanced... and they were absolutely hated. HA! Good Fun!

actually, if we recall right, it is even less than that. ghostwise can communicate telepathically with another creature they gots a languge in common with at a very short range. simply call it a Spirit Voice instead of telepathy and the minor ability goes from psionic to mystic... explain as being some kinda link with nature or quasi-druidic ability. problem solved. and eldar telling us how much variation the core rules got is kinda meaningless as we already noted how much variation the core rules offer.. we specific noted that core rules gots more options than we saw in the original nwn and its expansions. forget the reality, am talking 'bout perception... and the weight o' player expectations. peoples played nwn and the expansions at levels 1-30+, and they had a bunch of PrC, and they saw lots of loot and critters. nwn2 is gonna have fewer PrCs... and that right there is a big difference. you don't think so? simply looks at the nwn boards both before and after release. demand for each person's personal favorite PrC is probaly one of the most common recurring threads you will have seen. am also not talking 'bout personal wants... 'cause Gromnir will be satisfied if gameplay is solid and if they gets domains better than the nwn weirdness. ufortunately we ain't the average crpg or d&d or FR fan. from what we can tell, the average nwn player wants to play as a drow death knight, dual wielding vorpal halberds... and he wants an opportunity kill elminster and make wild sweaty monkey love with lolth. now, Gromnir am recognizing that no developer is gonna make such a game, and perhaps we is being a smidge hyperbolic, but we thinks that if you don't understand your audience you is gonna be more than a little disappointed at their reaction. afterwards the obsidian developers can pull a ps:t fanboi kinda thing and says that they were casting pearls before swine, but such excuses has rarely been particularly moving. the fans of nwn is NOT the handful of modders you see on the nwn boards... and they is NOT the hardcore crpg fans you see 'round here or at codex or at bioware. nwn sold 2 million copies and the vast majority o' players never played a mod or played online with a pnp style party... evar. there is lots of folks out there who play these games simply to level up and gain loot... and many of the folks who buy nwn2 is gonna be doing so in the hopes that the characters they create in nwn2 will have more fantastic powers and more powerful loot than they did in nwn... and they will wanna play a drow who gets an opportunity to kill elminster and score with lolth. HA! Good Fun!

while the cause and effect is suspect, we gots no problem believing that the average gamer is a pot smoking slacker. ... yeah, we is talking 'bout all of you. HA! Good Fun!

btw, while we applaud josh's desire to get the core right, ('cause we is almost as snobbish as he is 'bout such things,) one wonders how the fans will react. part o' the formula for movie sequels is to always gets bigger explosions and crazier fight scenes, right? similar line o' thinking exists in games. sequels in crpgs offer More Powhaz and More 10075 than predecessors. compare bg2 available character development and loot options to bg1. fallout 2 v. fallout? kotor2 v. kotor? . josh and Gromnir can point out that a genuine core implementation of d&d gives far more character options than nwn and all the expansions combined, but the average fan probably ain't gonna see it that way. where is all the prestige classes and 1337 abilities? *shrug* we thinks josh is doing the right way... but sometimes the right way ain't what people want. HA! Good Fun! ps drow is munchkiny, specially with stoopid sunlight adaptation feats, but they keeps finding their way into pnp and crpg games 'cause that is what fans want... and the developers know that the fans want powerful drow. sometimes the smart developer simply gotta cave to will of the masses.

ghostwise halflings is excellent combatants. if nwn2 emphasis is on core, then this fact is even more true. using basic feats and classes and races of 3.5 D&D, a spring attack barbarian multi-class (add fighter or ranger or rogue depending on your particular personal powergaming notions,) character offers some very powerful builds. also, the ghostwise special ability ain't really anymore psionics than is so many other minor mind affecting/reading/enchantment kinda spells. sleep? charm? heck, it seems like virtually every fiend or celestial gots a kinda magical telepathy that allows it to communicate with any critter... and the ghostwise talent is far less broad than the telepathy thing. if the ghostwise ability is "too psionic" for some folks we gotta wonder how they reacts to other such perversions in da rules. nevertheless, the ghostwise "psionic" ability is not really useful in a sp crpg game. in pnp a clever player can use in many ways that just can't be translated to crpg. got no problem with dropping the ghostwise, 'cause it really wouldn't work in a crpg anyways...'least not w/o lots of resources being spent to actualize... and that ain't cost-effective. HA! Good Fun!

"Specifically, Moore told the Reporter he had toyed with the idea of a Galactica role-playing game "with Internet participation." " we expect that it would work more like star wars galaxies. didn't get to watch much of season 2, but ain't the humans on some sorta planet now, under cylon control? set the game on the planet and lets you choose human or cylon options. got potential for space fights and terrestrial fights... or you could choose more social interactions rather than simply fighting the rebels or being the rebels. regardless, "internet participation" in this day and age says mmorpg to Gromnir. HA! Good Fun!

but oblivion is a fantasy crpg? you got a nice screenie of shrubbery. would such a thing interest a gamer unless he were playing one of those deer hunter games? HA! Good Fun!

"By the way, which game does this screenshot remind you of?" one of them deer hunter games? HA! Good Fun!

this obtuseness is... perplexing. did bio benefit from some luck in making bg? sure, why not. but that ain't what you has been claiming. is a far different thing to attribute all bio success to ip and luck and hype than it is to note that bio benefited from some luck along the way. *shrug* is too much sp for even Gromnir to handle at this point. HA! Good Fun!

... am wondering if you is doing on purpose. "If I was a publisher between the time of BG and KOTOR who would I go to to make an RPG ? Bioware. Why would I go to Bioware ? Because they made BG/II." yes, 'cause bioware showed selves to be more than competent at developing games. duh. they were the developers of BG1 and BG2 and the expansions for both games... all of which sold well. they also developed NWN and the expansions for that game... games which outsold the bgs. so yeah, we can see why a normal and rational publisher would be interested in bio. duh. somehow to distill all bio success down to happenstance is beyond ridiculous. "Actually I pointed out the other games up until JE all were based on well established properties." we thinks we has been down that road before. d&d has NOT been a particularly successful license for anybody save bioware. star wars ain't been quite the Kiss o' Death that d&d has been recently, but is close. you hardly made a point with that nonsense... so we is surprised you would bring up again. some folks don't know when they has dug themselves such a deep hole that they ain't never gonna get out... but still they dig. "Never said that. I said they got lucky with IP because of the AD&D property." well no, that ain't all you said... but we will not insult everybody by quoting you ad nauseum. in any event, you gots less mileage with the D&D crutch than with most of your other comments, so we don't know why you retreat to such a lousy argument. HA! Good Fun!

btw, am still confused as to why you insist that all bio accolades is the result of some sorta aura that were created by Interplay in the form of bg. lord knows Gromnir doesn't even believe that bg were that great a game... but to give all credit for bio success to interplay and luck is just insane. ... is no way you can honestly believe what you is saying... you is just arguing to see your words on screen at this point. HA! Good Fun!

At the time of BG they had no RPG experience and had no intention of making an RPG. Remember they wanted to make an RTS. So I stand by my they got a lucky break. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> what kinda reasoning is that? what was orson welles' first movie? citizen kane? did bio get help from fergie and company as they built bg? sure they did, but it were still the biowarians who developed... and regardless, you is still ignoring the fact that bio has made many other games following BG... games that has done very well for the most part. you has somehow convinced self that the only reason people buy bio games is 'cause they liked bg... and the only reason bg were any good is 'cause bio got lucky. nonsense. is like your conspiracy theories that require us to ignore any rational or plausible explanation in favor of the notion that bio has managed to hypnotize millions of people into buying their games, and that Interplay, a now defunct publisher of crpgs, were the real Mesmer, while bio were simply the front man. HA! btw, we has met maybe 2 authors of fiction in the past 20 years who wrotes books that turned out as they envisioned 'em when they were outlining. at some point the book developes its own voice, and the thing writes itself. the fact that bg didn't end up as the kanadians first envisioned it is more likely the rule rather than the exception. HA! Good Fun!

we compared bio to bis? sure we did. so, in spite of all the games both developers made (or failed to make,) you limit to iwd v. bg? come now. as to offering an alternative to your Hype + Luck nonsense? ... you is kidding, right? here is a thought: bio is a competent game developer. what a novel notion eh? the notion that bio managed to make games that people wished to buy is so strange that it not even occur to you? HA! the OBVIOUS explanation for why bio has been succesful over the many years is that they is good at what they do. duh. HA! Good Fun!

btw, Gromnir did attempt to point out that for a game that had been imagined out of existence by obsidian boardies, the bio developers were spending lots of time talking 'bout it. most obvious reason for lack o' news is the lack o' a publisher... 'cause otherwise we gotta prop up some grand conspiracy theory that involves Biowarians pretending to develop and discuss a game they got no intention of actually releasing. HA! Good Fun!

Both are parts of the answer. BIO got lucky with the BG thing. If you want to offer another explanation then feel free. How long did BIS have to work on IWD ? You cant compare BIS because BIS didnt have the same development times alloted to them. Certainly didnt have the same advertising budget either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> where did we compare iwd to bg? you noted that bio got lucky when they hooked up with interplay, and Gromnir pointed out that bis WAS interplay. if the interplay connection were such a major factor, then why did the bis games do so poorly compared to the bio games. you still ain't answered that. really, you is just being silly now if all you got is luck and hype. HA! Good Fun!

Look how hyped games like BG/II were compared to IWD/II. Theres your answer. Dosnt really matter if NwN wasnt under interplay it was still with whoever had the rights to D&D. Biowares rep was built on such properties and that started with the lucky break of doing an AD&D game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> luck AND hype. well, there's your answer then. *snort* you is bugnuts... honest. bio got lucky, but bis didn't. yup, that's the explanation. HA! Good Fun!

bethesda really shoulda' made enchanting weapons & items more intuitive... or they shoulda' done a better job of explaining in the game. HA! Good Fun!

No it's really very simple. Who else was there? The reason is easy. There was no one else around to it and Bioware owe their RPG rep to the lucky break they got with IP. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> who else was there? were all kinds of crpg developers back then. looks at all the mediocre games and complete failures that were made...games like revenant and darkstone and arcanum, to name just a few. bio got lucky and they only got sales 'cause of d&d... those were your reasons, right? HA! your insanity is unassailable when you continue to refuse to acknowledge that black isle didn't enjoy the same "luck" working with interplay that bio did. if bio got lucky to be working with the amazing Interplay publishing co., then black isle sales shoulda' been downright fantasmalicious, no? forget the fact that bio severed ties from IP and ignore reality that bio's biggest sellers came after leaving IP if you must ('cause you will,) but please, explain to us how bio could be so lucky to hook up with IP, and black isle, the development arm of Interplay, could be so preternaturally snake bit. well, at least you seems to have abandoned the notion that bio owes fame and fortune and continued sucess to wotc or lucas. were making d&d games, 'cause oddly 'nuff, nobody else has been able to reap any such benefits from d&d logo. so much for that theory. some of you people is nuts. the funny thing is, some clown over at codex were parroting sp... but he were trying that tired bird song to explain away fergie's early business success. fergie simply got lucky to land kotor2 and nwn2, and now that such luck has obviously run out (based on lord only knows what evidence,) obsidian is doomed, DOOMED! see, the argument goes that fergie wouldn't be nothing w/o bioware. gets both sequels 'cause somehow he happened to be first name lucas and atari could think of, or 'cause fergie hooked up the kanadian bio docs with $1000 hookers whenever they were in LA... or some other equally implausible reasoning. luck? blame on luck is so much bs. blame on luck is like blaming on magic fearies or sunspots or the illuminati... 'cause you not need no proof for such things. in fact, the absence of proof is all that makes such arguments plausible. bah. congrats on out codexian the codexers. HA! Good Fun!

*sigh* "How many non D&D tiltes have failed ? How interesting did Biowares original idea for the game (name I completely forget) sound ? " "Why was Bioware chosen for NwN ? Because of BG. Why were they chosen for KOTOR ? BG/BGII. "Jade Empire you can see as Biowares first attempt to escape from doing licenses. And as you yourself said it was hardly a spectacular success." by pointing out that both non-d&d games & d&d games fail you has acheived... what? you prove our point: regardless of the recognizable logo on the box, games sometimes fail. now name the d&d pc crpg sales success made in the last 8 years that were NOT bioware titles. iwd? yeah, that is real strong evidence that the d&d logo makes for big sales. 1 title NOT bioware's that were making money. on consoles bg: dark alliance dropped in price real fast... am not sure how much of a winner that were. in either case, using sp logic, the only reason that either of those titles made any money is 'cause of bioware's work on bg... so bio gets credit for those 2, right? as to why bio were chosen for kotor and nwn, that is a more complicated issue than you would makes it appear to be. btw, nwn outsold bg1 and bg2. from a sales standpoint, and possibly from publisher perspective, nwn were the big winner from bio. sp is one of those insane bio haters... has dogma 'stead of reason. HA! Good Fun!

I am ? Whether or not Bioware jumped ship dosnt change that they had a very lucky break. Interplay had D&D at the time so I'd definately call that lucky.Biowares name was made with those two titles. MDK isnt really well known. Read the bits I've bolded. What that says to me is the big sales have been of known properties. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you is being silly as vol, but opposite. how many d&d titles has failed? more than has made money... in fact, before bg1 the franchise were often described as "dead" as far as crpgs were concerned... and the pnp game weren't far behind. bg1 resurrected d&d, not the other way 'round how many star wars games has failed? more than has made money... etc. and again, you misses the point. if bio success were simply luck in being tied to IP, then why did bis and IP end up in the tank? bio is still 'round. bio is making games. bis, which were the development arm of the publisher bio were so damned lucky to be involved with, died... and their games didn't sell near as well even when they were still around. HA! Good Fun!

we keep within 10 years. anachronox were better and diablo 2 were better at being the kinda game oblivion tries to be. other than bg1, iwd2 and how, we prefer every crpg made by bis and bioware to oblivion.... which is quite a list in and of itself. add in fallout as it were pre-bis. we took the dare and named far more than 1. HA! Good Fun!

Sometimes they fall for thier own hype. There are two factors when it comes to Bioware though. 1. They got very luck with Interplay and BG1/2. 2. They have had the CRPG field more or less to themselves for quite a number of years. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you ignore reality. bis didn't have as much luck with interplay as did bio? HA! and there weren't a flood of crpgs following diablo, the game that resurrected the genre? most of 'em is so bad that you don't recall maybe. and let us not forget that bio released far more than bg1 + bg2, and sales for almost all has been very good... excepting mdk2 and je. the bio fanboi thing is as incomprehensible to us as is the people who insist on ignoring what bio has accomplished. you both gots your dogma. HA! Good Fun!

"So let me help you with the thinking part. It means that it looks like Bioware is wasting a lot more resources on marketing/developing their next console action RPG than on their next PC title. " and you arrive at such a conclusion 'cause the me site has more stuff on it, right? *snort* again, as we noted only a post ago, the da undertaking is Huge in scope, and they not even has settled on a publisher. they not necessarily have neither 'nuff material to be worth revealing, and they very likely got reasons to not wanting to step on toes of the eventual publisher... a publisher who typically handles the release o' such info. is all kinds of likely reasons for not making more info readily available, but somehow a handful of smart guys reach the most dubious of conclusions. the way some folks arrive at conclusions w/o any kinda support save for their gut boggles the mind. *shrug* you can't fight the conspiracy theorists. HA! Good Fun!

am not sure what that proves. spend 20 minutes reading the da boards and you can see that the developers is working on the title... and actually responding to fan questions. the fact that the da site is offering ups a paucity o' info means what to you? means that bio ain't working on da? heck, bg3 never had a site, so we guess josh should quit bitching 'bout that title getting killed 'cause it never really existed and nobody were really working on it anyways, yes? that being said, Gromnir does wonder if bio is trying to become the sisyphus of the game development world. nwn were not the failure some suggest, but it were not the game bio hoped it would be. even so, bio spent 5 years on a game that were incomplete in every aspect. the biowarians, post nwn, admitted that they tried to do too much in creating a compelling sp crpg & a toolset & dm client. too much... somewhere maj. general stanislaw sosabowski were turning in his grave. so what is they doing for da? the same damn thing. 'stead of trying to makes a really good sp game or mp platform, they is again trying to do both... but this time they is gonna improve sp campaign by making it shorter. ... we like the biowarians well enough, but sometimes we wonder if they is completely oblivious... kinda likes how they insist that je were a wonderful selling game and the start of a grand new franchise. HA! Good Fun!