Gromnir

"In any case, I'm probably more open-minded about this "announcement" because I'm actually in favor of shorter, more condensed games. I don't want a 60-hr game with 75% spent in dungeons fighting mobs of morons." and that must mean that you don't want a 40 hour game with excellent story and compelling gameplay, right? 20 announced hours is half of 40... and announced hours tends to be inflated anyways. so tell obsidian that 20 is ok if you wish, but we thinks that you is sending the wrong message. HA! Good Fun!

am recalling that you didn't seem to like oblivion much... and keeps in mind that as is typically the case, you finished in less time than developer announced. so how long you thinks nwn2 will actually be for you? HA! Good Fun!

"Is it me, or is there an overwhelming sense of cynicism here? How about a little positivity? Would it kill you guys not to condemn design decisions until you've actually had an opportunity to sit down and play the game" if you don't wanna see more developers making shorter games, then tell them so. the fan loyalty thing is something we don't get. this is your opportunity as a consumer to speak to developers and tell 'em what you want and don't want. do you want a game you can finish in a single weekend? if so, then tell obsidian that 20 hours is good and great... but if you want more, then spit and curse and fume (w/i reason) and don't give a damned inch. fan loyalty is a stoopid and misguided notion. you not ever get a better game 'cause you tell josh or fergie or chrisA how perfect they is. you needs to be giving positive and negative criticism to be getting better games... and you gotta be willing to not buy games that seems to be going in a direction opposite of what you want. if you buy nwn2 at announced 20 hours then you is telling developers and publishers in the loudest voice possible that 20 hours is 'nuff for you... and publishers and developers will continue to shrinks games so that they not have to spend more money making. optimism is wasted. HA! Good Fun!

"That's exactly my point, which is why I'm baffled at the decision to release the game only 20 hours long." gotta admit that Gromnir is surprised. the number of mp players of nwn were far less than the sp players, so we understands why obsidian would focus more on sp applications of their sequel game. 'course we woulda' thought that such devotion and attention to sp over mp would result in a longer sp campaign than 20 hours... which is pretty much what one expects from a pc crpg expansion. maybe nwn2 is so damn amazing that 20 or fewer hours is more than enough... but it is gonna have to be pretty darn amazing. HA! Good Fun!

"Heart of Winter was crap because the content stunk. If it were twice as long, it would've been even crappier." agreed, but keeps in mind that the most frequent complaints were 'bout length rather than content... also be aware that time estimates for HoW were in the 25 hour range, and many people got far less. so how long will nwn actually be for most of us posters? 15 hours? 10? for those of you who likes oblivion, go back and sees where you were in game at 15-20 hours... and ask self if you woulda' been satisfied if game had stopped at that point. am not suggesting that a 20 hour game cannot satisfy, but we gotta note that we would be surprised if such a game did. HA! Good Fun!

sure, 'cause lots of underprivelaged children is needing an xbox 360. is all kinds of stuff we do for charity, but donating consoles and video cards is on our list of things to gives to kids right 'fore pr0n. as to how we get such stuff... well, the law racket ain't as easy as some might expect. sure, if you is a partner or associate for some big firm you can expect regular paychecks, but Gromnir tends to represent folks who got no money, and the defendants is often real good at hiding their money. winning a big award is not meaning that Gromnir gets a new porsche. instead we may get... stuff. HA! Good Fun!

ain't no fan of jade empires is Gromnir, but we will note that we had more than 20 hours invested in the game when we quit, and we weren't right at the end of the game. also, there were considerable number of quests that we simply weren't intereted in 'nuff to address, so we coulda' gotten even more hours o' gameplay out of it. am not denying that Jade Empire were relatively short... and we ain't saying that we liked it, but the 20 hour and less estimates is seeming odd to us. that being said, Gromnir recalls the last game that fergie claimed were in the 20-30 hour range. anybody recall HoW? we got a little better than 10 hours from HoW. fergie has let his fans down in the past, and we expect that the fallout from HoW were not something fergie would wanna repeat... but perhaps we is wrong. HA! Good Fun!

got an xbox 360 'bout a month ago... but we ain't hooked it up as we just ain't seen a reason to do so. as is our custom, Gromnir waited for some grateful person to purchase us a console... as we ain't never actually bought one ourself... but there has been no need to even hook it up as yet. only game we mighta' considered buying for 360 so far is oblivion, and somebody else gave us a copy of that for the pc. gots our tivo and our hd receiver and our sound sytem and our dvd player/burner all hooked up to the tv right now... and we not feels like adding 'nother bit o' hardware to the mess o' wires that we already gots monopolizing a corner of our family room would be worth the effort 'less there comes along a game we really wanna play. HA! Good Fun!

nothing wrong with that. diablo were one of the most popular pc games evar. no doubt bethesda would be happy at such comparisons... but for some reason certain people gets offended if you compare a crpg to diablo, no matter how accurate. HA! Good Fun!

there doesn't seem to be any other way to play it. max your stats and collect 1007, 'cause as eldar has noted once or twice, ther writing and quests is prett lame unless you is adding imagined content into the game. the main motivation for playing oblivion is, as far as we can tell, to get the next new power or the kewl new armour... which is pretty much the point o' diablo. heck, mk has played oblivion to the point where his character is in the level 40 range. obviously he ain't simply playing to uncover new quests when you gets that kinda levels... 'cause there just ain't that many interesting characters and quests out there. when you is playing simply to be able to gets 'nuff alchemy skill to create an uber potion, or you is playing to find that glass helmet you really want, then you is playing a game much like diablo. in any event, if Gromnir does the rational thing and relies pretty much soley on his major skills, by the time he gets to 10th level he is gonna be half as powerful as somebody who developed his character by increasing minor skills... and since the scale system is only concerned with level... is no doubt lots of people who hit on the right combination of skills such that they is having fun with oblivion. is no doubt that some people is enjoying finding the nexts amazing potion combinationand they will happily continue to play until they find the next bit of powerful loot. is no doubt that betehsda made a game that appealed to many people... they has made a succesful game, but if the best you can do is tell sombeody that they is playing oblivion wrong, then perhaps oblivion ain't the crpg you think it is. HA Good Fun!

"I'm playing an heavily armored (but unarmed) tank." that is what Gromnir started doing... right before we quit. see, we couldn't seems to get our strength or endurance up in game, so our blade and light armour using mage type were forced to go 'round in heavy armour fighting unarmed. is amazing how fast our strength and endurace climbed thereafter... which is one reason we quit. used conjuration and alteration magic all the time, but rarely could we gets +4 or +5 in int or will 'cause we had almost all the magic stuff as a major skill... but minor skills increase big time and not count 'gainst level progression. if you gotta use silly asinine tactics to level, then something is wrong with the game, ss's "more realistic" claims notwithstanding. HA! Good Fun!

for a moment Gromnir will pretend that d&d is nothing more than ph, dm guide and mm... 'cause some of the stuff that came 'round after those books were released is wacky. why is bard's weaker than other spellcasters... 'cause you do realize that bards can cast spells in d&d, right? the problem with bards is not that they is weak. biggest problem with bards being perceived as weak is that rookie dms don't know how to handle skill checks as easy as they handles combat. bards depend on skills... and if your dm has lots of skills checks then your bard can very easily becomes the best damned utility character in your party. wotc, back when they were building 3e, seemed to diagree with vol in a big way... 'cause they kept telling us how 3e were gonna be balanced and streamlined and simplified... and they removed kits, and they got rid of Paladins and Rangers having to start off with incredible scores, and a thousand other things minor and major. back when wotc were trying to makes a better rule system they kept mentioning balance. and assuming vol is right 'bout how bards is weak, a risky proposition at best, why should bards be weaker than other character classes? d&d bards ain't simply muscicians any more than d&d priests is simply folks who do marriages and baptisms. why makes it so that the only the hardcore role-players would choose to play the gimp? why makes it so that playing a bard is starting with a handicap? rare is the person who wants to play the weakest character in the party... so why has obviously weaker characters? balance for Gromnir's rules is tough, 'cause we gotta consider all the ways that 8 serious roleplayers might manages to break our rules... accidentaly or on purpose. d&d and d&d crpgs is rule systems played by thousands and even millions... and many of those people is just looking for the loopholes. we don't envy the folks who gotta try and balance da rulez, but we thinks that it is a necessity. when balance is good nobody notices, but when balance is bad the game begins to fall apart... much as 2d did. now keeps in mind that Gromnir is fully aware that 2e had all sorts of problems other than balance... and we can discuss those too if you wish, but we thinks that peoples really undervalues balance as a concern... 'cause usually balance from a player pov means that some jerk developer or designer wants to nerf his character. btw, here is where Gromnir hopes that obsidian does more to makes skill checks meaningful in the nwn2 sp campaign. HA! Good Fun!

"I can even remember arguing the opposite side with you a while back when you said Sawyer was too concerned with balance." should check yourself for alzheimers. as a guy who has built a couple of rules systems ourself, we has always made balance a priority, 'cause we has seen just how fast all those great characters and absorbing settings can gets forgotten as people quibble over rules... and a large portion of those quibbles is balance related. most minor rules stuff you can change on the fly, but once folks has invested large 'mounts of time and effort on their character they gets mean when you tell 'em they gotta redesign Bob the Butcher for game balance. game balance is best addressed before you starts a serious campaign... get your playtesting out of the way as much as possible before people becomes emotionaly attached. now, that being said, we has argued with josh over his approach to balance many times. his limited ammo notions in a crpg as a balance tool makes us cringe, and we thinks that playing a full campaign to test balance of a rule system is a waste of time when limited trial encounters seems to be much more efficient, but we ain't never gonna jam josh up 'bout balance. "As far as PnP goes, I've probably played as much DnD as anyone here and clerics aren't over represented as a class choice." am not sure who you is responding to. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

am not sure how eldar is thinking that he is better quaified to draw conclusions 'bout the shift to cleric centric play in alfa when he not even seem to know what alfa is and has never spoken with alfa players. so, we helps. alfa gots lots of that homebrew stuff... is nearly 100mb of dowload material just to play on an alfa server, and most of that stuff is content added to makes alfa more like pnp than nwn. simple stuff likes no sleeping at will and healing kits that act likes pnp rules as posed to being little more than odd shaped healing potions is just tip o' iceberg. in any event, eldar won't be convinced by anything it seems. impressions of pnp players not work. trends in gameplay not work. we suspect that an appeal to authority wouldn't work... has josh cook up one of his crazy priest o' bane + PrC juggernauts. in any event, Gromnir ain't saying that the 3e core cleric is unbalanced. can indeed be made powerful, but as we noted before, the 3e version were far more balanced and sensible than the 2e specialty priest nonsense. however, there is clearly unbalanced domains and feats and prestige classes that can indeed makes a 3e cleric a nightmare... and choosing to downplay balance concerns related to clerics or any other class 'cause perfect balance is impossible is as foolish as downplay writing concerns 'cause perfect approval of story is impossible. nobody ever said that balance is the only concern for developers... or even that it should be the mostest important concern. however, balance IS a concern. bethesda's ham fisted approach proves the opposite of what you s'pose. bethesda used a particularly crappy and simple approach to achieve balance, and it kinda bit them in the arse. question: when d&d made the shift from 2e to 3e, they got rid of kits in spite of kit popularity. why? HA! Good Fun!

btw, take it for what it is worth, but Gromnir were involved with a couple of the larger pws for nwn and we watched how character choices... changed. alfa were one of those snobbish role-player pws... folks who s'posed didn't care 'bout powergaming. pws didn't interest us too much, but some of the folks involved with alfa were good people, and role-play is mostly bout the folks sitting at the table with you... more so than the rules, so we joined. anyways, were very few clerics when alfa got started, so much so that it were kinda tough for some folks to put together adventuring parties with a requisite healer. there were a character bank where folks had their starting character posted, and many had a bio attached... though people were not actually compelled to use their posted character to start play. the first character for very few people were a cleric. fewer bards. ... lots more people chose cleric for their second character... after character attempt 1 died w/i hours. even more chose cleric for their third try. lots o' clerics. HA! Good Fun!

"No, no. We're in different conversations. You must equate the statement, "You can't please everyone" to mean "You can't please everyone and therefore you shouldn't try to please anyone."" wrong. please reread. we never suggested that your observation meant that you thought balance should be abandonded. we DID note that the fact that everybody can't be made happy meant that balance concerns deserved LESS developer effort... which is what you just repeated. again, duh. you wanna talk cleric? as evidence of the fact that d&d core is more balanced than you suggest, there is loads of builds with all classes that is considered powerful. monks and fighters and wizards and others... not too many bards though. is hardly a cleric monopoly on power. HA! Good Fun!

"What are you on about?" thought it were kinda clear. you started rambling on 'bout how balance efforts can't please everybody. well, either this observation simply deserves a "duh," and an acknowledgemnt of its pointlessness, or we concludes that you thinks it were a relevant observation. so we gives you benefit and take from your post some connection between developer efforts directed at balance, and lack of universal approval. *shrug* and oblivion proves nothing 'bout balance other than the fact that bethesda used a particularly blunt instrument to achieve their goal... which suggests that bethesda had less concern 'bout getting balance right as 'posed to more. again, the mechanic bethesda used were 'bout as gross as could be conceived. HA! Good Fun!

last good space sim we played? tie fighter series? crimson skies were fun, but not quite fulfilling. we puts it in the space sim category 'cause gravity ain't really much of a factor in crimson skies. HA! Good Fun!

"Anyhow, I'll make a bet. Folks will be online complaining about how NWN2 is too tough, easy, or alternatingly tough and easy." so, is the argument that if perfect balance for everybody is impossible, then balance should be less important a conern for developers. ... what a funny sorta way to look at it. wouldn't the opposite be a more reasonable way o' looking at it? the fact that perfect balance is impossible does not in any way suggest or prove a diminished need for or benefits of balancing, but it does make such things harder to achieve, thus demanding more developer effort rather than less. let us apply same reason to a different aspect of game development. is it possible to please everybody with story? ever seen universal approval of writing in a game? no? well then obviously story is less important, right? nonsense. HA! Good Fun!

"oh, and for you clowns who says balance not matter..." how is that hyperbole? you should read again maybe. 1) you s'pose that we is only speaking to/'bout you with that statement? 2) does you suggest that there is NOT people who claims that balance is unimportant? bah. "Oblivion is undoubtedly unbalanced when judging different characters, and yet even folks with weaker builds still enjoy the game and most of the complaints I've heard have centered on the writing." ... is you chanelling ss? got to the es boards, even after the negativity purges, and sees just how many peoples complain 'bout the scale resulting in their gimped characters. am not just talking 'bout people who claimed that scale system resulted in their game being inordinately easy or hard, but people who claims that they had to flush character and start over. is bad design... is bad balance, didn't happen to you? great. the fact that more people complain 'bout hackneyed writing does not change fact that there is many folks who find oblivion unplayable 'cause of scale. we does admit that there is some folks who honestly ain't bothered by lack o' balance. fact that game is tre simple is okie dokie 'cause the only reason they play the game is to gain more loot and to makes their character more powerful. as long as there is lots of eye candy and the loot and abilities get progressively more impressive as the game unfolds, these people will be perfectly content to play for 40+ hours w/o no real challenges. "By the way, I thought scaled encounters really had more to do with balancing the character to his environment." am confused... or maybe eldar is. the one thing that oblivion does achieve is that it provides for incrimental increases in challenges throught game (until you surpass the munchkin levels.) so, in what way is you noting oblivion scale relevance? regardless, the whole point of the proble with oblivion scale is that it is a blunt level system tool. game challenges is balanced not for your character or Gromnir's character, but rather to our respective levels... no matter how disproportionately powerful or underpowered we may be. am not sure how you sees as somehow a divisible issue in the present case. *shrug* good balance should go largely unnoticed. bad balance always results in some signifficant number of gamers being flaming mad. HA! Good Fun!

"The bad idea is to pretend that balance surpasses all other areas of design." gotta love people who use hyperbole. where has anybody said any such thing anywheres in this or any other thread? "Oblivion's scaled encounters, anyone?" please explain... 'cause oblivion scale system is not, in any way, shape or form, an attempt to balance various character builds. in point o' fact, the #1 problem with oblivion scale we see is that it DOESN'T achieve anything even remotely resembling balance. scaled oblivion critters makes the game incredibly hard for some and incredibly easy for others... which is pretty much the opposite o' balance. oh, sure, some folks is simply complaining 'bout oblivion scale 'cause they can't get a super powerful sword or armour at real low levels, and others is bothered they they don't feels appropriately god-like at high levels, but those folks is hardly a majority... and they don't makes the notion o' scale flawed. keeps the game challenging from start to finish is a bad thing? seems that way for some folks. "So, keep balance, but don't fool yourself. It takes more than balance to make a fun game and the ability to create a powerful character shouldn't gimp the game." ah, see this is the crux of the problem. it does indeed take more than balance to makes a fun game... but that is ino no way related to your falacious statement 'bout powerful characters. ability to makes disproportionately powerful characters (unbalanced characters,) almost invariably leads to busted games. if an available character build is too powerful compared to challenges faced, then game becomes less than fun. if a character build is too powerful compared to other character builds, then mp becomes unfun. balance can't makes a game fun... but lack of balance almost invariably kills fun. HA! Good Fun! post script btw, eddie dane were a great character in a fantastic movie... pretty much stole every scene he were in, and that is saying something considering the folks he shared screen time with in MC.

sadly, we thinks that bio were pretty much doing what you suggest. they couldn't seem to do the caster level +1, so they altered the good and evil domain powers... and they adjusted the domain spell lists... and nwn were s'posed to support all d&d campaigns, so bio chose to simply go with the core domains. am agreeing that good & evil gots somewhat pointless bonus powers, but would wotc be okie dokie with josh changing for reasons other than technical reason? we can see wotc being ok with a change that were necessitated by tech limitations, but if only reason to alter good and evil bonus powers is 'cause josh thinks they suck... weren't you down this road before with the 3e ranger? now, that being said, we will assume that josh is gonna do more than did bio... if only 'cause there is a number 2 in the game title. Sounds likes you is gonna have more than simply the core domains? "Obviously I'd ignore any domains that weren't required for the deities the game supported." so that means that deities supported in game is gonna have their domains included... at least in some fashion? ... dunno if we would wanna touch bane or mystra. they gots some wacky powerful domains, and once you put in game you somehow makes your content "official." *groan* you know, as much as we disliked bg2 deity choice for specialty priests, we thinks that we would do something similar for nwn2. allows folks to choose to play a core rules priest, and mix and mingle do-mains as they so desired, but if folks wanted to play a priest that actually gots specific deity based content, then we thinks that they should have to choose one of a handful of possibilities... possibilities likes Tempus, who gots pretty much all core domains. regardless, we would not bother trying to get any FR specific domains into the game. do the core domains spells and abilities close to da rules, but where that ain't possible, as with some travel domain spells, adjust as needed... But keeps balance in mind as you do adjust. bio couldn't get the +1 for good domain casting... so they allow for turning of fiends? Yeah, there is balance for you. oh, and for you clowns who says balance not matter... *snort* is always some joker who claims that he played a gimpy character, and it were great fun. yeah, may-be, but you know how many sucky campaigns we has played in with spineless dms that lets a couple clowns get away with power gaming? gets kinda lame when you becomes little more than the impo-tent sidekick of some ubermensch character who can kill dragons at will or lay waste to armies w/o breaking a sweat. is no longer a party, but simply the Ultimate Warrior, and the three or four other guys who gets to carry the loot. like it or not (and this is a big not from Gromnir,) nwn2 is gonna be a mp as well as a sp game, and you unleash unbalanced nonsense likes the time domain on us and we won't be thanking you... and neither will many mp players as for sp... *shrug* am not gonna get much support on this pov, but we takes the paternalistic approach to balance... 'cause most o' you peoples gots 0 self control. you will ruins your own game if you can... 'cause games is meant to be won, right? is a natural reaction to make the bestest character possible, and when you does so, and your character breezes through game in 5 hours without ever having to use a potion, then you complains 'bout how easy the game were. even though it were your fault that game were easy 'cause you exploited stoopid rules, it is the developer's fault for making it possible for you to screw up your own game... 'cause they know that even the most reasonable seeming folks 'mongst you is gonna try to makes the Best character you can, even if you is certain that doing so will makes game too easy. you people is fools when it comes to making crpg characters, and obsidian develop-ers knows it. HA! Good Fun!

Half of the 2nd Ed. FR specialty priests would wipe the floor with their 3E FR cleric counterparts, domains and all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mr. Sawyer knows his stuff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> he didn't mean it as a positive observation 'bout 2e. HA! Good Fun!

Half of the 2nd Ed. FR specialty priests would wipe the floor with their 3E FR cleric counterparts, domains and all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> am not saying that the core 3e d&d cleric domains and rules in general were w/o flaws and balance problems, but they were far more sensible than the ad&d rules, and more balanced than the 2e specialty priest kits. however, wotc can't makes more money from d&d unless they keeps making new product, and wotc has sure added lots of new product to 3e and post 3e d&d. crazy powerful new domains and some questionable divine feats and those ridiculous kits they add to every new release. kits? oh, sorry, we were meaning PrCs. am wondering if any commercial rule system can survive its own success. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking that the point is that different folks take different 'mounts of time to play these games, so some number likes 40 or 60 becomes meaningless. in any event, vis coulda' said 200 hours and his opinion would still not be more or less valid. that being said, a long computer game is, 'specially in today's world, pretty darn short. can't try to do the sub-genre thing neither to makes a point... simply compare to crpgs don't work, 'cause as we noted, crpgs, for the most part is trying to be epic... so only choosing the long ones misses the point. gotta compare to all games, just as we compares epic poems to all poems and epic movies to all movies to be establishing some sorts measure for epic size... just compare to other works that claims to be epic and then saying that only the longest ones really is epic is kinda odd reasoning, no? HA! Good Fun!