Gromnir

Disappointing paying customers hurts us more. I'd rather someone hear bad things about our game and not buy it than buy it and get angry because they feel they were misled. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> is good advice. josh sometimes gets himself in hot water for being honest. hope this ain't one of those times. shouldn't be. Gromnir will wait and hope for some positive feedback. heck, we weren't gonna buy nwn2 before the first patch were released anyways, as that becames our game purchase policy following the release of the first nwn. no doubt by then we has some goodly notion of actual gameplay hours. HA! Good Fun!

Sure, but after HoW, I can't see the point to a developer ever giving external estimates on game length. If you estimate low, you disappoint people before the game is even out. If you estimate high, you disappoint people after the game comes out. In both cases, it's complete guesswork. Obviously, given HoW and IWD2, the BIS krew (including me) proved they were incapable of accurately gauging game length. I don't think Obsidian is really any better in that regard. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> am agreeing with you complete. as we noted above, the HoW situation were a nightmare and we cannot thinks that you would wanna revisit that nightmare. caution seems the best approach. nevertheless, fergie already did throw out a number. the 20 hour figure is know to us fans, and in the absence of any other information it seems likely that the average potential purchaser will give fergie comments some credence... much as Gromnir and others gaves weight to bis estimates of HoW pre-release. right now all we got to go on is fergie estimates, and given that our only real leverage is our dollars... *shrug* we will hold off on making any final plans regarding nwn2 purchasing, but we knows that reviews nowadays is equally suspect insofar as guessing hours of gameplay. there is an understandable rush to be the first persons to post reviews. as such we don't know how many reviewers actually finish the games they is reviewing. the reviewer estimates 'bout hours o' gameplay may simply be guesstimates based on info gleaned from the developers. what does josh suggest Gromnir do? assume for the moment that we feels that less than 30 hours for a crpg is unacceptable. now given the fact that right now all we gots is fergie comments, what is your honest advice? should we hold off on purchase until somebody we trust plays? sounds like good advice, but that behavior hurts atari and obsidian don't it? HA! Good Fun!

Does not matter. There is no way for them to track it. Maybe less than 10% bought premuim mods but the sites that hosted user made modules\haks had no affilitaion with Bioware and therefore there is no way to know what percentage of gamers made use of custom made content. The CEP alone had more than a million downloads. It is an untrackable metric and whoever said it was whistling in the wind. Yes, they were guessing, as I am and I'd say I'm probably closer to being right. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you got more or less reason to have accurate numbers than bioware? *shrug* this is their business. we bet they has looked at the numbers real close. we might quibble 'bout how they value those numbers, but we is more likely to accept their numbers than Gromnir estimates or vol estimates or gd estimates... much as we accepted fergie's numbers that he gave for ps:t sales. we don't honestly trust fergie much farther than we thinks we could throw him... josh will recall the post 3e ranger/iwd2 fallout and how fergie tried to pull the Mesmer routine on the community... lost a great deal of respect for him... and his credibility went down the crapper, but we do not thinks he lies 'bout sales numbers. we disagreed with fergie 'bout his conclusions, but he tells us that total sales of ps:t is almost double the point-of-sales numebrs we post and we believed him... and that were a situation wherein he had reason to fib. just as we thinks it is reasonable for an average purchaser to believes fergie estimates 'bout nwn2 playing time more than Guard Dog, so to we believes bioware estimates on sp dowloads more than Guard Dog. the developers seems to have more reason and better access to relevant info. HA! Good Fun!

maybe they should wait until christmas... or later. give themselves some more time to replace some of that deleted material. HA! Good Fun!

I'll be waiting regardless... I never get a game until after the first patch is released... well excluding console games of course. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> good for you. makes you a more enlightened consumer than most. as for GD and his question 'bout whether we believe the bio numbers that put the non-oc applications at something less than 10%... am not sure, but we wonders why the biowarians would undervalue their sp download numbers. how would that benefit bioware? "How many copies did Black&White sell. How many of these where due to the name Peter Molyneux? How many gamers where dissapointed? I know alot of people who own Black&White, yet NONE like the game a bit..." b&w did not sell over 2 million copies... and regardless, you and others keep ignoring the succesful expansions that nwn spawned. if nwn were as hated as you thinks, then why were the expansions good sellers? HA! Good Fun!

"So basically you don't care what the actual player-stated length of the game is on release, you're going to base your purchase on what the head of the company (who, like me, hasn't played through the game from beginning to end) says months prior to release? " let us be fair. if we ignore fergie estimates and buy nwn2 and it turns out to be 20 hours or less, then we has wasted what little leverage we got. our must effective means to bring 'bout change is to change the way we spend our dollars. you know that. once we buy nwn2 then we gots but little ways to bring 'bout change... but 'course you know that too. fergie may be underestimating. when game release gets closer and reviews come out we will pay heed... and if the reviewers note that game is short we will feels compelled to vote with our dollars. we won't simply rely on fergie estimates, but he is the head o' obsidian and it sure not seem unreasonable for folks to believe that fergie knows what he is talking 'bout regarding an obsidian developed game. HA! Good Fun!

Where did you get that figure. Not being sarcastic, really curious. Looking at the download numbers of the Vault and Stratics and NWNPlanet, accounting for a majority of repeat customers (single users downloading more than one module) I'd have put that number much higher. Maybe as high as 35-40% . If a player downloads a single bit of content from a user made SP mod to joining a PW they have "used" the toolset even if they did not create that content. I really think more than 10% of NWN players have downloaded something. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> directly from the biowarians when they were explaining why hotu were not gonna be playable mp... and more recent when they were discussing DA... though we admits that they were playing with the numbers when discussing DA. Gromnir kept mentioning their less than 5% figures from nwn, and some developer claimed that our numbers were really off, and that something under but close to 200,000 had used player mods. at the time Gromnir were thinking that nwn had sold 1mil, and this jackarse developer did not clarify the fact that nwn had sold over 2 mil. never trust the developers. HA! Good Fun!

repost... 'cause thread is moving quick. sorry gd, but the nwnvault stuff were included in the "less than 10%" numbers from bioware. sp downloads has been played by a very small number of people compared to total purchasers. yeah, is more people playing sp downloads than is using the toolset to create pws, but the number of folks getting anything out of nwn other than oc playage is less than 10%. end repost. we likes that nwn has the sp mods, but it ain't what has sold copies. HA! Good Fun!

"Expansion probably went a long way too as those always increase gameplay value. " no matter how you spin it, the expansions is abberrational if you blame on brand name or company or mp... 'cause who the hell buys the expansion if they didn't actually enjoy the core game, regardless of d&d logo or bioware name... and as for the mp aspects selling the expansions... less than 10%. maybe some folks thought that mp would be super groovy when nwn were released, but how could they be tricked into buying the expansions? *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

If it is, I blame Atari for it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> am thinking that obsidian is discovering, much as bio discovered far too late, that a toolset and a solid sp oc for a d&d 3e game is lots of work. obsidian has decided that the appropriate corners to cut is on amount of content rather than quality. is just too bad that those corners had to be cut, 'cause no matter how some folks spin it, 20 hours or less is pretty damn short. also, we does note that when developers gives estimates of hours of gameplay for a crpg, they never is speaking solely of how fast people can rush through the critical path... never. HA! Good Fun! ps sorry gd, but the nwnvault stuff were included in the "less than 10%" numbers from bioware. sp downloads has been played by a very small number of people compared to total purchasers. yeah, is more people playing sp downloads than is using the toolset to create pws, but the number of folks getting anything out of nwn other than oc playage is less than 10%.

well, the thing is that nwn products continued to sell. that is meaningful to Gromnir. even if people claims that it were hype or the d&d name or even bg or bg2 that got people to buy nwn initially, peoples continued to buy nwn and nwn expansions for a good long time after the strengths and shortcomings o' nwn were being posted 'cross the web. beyond the first couple of months can we assume that people were still being tricked into buying nwn? the expansions did pretty good too. is it reasonable to assume that the duration of bioware's/atari's mass hypnosis lasted for years? HA! Good Fun!

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we also doubt we is gonna get an answer. however, josh were recently proclaiming his willingness to gives the fanbase hard truth. would not this be one of those situations wherein he coulds prove his mettle? "Except it's not easy to release a game engine with a kick butt toolset. I'm saying I'd rather the developers spend time on the toolset than fluffing an OC. " too bad you is in an incredibly small minority. is the biowarians themselves who has noted that less than 10% of all nwn purchasers used any mp aspects of nwn. now personally we likes that nwn had mp aspects, as it kept game playable long after the oc were forgotten, but for 90% or more of purchasers the toolset and mp features were a complete waste. explain to those 90% of nwn2 purchasers that the reason the nwn2 oc is so short is 'cause of the toolset. that is a tough sell. on the positive side, the nwn2 boards IS at the bio site. when the post-release poop hits the fan it will be at the bio site where the stink lingers. finally some good comes out of that move, eh? HA! Good Fun!

oh, and 'cause Gromnir has already enamored himself to the obsidian folks with our complaints, we feels it incumbent to ask how many levels can we expect to gets in nwn2? personally, we don't mind fast levels in crpgs and d&d crpgs in particular, but there is many who felt personally offended at being able to reach level 18 in nwn, an announced 60 hour game. soooooo... level ten in 20 hours? more or less? am curious. HA! Good Fun!

as fate would have it, we actually played fo after we played fo2. am not sure how many hours we got (seemed like more than 20 though... but keep in mind tht Gromnir got more than 40 from kotor2, and more than 20 from JE before we quit at halfway point,) but we were more than a little disappointed. no doubt fo were really revolutionary when it were first released, but for us it were a follo-up game... and a short and poorly balanced one at that. is one of the resosn we always list fo2 ahead of fo on our favorites lists. HA! Good Fun!

"BTW, shortest RPG that I have played was Fable on friends Xbox. 10+ hours." there is indeed some short console games. am no sure just how short fable were, but that is why Gromnir keeps noting that nwn2 will be shortest pc crpg we has seen since HoW. HA! Good Fun!

this kinda thing is why you people keep getting less from game developers and publishers. if you all complains 'bout game length after you buys it, then how much you thinks a publisher is gonna be motivated to makes longer games in the future? what motivation has you offered a publisher who knows that you is gonna buy any obsidian product regardless of your concerns? for chrissakes, even the obsidian developers is gonna tell you that game development and publishing is held hostage by the Quarterly Report mentality that pervades many industries... which is why so many games gets rushed to release just before the end of a quarter. the publishers know that half-baked game is gonna gets some negative feedback, but they would rather see the sales numbers on the qurterly report than they is concerned by negative feedback from fans who proves over and over again that they will buy shorter games and buggy games. btw, you do give us too much credit... but we wish that troika's death were our fault. when a company so woeful at the business of making games goes under, we all benefit. looks at obsidian. how many former troikanauts they got on staff? whatever talent troika had at making games has not been lost... those folks is still making games in other places, but the development company that mismangaed that talent is no longer wasting consumer or publisher dollars... which is how the gosh darned system is 'posed to work. this same damned issue cames up right after toee were released, and it were a buggy mess. Gromnir pointed out that if people really didn't wants buggy games from troika or atari or any other developer, then they should sends a message in dollars: don't buy games on day 1 of release. if peoples stoped buying games until first patch is released, then publishers and developers would work lots harder to gets less buggy games made... 'cause the lack o' initial sales would speaks loudly to publishers... and in spite of blank reservations, more than a few bis and bio and other developers agreed with us that such actions were the most likely to brings 'bout actual change. on-line petitions is useless, and emails is almost as bad. real letters gets some little better impact, but dollars speak loudest. lly reasoning is still absent. 'course even he is now admitting that there ain't no reason to expect that a shorter game will have less fluff, so there sure ain't no reason to expect that nwn2 will be better 'cause it is shorter than any pc crpg we can recalls since HoW. at the very least we can all agree that there is no reason to be encouraged by the reduction in hours. however, lly does takes the odd pov and suggests that length is a non-factor. strange. again, one of the main reasons why people still seems enamored with bg2 is simply 'cause of its size. no single tangential quest may have been as involved as even durlag's tower from totsc, but bg2 had many quasi-durlag quests that a player coulds pick and choose to do at their leisure... planar sphere and druids grove and windspear hills and unseeing eye and numerous others. reduce the number of those tangential side quests to 1 or 2 and ask if People (that is People with the big P rather than Gromnir or lly or vol or vis,) would honestly be 'membering bg2 with such fondness. am recalling a review for some soon to be released adventure game were posted at gamespot and linked to this board. the reviewer seemed to likes the game a great deal... but he noted that it should have been longer. all things being equal, size (up to a point,) is a positive attribute for a game, and while we not need a game to be 80 hours to enjoy, we thinks that there shoulds be some kinda minimum we is willing to accept from a pc crpg. personally, we is gonna set the basment at 'round 30 hours... 'cause we cant sees how a crpg can offers an intro, critical path, conclusion and tangential side-quests that is gonna satisfy with less than 30 hours of gameplay. ... also, while it probably ain't the case, Gromnir would not be surprised if ferret jumped ship just 'fore the real story of nwn2 gots out... got out just 'fore any of the taint could stick to him. reduce mp fetures to gives a bigger and more fulfilling sp campaign makes sense... but to reduce those features and makes a game that were half as long as the rushed kotor2 product that obsidian released only a little while ago? looks like one of those conspiracy theory things that kinda likes mushrooms grows best in darkness and bs, but... HA! Good Fun!

"Quality is key." well then, we is kinda getting somewhere... nope. subjective notions o' quality has gotta be taking a backseat to a bit o' unpleasant reality. BG2 were a big seller... and iwd were bis' best seller. what llyranor or Gromnir thinks of as well-remembered is not of much concern to anybody... but it seems obvious that those games did something right, no? on the bio boards BG2 is still held up as the measuring stick 'gainst which all other games is measured... in spite of fact that another bg2 is improbable nowadays given the costs of game development. regardless, your hypothesis that games will get better as they get shorter has not played out so far, and so we still cannot sees where you is finding any optimism in the realization that nwn2 will be shorter than any pc crpg in recent memory. you personally hates "fluff" and you has noted that games always gots fluff and that length not make better. fine. you can play a five hour game and be really satisfied... goodie for you... but such a recognition does not in anyway change what should be an obvious realization: that a decrease in game hours does not in any way increase the likelihood of a game having your "quality" requirement. at the opposite end of the spectrum, a game likes oblivion shows that simply having lots of content IS a selling point for many. lone wolf were the one who told us that he enjoyed playing oblivion, in part, simply to see all the neato scenery. get more loot and do more quests... extend the time playing in a gameworld one likes... clearly these things makes a game memorable to many. "It's not a matter of "we didn't bitch enough, so they did it anyway" it's costs and what can be done within a certain amount of time and with a certain amount of cash. It's not like these guys aren't trying their damndest to give us a strong product...I mean, it's a reflection of themselves...so why not make it the best as can be?" how does unbridled optimism make it "the best as can be?" and yeah, a little more b*&^%$#@ & moaning may help. such things coupled with bad sales is exactly the reason we got Trials of the Luremaster after the HoW debacle... though we never actually played it. "How does directy attacking the developer help?" it probaly doesn't... but we did not suggest such a thing. please go back and review our advice. in any event, telling the developers that a 20 hour game is okie dokie with you when you actually want a longer game sure as hell ain't gonna help. 'course, as we keeps pointing out over and over again, more important than vocal criticism is your purchasing behavior. "I disagree with the notion that games have gotten shorter and shorter." okie dokie HA! Good Fun!

The only non-jokey figures I'll give about game length prior to release will be based on my own experience. I haven't played through NWN2 legitimately from start to finish, so I won't give any estimation at all, nor comment on the veracity of Feargus' estimation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not after the nightmare that were HoW you won't. "Oh, but heeding Grom's advice... U HAD BETT@R MAKE THE BEST GAME EVA! OR I WILL NEVER BUY ONE OF YO GAMES UH-GEN!11! IT HAS TO BE REAL GOOD, LIKE THE COOLZEST!" good for you... but as we mentioned, your actions will be speaking much louder. sarcasm on the boards mean far less then actual sales... so if you really want games longer than 20 hours, then don't buy the game if you really wanna heed our advice. HA! Good Fun!

bg2 is largely memorable 'cause there was so much to do. hypothetical: cut bg2 down to 20 hours worth o' gameplay. takes the best 2 or 3 quests from bg2 and then add ins a necessary intro and conclusion. then consider if it would be well remebered. iwd were how long? 40 hours. cut in half so that we just finishes dragon's eye... imagine that empty feeling as you wonder why in the hell you paid $40 bucks for THAT. a crpg w/o side-quests is more of an adventure game than anything else, and we has a hard time considering the kinda game that has an intro with a tutorial, a compelling main story/critical path quest, conclusion & more than a small handful of tangential sidequests at 20 hours. HA! Good Fun!

... "ALWAYS" again we comes back to your word. 120 hour games. 80 hour games. 60 hours... 40... now 20? "ALWAYS." games has gotten shorter and shorter and they still gots your fluff. you noticed any improvement as they gets shorter? if nwn2 has fluff will your reasoning then require a reduction to 10? bah. HA! Good Fun!

"Then again, I don't remember any of the CRPGs have '40-60 hrs' worth of story, or having so much memorable gameplay to fill up that much time." not really the point is it? you already noted that crpgs "ALWAYS" has fluff. "always" were your word, not Gromnirs. you have played 40-60 hour games (fluff included,) that you did like, no? you must have, otherwise, by your own logic, you wouldn't likes any crpgs. nwn2 will be half as long as those 40 hour games with the fluff... but you got no reason to believe that the fluff has sudden vanished... so why the optimism? somebody tells you that you is getting a 20 hour game, and your response is that you didn't want no 60 hour fluff-filled game anyway? if the problem is fluff, then how does the reduction to 1/3 your noted measuring time length improves the situation? ... is some damned bad reasoning. HA! Good Fun!

What are you talking about? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> we think that it were that Tom Cruise movie... Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee : I think I'm entitled to them. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth! Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to! Kaffee: Did you order the code red? Jessep: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do. Kaffee: Did you order the code red? Jessep: You're goddamn right I did!! we think that is what he is talking 'bout... though we disagree. HA! Good Fun!

"There've ALWAYS been sections (sometimes quite large ones, too) I didn't enjoy in all CRPGs I've played," and in spite of the fact that you "ALWAYS" has seen such stuff in the past you is gonna somehow imagine that nwn2 manages to cut all that stuff out... especially as it is a D&D game which is, first and foremost, a squad-based tactical combat game. there pretty much has to be some meaningless combats if only to prepare you for the tougher ones latter on in the game. you have some rather strong evidence that game is shorter than 40 hours... by upwards of 20 hours. you got any such similar reasons to believe that obsidian has managed to revolutionize crpgs and d&d so that you not got no fluff no more? sorry, but your reasoning seems suspect. HA! Good Fun!

josh tends to be more honest than the average developer mouthpiece. it has been noted that josh may not be the most diplomatic developer, but we would prefer to hear more news from that old crank than we is to hear the deafening silence of chrisA and others. HA! Good Fun!