Gromnir

is a poof detection device. you cannot imagine just how many people before you has tried to do the mockery through mimicry thing. congrats. so, why not share with us your list o' interesting characters from oblivion. is a huge game so there should no doubt have been a few opportunities for some characters worthy of noting... characters that gives you your apparent hope for da future. as we said, we didn't finish, so perhaps we missed the good stuff that they no doubt saved for the last 2/3 of game. we can points to characters from all kinds of crpgs that we has not played in many years as being examples of intriguing characters, but the game we only were playing last week we cannot recollect a single beastie or personage we would hold up as the kinda character we would like to see more of in a future game... which is very odd for a crpg, 'cause story being advanced through character development is kinda a traditional approach for such games. heck, even crpgs we don't like almost always gets one or two characters right. llyranor mentions nwn as an example of a game where the story underwhelmed, but we can names bunches o' characters from that game that were good in spite terrible Revenge of the Evil Mutant Lizards thing they had going on in that game. we won't ridicule your choices... honest. but if you thought patrick stewart or the grave robber or mythic dawn acolyte #305 were an interesting character then we can simply recognize and accept that your notions of "interesting" is a little different from Gromnir's. no harm done. HA! Good Fun!

I wonder if it's just that 'they suck' at making interesting characters, or that with ES there are simply too many to give any real attention to. Hence why I wonder what they can do with a smaller game like Fallout with MUCH fewer NPCs. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the thing is that in the last couple games by bethesda we gots pretty much 0 evidence that they can write good dialogues and create interesting characters. we concede that with really big games likes morrowind and oblivion the chances are that you is not gonna be able to makes all of your characters compelling, but is that an excuse for making none of them intriguing? we don't think so. honestly consider your argument. Gromnir is 'posed to consider that 'cause we ain't never seen no good characters from bethesda we has reason to hope/believe that they could populate a future game with such characters. ... sounds like you is asking for a leap of faith. *shrug* we save our faith for things like God and love and Notre Dame Football. bethesda not yet merit such sacrifice. HA! Good Fun!

"so I guess some games do quite well without great and memorable characters." is no doubt about that. diablo is a good example. is all 'bout the addictive gameplay, right? diablo were 'bout as succesful as a pc game could be getting at the time. 'course, Gromnir never really liked diablo. we got tired of playing pac-man in the early 80s, but blizzard brought it back for us in the 90s... run 'round a maze, occasionally powering up... not much of a story 'less you imagine one. *shrug* regardless, pac-man and diablo were very popular games... no question 'bout that. very good games... just not our cup' o' kool-aid. HA! Good Fun!

we thinks you take the "memorable" aspect too literal. memorable carries with it an element o' being worthy of remembrance... is a qualitative aspect. this is why we phrased our query thusly: "for those who has played oblivion all the way through, will any of the oblivion characters makes your personal Best NPC Ever list?" for instance, we will have a hard time forgetting the terrible dialogue that patrick stewart had to vomit forth with his character, but he sure as heck not gonna make our list o' favorite npcs any time soon. HA! Good Fun!

If they use the same engine as Oblivion, true to SPECIAL rules and setting. Oh hell yeah! I would love to see a screaming alpha burn and die dancing in the graphical detail of Oblivion. Or setting the timer of a nuclear bomb, then bravely running away over the hills and through the city and watch from a affar a blossoming mushroom cloud. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> oblivion is already havng a little too much of a fps pov for us to want to see the engine repeated for fo3. we want a party and we wants a little more opportunity for tactical sophistication... neither which seems particularly well suited for oblivion engine. again, the thing that bothered us mostest 'bout oblivion is the fact that after reaching level 13 and having played more than a dozen hours, we had not met one honestly memorable character... which for Gromnir is an unforgivable flaw in a crpg. the quests were better in oblivion than in morrowind, but nothing particularly noteworthy. even so, if we had met some intriguing characters we mighta' stuck it out for the long haul. but perhaps we did not give the game a fair chance. for those who has played oblivion all the way through, will any of the oblivion characters makes your personal Best NPC Ever list? HA! Good Fun!

No. Trust me, I have closed enough gates to know that there are no acrobatics skills needed to close them down. The route to the main tower is not always obvious, but it's always possible to walk (without any other skills than walking skills) to the Sigil stone. I guess you didn't have the patience for it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> there were a cave that might have led somewheres. poked 'round a bit, but every time we tried to re-enter we got a ctd. in fact, we had to save every attempt we made at taking a sigil stone, 'cause that would typically result in a ctd. not a big deal, but were kinda an irritating lesson to learn: always save 'fore taking a sigil stone. also, is Gromnir the only person that almost never were able to close oblivion proper? would almost always get some kinda error message... and we ain't being hyperbolic. am talking like +90% of close attempts resulted in error. weren't no big deal as we were exiting the program after saves, but were kinda odd. HA! Good Fun!

... there is always those folks that lose the forest for the trees. ss is one of those. you admit that the goal of traditional crpg level schemes is not realism, but you quibble at notion that th0se developers did such a thing purposefully. ... wacky. "If you want to say "bows made of iron makes no sense and isn't realistic," I'd agree. However, the implementation of horses isn't really unrealistic, as much as it is just plain flawed." 'cause it couldn't be flawed & unrealistic. again, the quibble over whether it is MORE unrealistic than flawed or vice versa is just plain idiotic. is flawed and unrealistic and you trying to play with the < or > crap is just nuts. HA! Good Fun!

can't keep trying to have it both ways. if being incrementaly more realistic is worth noting in level system, then surely the complete disregard and distracting lack o' realism of other aspects o' oblivion should also be noteworthy, no? again, the funny thing 'bout your realism comments is the admission that the traditional rpgs you is comparing oblivion to purposefully eschew realism as far as levelling goes. and if some people like sl is happy with horses regardless of their near total absence of practical usefulness n' such, then so be it... but 'least be honest 'bout it. try to convinv anybody that oblivion horsies add anything more than some limited and fuzzy "immersion" value is nutty. HA! Good Fun!

we knew that ferret were gone, but am surprised that josh is now the lead. ferret may not have been quite at the emberassing man-love stage with his appreciation for wotc, but it were a close thing. josh, on the other hand, has documented issues with wotc... we surmise that he would probably prefer to rubs broken glass shards into his own eyeballs rather than be having to deal with wotc from a relative position of weakness such as he is in as the lead designer of a d&d crpg. am recalling a case we had some time ago, and a client we couldn't stand. the guy were a racist and a misogynist. he accepted Gromnir with some difficulty, but we suspect that were only 'cause he could see that we were not the least bit intimidated by him. nevertheless, the guy bothered Gromnir something fierce, so we made sure that most all communications with the client were handled by a very able junior associate... a very able black and female junior associate. drove the guy nuts. ... maybe fergie is doing the same thing. HA! Good Fun!

came across a gate shortly before we quit oblivion. decided to try and close the gate... but we had a problem. to get to the tower with the sigil stone Gromnir would either need: 1) ridiculous acrobatics skillz to be leaping 'cross a broken bridge span. or 2) complete immunity to heat/fire as we would otherwise need to cross some 70' of lava to get to tower. lost patience.. then shortly thereafter we simply lost interest in playing game. sidenote: we did discover that water walking allows one to walk on lava... but you still gets burned. HA! Good Fun!

... what is the point of the horses anyways? got insta-travel, right? while doing some map mowing west of chorrol, we comes across a strange scene... dead guy, horse, bandit and lion. am not sure how the dead guy ended up dead, but the horse were mauling the bandit, and the lion seemed to be savaging the bandit and the horse. so, Gromnir decides to intervenes and dispatches the lion and the bandit both... then loot the corpses. figure that an opportunity has presented self, so we takes the horsie for a short jaunt. were curious 'bout the whole horse thing, but not curious 'nuff to buy a horse. lame. ditch the horse. ... 2 days later we talks to some city guard in an attempt to get directions... the guard informs Gromnir that we is under arrest for our terrible act o' thievery that we did some substantial distace away, and he totes us off to prison and we pays some hefty fine. whenever ss starts telling us 'bout oblivion realism we just wanna pop him in the grill. HA! Good Fun!

we got dual citizenship. we hate the USA 'cause we sees so many Americans, having never lived for any length o' time in another country, is so willing to accept the foreigner and media spin that insists that the USA is a terribly racist and oppressive regime... compared to the friendly and enlightend nations o' europe. bah. we hates the land of our birth 'cause Gromnir's peoples has fully embraced a culture of defeat. we is incapable of doing little more than complain 'bout the raw deal we gots... though we occasionally lash out over some stoopid minor issue 'stead of trying to deal with education, infrastructure and health care issues. HA! Good Fun!

*sigh* making magic weapons is neither intuitive nor explained well in game... and as shadow paladin has pointed out, it depends on luck or pre-knowledge of mage guilds and sigil stones and particular reusable soul gems to makes useable... which is that whole metagamy thing you were complaining 'bout. sorry chum, but you just don't get it. whether you thinks people is being stoopid or unreasonable is pointless. you ain't gonna make it as a developer with that attitude. you takes your audience as you find 'em, and you develop games for 'em. you make game so that a signifficant % of people don't get magic item creation, and magic item creation is necessary, then you has failed as a developer... period. however, this should be obvious, and you has not seemed particularly dumb in past, so we assume your inability to grasp simple stuff is loyalty based... give you benefit of doubt. HA! Good Fun!

"thats pretty much expecting everyone to join the mages guild. Or raid countless gates in hopes of getting a good strone ? blink.gif blink.gif" Yeah, great design, ss claims he ain't defending bethesda out of misplaced loyalty, but he is really not being even remotely reasonable. Is no bad combat builds... In spite of the threads that has been purg-ed at tes observing the contrary. Oblivion is LESS metagamy in spite of the numerous folks claiming the opposite... Even folks who like. Even so, bad level scheme does not make this game unplayable. As meta and others note, you can, if game becomes too tough, simply stop leveling. HA! But honestly, the level scheme ain't what made Gromnir quit. We simply got bored. Dialogue were too bad, and quests, while improved over morrowind, were often more than a little screwed. The find-the-painting quest were just one example. We found the painting and paint on the rug and the paint supplies, but 'cause we found those things 'fore we spoke with every named person in the castle those clue acquisitions didn't count towards quest fulfillment. Huh? But we coulda' dealt with all those things if not for the fact that combat were so damned boring. Very little sophistication or savvy required. Nevertheless, we can see why some folks really like... We is just noting that pretending that oblivion's level scheme ain't unbalanced and irrational and metagamy is a fanciful delusion or the result of having not played enough types o' oblivion characters. Fans get the free pass as chances are they only play-ed their own build, but ss, as a developer type, not got such an excuse. HA! Good Fun!

This is how the loot table works without luck. Armor PC Level Fur / Iron 1 Leather / Steel 3 Chain / Dwarven 6 Mithril / Orcish 10 Elven / Ebony 15 Glass / Daedric 20 Everytime a creature is spawned, it checks your level, and checks your luck. Once in awhile you'll get special drops. The higher your luck, the more likely you are to recieve a special drop. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> am not sure why you is being so obtuse in various oblivion threads. the 1007 tables is modified by luck, but clearly elven weapons is part of the 1007 tables for characters of less than 15th level. your initial statement were if not completely incaccurate, then more than a little misleading. *shrug* regardless it is nice to see hiw the unmodified 1007 tables is initially set up. thanks. HA! Good Fun!

off-topic: we always use 1337 for 10075 on this board. reason is silly. used once in a post over a year ago and it seemed to shock a few folks that Gromnir would utilize 1337. thought that were funny. HA! Good Fun!

ss contradicts self. "So long as you don't make a bunch of non-combat skills your majors you should be fine." as you note in your conclusion, skills do not increase at a proportional rate. is not simply a problem if a person has non-combat skills... can (as you seem well aware) be a problem if they has the wrong combat skills. alsp, the combat skills is hardly balanced... not even close to being balanced. as we said, ss ain't trying to be reasonable as much as he is trying to defend. "So? Giving players the option to continue playing after they've done everything is a bad thing, now? Yes, the option to go back and clear out Vilverin a dozen times is there, but you're not forced to. Where is the problem?" problem? is not a problem unless you is arguing that oblivion ain't metagamy... which it clearly is. and clearing out the same area multiple times is not always a matter o' choice. is how many different caves in oblivion? they all pretty much look the same. playing after you is done with game ain't a big thrill for Gromnir, but some people like. even so, such a fuction typically allows you to go back and finish up stuff you didn't do while finishing critical path... rarely does it mean that a person should be able to simply replay the same (already completed areas) over and over and over. "My warrior can cast the lowest level protection spell (given right after making your class) while decked out in Umbra's armor and go toe to toe with 3 Clanfears, at level 15. Only spells I use are a 25 point healing spell and said protection spell. Granted, my sword drains magicka with every hit (thanks sigil stone )." am not sure what your exapmple proves... other than that the 1007 makes the man... and if you ain't lucky 'nuff to come cross the right 1007 for your character build? sorry ss, you really ain't being reasonable. HA! Good Fun!

1=l 0=o 7=t 5=s 1007=loot 10075=loots ph47 10075 for everybody. HA! Good Fun!

well, no, it doesn't. it works... sometimes, but rarely does it work well. typicallly if we wann move a body we gotta grabs an arm or leg and makes 'bout a dozen yanks (z-button activations) to get a body to moves less than 6 inches. is better than nothing, but it don't work well. btw, if elven weapons is not on random 1007 drops previous to level 15, then how does luck factor into the equation? sounds like elven weapons are pre-level 15... they is simply more rare. annecdotal evidence: we stopped playing at level 13, and we had seen quite a number of elven weapons... not many swords, but quite a few battle axes and hammers and a couple of bows. HA! Good Fun!

"People are claiming that the system is meta-gamey, when it is much less so than a traditional RPG. In traditional RPGs people go around and do every quest, even if their character would not. In Oblivion, the compulsion to do this is signifigantly reduced, because helping grannie only gives you a few gold and not 300 XP." *chuckle* has you actually played this game? 1st of all, since being "more realistic" is a big seeling point for ss, which would you say is more realistic: scaling or fixed level encounters? if "more realistic" is a good thing, then we suspect that scaling disturbs the hell out of ss. 2nd, it is appearing that ss doesn't know how oblivion works. does oblivion encourage exp & 1007 milling? sure it does... more so than any game we has played in a long, long time. the difference is that oblivion discourages leveling. again, we don't think ss knows how oblivion works. bob is getting his arse handed to him. seems like every battle is too tough. how does bob fix? he goes out into the wilderness and fights critters with his weaker skills, or he boosts the hell out of his uber skills and simply does not level. see, the thing ss keeps forgetting is that by now bob realizes that leveling ain't what makes his player tough. getting 1007 and raising skills is what makes his player tough. leveling is what makes his FOES/ENCOUNTERS tough. bob will mill the 10075 and exp likes crazy in oblivion... he simply will not choose to level until he feels like he can handle it... which is 'bout as meta-gamey as you can get. let us revisit bob. when bob first goes to cave X and fights some bandits with magical 1007, he must reload likes a dozen times to make it through the cave, but now bob gots a very nice sword or curiass or whatever. the wonderfully stoopid thing 'bout oblivion (as far as metagaming goes) is that bob knows that he can come backs to this cave a short time later and it will be repopulated with new critters and 1007... can pillage the same 1007 sources ad nauseum if he wishes... but the second time 'round he will has better skills and 10075, so cave will be a breeze. *shrug* if ss thinks he is being reasonable he is kidding self. 'course for the hundredth time, scale is not the issue so much as is the leveling scheme. is nothing wrong with scale.... and we disagrees with josh on this. rats in a maze. w/o an intelligent scale scheme you can ends up feeling like a rat in a maze. sure, there may not be any actual walls forcing you down a particular path in a crpg sans scale, but if the encounters is set for a particular level then you gots functional walls. there will be a desire from some folks to use hyperbole to bash scale... or they may simply point to the silliness of oblivion. we ask that you restrain selves. scale not have to be oblivion scale. get through fallout's Den at first level? yeah, such a thing is bad. however, having the Den encounters scale up or down in a range with a set basement would be bad in what way? intelligent scale coupled with a character development and leveling scheme that ain't as retarded as oblivion could be a very good thing. HA! Good Fun!

It isn't splitting hairs. The ES leveling system is closer to reality than a traditional RPG, but isn't realistic. No, traditional systems aren't supposed to mirror reality, what traditional leveling systems try to accomplish is a sort of epiphany moment. Suddenly your character's experience has come to fruition. "Level up" is supposed to represent a moment in time whare your character realizes something that makes them better. Movies and books do this too, except in movies it isn't inexplicable, it is triggered by something specific. In RPGs, it is triggered by delivering grannie her groceries. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> so you recognize that most games not try for realism with levels... and you note that oblivion ain't realistic... not even colse. nevertheless, you feels compelled to note that oblivion is more realistic than other crpgs. ... but you ain't a hair splitter neither. ... am realizing that you work for bethesda now, but we thinks you is trying too hard to defend. as for josh comments, we is again struck by how bethesda appraoach just seemed... lazy. what would it take to put a cap on some areas and a basement on others? want arena to be tougher? makes it so that the arena starts scaling at 'bout 10th level. problem solved, no? arena could be a tougher challenge for somebody who were 20th level, but it would insane difficut for anybody under 10th. however, am not sure that the fo games is best example with which to compare. get higher fo level and you can't seems to have a random encounter w/o it being 'gainst enemies wielding miniguns and gauss rifles and plasma rifles. for the people complaining 'bout the insane high level 1007 drops, fo games may be one of the models the bethesda folks were eyeing when they came up with their rather blunt scaling system. HA! Good Fun!

*chuckle* split hairs maybe? level scheme for most games is not attempting to mirror reality, so oblivion accomplishment is kinda suspect, eh? HA! Good Fun!

roshan is 'bout 12 or 13, right? musta' meant he started gaming at 5. impressive. HA! Good Fun!

king kong (1933) raging bull spartacus on the waterfront dr. strangelove high noon fight club citizen cane the godfather ii ran off the top of our noggin and the list is subject to change w/o notice. btw, why would anybody ever says "das boat"? the boat? maybe. das boot? sure. das boat? great film in any event. a little too much german opera at end, but other than that it is a definite fixture in Gromnir's top 20. HA! Good Fun!

Context-sensitive vertical drop-down menus. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> examples please. HA! Good Fun!