Gromnir

you know, Gromnir has never been able to decide if josh is any good at the craft of making games. circumstances has surely conspired 'gainst him, but is still hard to say much 'bout his design skills so far. his portions o' iwd were ok, but not our favorites... but that were his first game. HoW? we gave him some serious heat over HoW, but sounds like fergie hamstrung HoW development from day 1. iwd2? never finished, but again, what fergie wanted from iwd2 were simply to get a product out the door... am recalling that josh had a single day to come up with basic story. BG3? FO3? josh may have some good managerial skills... we assume so if fergie brings him in to try and gets nwn2 out by september, but is a shame we never has ever gotten a chance to see what josh could do with actual game design... and circumstances that not seem stacked 'gainst him. HA! Good Fun!

Sucks to be you then Play time is play time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well, we think that it is worth noting that replays is rarely as fulfilling as first plays... is not simply that play time is play time. first time we encountered ravel and her triumverate of guises, we were honestly moved... were shocked that such a fantastic character could get worked into a crpg. second time were still okie dokie, and so were third, but never is it like #1. see, that is the problem with the notion o' replay value. is not likes you honestly is playing a whole different or new game when you replay most games. is not that the second 20 hours is gonna be near as good as the first 20... and that is assuming that the first 20 is good... which given the substantial cuts that has had to be made recently sounds kinda iffy. HA! Good Fun!

that is the only rational thing you has said so far in this thread. congrats. HA! GoodFun!

As a potential customer I can say one thing, 20 hour game isn't worth $50. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you and vol has accounted for probably a third of all the posts we can recall that we simply discount as too ridiculous to have been constructed by sane people. in that regard we must thanks the both of you, as you has helped convince Gromnir to stay away from recreational drugs. that being said, vol is temporary inching ahead of vis on the Gromnir WACKOMETER 2006 scale. the suggestion that asking fergie for clarification 'bout gameplay hours constitutes arrogance on our part is something we finds... baffling. am not thinking that we could gets vol to name another product or service for which Gromnir questioning the makers/providers 'bout qualitative or quantities aspects would constitute proof of arrogance... or even evidence of unreasonableness. ... am taking that back. is some cults and fringe religions that gets real twitchy when you ask'em where the money is going

Well if you are going to do some chopping it's best done in the middle where it's less noticable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> with kotor2 we knows that lucas moved up the release date by a full fiscal quarter. nwn2, on the other hand... am having far less sympathy for obsidian this time 'round. sounds like there were some bad planning involved and now they gotta scramble and scrape to try and reworks things so they not end up with a troika kinda product come september. no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy... and the enemy for obsidian is time. am getting that no 'mount of planning coulda' saved them from having to make adjustments... but this is sounding like substantial adjustments... right after ferret leaves. HA! Good Fun!

true... and we thinks deg is coming in with some missing info. now the theoretical game that would have been 40 hours but were reduced to 20 to give 2x as much gameplay value is an interesting theoretical question (though he is wrong,) but the game and situation that inspires this and other recent threads is not theoretical... is nwn2. the reality is that nwn2 had X number of areas and Y content planned for release.... but josh informs us that X and Y values both had to be REDUCED so that quality of game could be maintained while still being able to reach target release date. were no magic distillation process... were some unpleasant butchers work, trimming away what they coulds to maintain integrity of game. josh ain't sure that game is as ittle as 20 hours... but we ain't talking 'bout girth as 'posed to length type arguments. is simply less nwn2 than there were but a short time ago. HA! Good Fun!

regardless, it takes somebody only 5 minutes to tell us if fergie did say 20 hours to germans, and what he meant by it. is no different for Gromnir than if we were buying those steak knives... got simple kinda questions that seem reasonable from consumer pov. HA! Good Fun!

2 choices is easy... and it not results in half gameplay time. typical is it you see your meaningful choices where? you likes to bring up fo. such choices occur at end of game, or at end of an optional and tangential side-quest. why? 'cause you not have no bifurcation issues. your non-linearity is an illusion, and it only seems possible w/o addition of playable content. HA! good Fun!

It's a hypothetical, Gromnir, used originally in an attempt to both clarify various stances on the debate, and in an attempt to get you to answer whether or not replayability is an accurate measure or substitute for arbitrary, linear length. Quit being obtuse. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> lord knows we ain't being the obtuse person here... am actually trying to be very patient with you. the bifircation issues (not literal infinite, but that is title it gets,) is real and makes your suggestion highly impractical... and functional impossible. you won't listen to Gromnir explain, so we suggest getting a biowarian or obsidian (likes chrisA if he ever dcides to discuss this issue on boards rather than in interviews,) to go into why it is not possible. non-linearity is an illusion... 'specially if you thinks that story is important. you can fakes it by having optional tangential side-quests, but those adds additional gameplay time. HA! Good Fun!

Then we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm not speaking of a hypothetical NWN2 single-player campaign that consists of 20 hours and withholds content, such as quests, NPCs, or items, until you've beaten it multiple times. What I was hypothesizing was a campaign where *every* choice led to a different branch, to the point that it is *impossible* to get all the content in one game, as the game is different (perhaps not radically, but enough to make each play-through feel different) each time you play it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> go talks to the developers and ask 'em 'bout the infinite bifurcation myth. HA! Good Fun!

Yes. Dungeon Siege II tried that manipulation tactic. In DSII, players had access to more party members on the second and third play-through. Royally ticked me off. I paid my money... I don't want to be forced to trudge through the same game 2-3 times to get all the content I've paid for. If I choose to play a game more than once it's because I enjoyed the game enough to do so, not because the developer withheld content from me in an attempt to force me to do so. That tactic always annoys hell out of me, and makes me cross the developers who pull it off my future 'buy' list. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *sigh* Di, don't take this the wrong way (you should know that I'm not being spiteful), but I'd like to ask you a question: How many time have you played through Planescape: Torment, choosing slightly different options each time through (as it is extremely difficult to do the exact same thing each time)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you ain't pretending that we counts each additiona play through of ps:t counts as a new running of clock on hours of unique and different gameplay, is you? ... now that is strange. trying too hard to make a point. bg2 is an example of what we thinks deg is talking 'bout... and no, we ain't suggesting you needs 80-100 hours to pull off, but as we brought up moments ago, the stronghold quests, while unique to a particular character type, were existing in same areas and locales as basic critical path and tangential side-quests... the problem is that those quests still take lots of time and effort to create. biowarians were asked why they has not returned to this kinda approach... ahy they has in fact gone the opposite direction and tried to allow any character type to be able to access as much of game as possible on first playthrough and there answers make some sense: additional content is expensive to make... wanna give people as much of it as possible 'cause most people only play through games once anyway. so you honestly thinks the obsidian folks is gonna create 60 or 80 hours of content and then hide it in a 20 hour game? *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

Gameplay can be increased without adding hours in a linear fashion. Suppose that NWN2 only has 20 hours of gameplay on the first play-through, but each subsequent play-through, due to different consequences, choices, and dialogue options, offers an additional 20 hours of gameplay. Would that, then, be bad? The single-player campaign would still only offer the 20 hours that are attributed to Feargus, but would include multiple, different 20 hours in replays. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> give us an example. we has always heard 'bout these games using current graphics that coulds multiply quality gameplay hours using the exact same areas and models 'n such, but we ain't never seen nobody pull off, has you? again, takes charwood... 'cause length not matter, right? give different dialogue options and outcomes is what made charwood a goodly nwn quest. now somehow adds more quality dialogues that results in double gameplay time. the additional dialogues and different outcomes in charwood as they currently exist adds how much genuine additional time of game play? you people want a good story... good story fits into your notion of quality... but you want the dvelopers to create an area so elastic that simply change dialogue options results in doubling of gameplay? don't be silly. the dialogues may take loads of time to write, but they not take that much time to read anyways. you ain't fuctionally doubling gameplay hours simply 'cause you play 2x to get a couple different dialogue options. if that were the case then bio coulda' claimed that bg2 had a thousand hours of gameplay... gotta play each different character type to get each different stronghold. HA! Good Fun!

"When you think about it, for a good majority out there, the new engine and revamped toolset is worth $50 alone. " we has thought 'bout it. bio and interplay thought 'bout it and changed their minds a couple times as they made nwn. the only clear answer we got is that you is complete wrong... 'cause if nwn is any indication, a "good majority" of nwn2 purchasers will never use any aspect of nwn2 other than the sp oc. the overwhelming majority of 2million+ nwn1 purchasers never used anything other than the sp oc... and that is a conclusion admitted to by the biowarians on more than one occasion. why is you thinking that nwn2 purchasers will be different? HA! Good Fun!

see, this is the nuttyness of people. "EVEN then, that's not a fair question, since had Bioware only made a mod lasting a few hours, " you brought up hours. and we is always amazed at the folks that thinks that gameplay can be increased w/o hours. sure, throw in a few extra dialogues that not actually increase gameplay is possible, but the more developers add for you to do in a game area, the longer your gameplay time can be extended. bio used tiles and fixed character models... so what would they has added to charwood with substantially more developer hours that would not have potentially increased gameplay hours. add to 1007 table? is that the kinda thing that woulda' improved charwood w/o giving more gameplay hours? HA! Good Fun!

"True, it may be a fine line to some, but it is line nonetheless." no it ain't. is no way to get that additional gameplay w/o additional hours of gameplay. quibble over def. ignores fact/reality that gameplay hours must be increaed to gets. "Possibly, though it would need to be of much higher quality than it apparently was, as I have no memory whatsoever of it." maybe that is 'cause it were such a short portion of an otherwise forgettable sp oc. regardless, we assures you that charwood were oft mentioned by reviewers and fans as an excellent portion o' nwn, and when people were talkings 'bout nwn expansions they typically asked for more charwood. probably missed stuff...having problems reading your post... but we tried. HA! Good Fun!

if you would have been satisfied ith a $50 purchase of charwood, then we gots little room to argue with you... whether we believes you or not. "EVEN then, that's not a fair question, since had Bioware only made a mod lasting a few hours, they would have invested relatively more dev time into that alone." sure it is. you said that length not matter... but even now you is noting that charwood would be better if material were added to it. HA! Good Fun!

"Heh, I'd have preferred NWN be accompanied by a couple of short mods like Charwood than the 60-hr epic awesomeness it shipped with." too bad that ain't addressing Gromnir point. you woulda' liked a couple of short mods rather than 60 hours of nwn. fine. example were that you gets charwood... period. no other stuff and no > or < nwn. simply answer whether or not you woulda' been satisfied with charwood, a single quality crpg story and adventure, as a stand-alone purchase. if length not matter, then you not need more than just charwood, right? oh, and we happens to agree that nwn woulda' been a better product if they made a toolset and simply included one or two short modules... 'cause that were their original plan at bio. nwn were not gonna offer no substantial sp oc for the first year of its development... maybe more. substantial time into development the biowarians or the interplay folks (or both) come to realization that nwn as intended just won't work. not nuff people to play small scale d&d on-line or play sp mods... which is why they expanded the damned sp oc in the first place. would nwn have been better if it were just toolset and maybe a mod or two? sure, but bio and interplay knew that not 'nuff people would buy w/o a substantial sp oc. game players has not changed near as much as the obsidian developers suggest, not in the few short years since nwn release.... but lessons learned... not. HA! Good Fun!

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. Quality should outweigh quantity in every aspect of game design. More isn't always better; is more crap better than less crap? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> maybe this is true for deg, but not for Gromnir. again, a crpg is not simply a nice tight storytelling vehicle. given the recent example of oblivion we is unsure why so few people is getting that. eldar, for example, admits that the storytelling in oblivion was pretty pedestrian... he had to fill in the gaps with imagined content... but he enjoyed oblivion. why? am recalling that he liked the darkbrotherhood stuff and the archmage quests, and he liked to simply level his character and collect 1007. 'nother example? charwood were a single tangential quest from nwn. probably took us a couple hours to complete. maybe we level 1 time. were well written and had interesting characters and it were a bright gleaming moment in the nwn experience... it could also have been very easily a self-contained and independent game lasting no more than 2 or three hours... player mod length at best. so here is the thing, for all you Qua;ity is All that Matters folks... shrinkwrap charwood as an independent product, and then be telling us if anybody would be satisfied with quality alone. people is being kinda odd with this "length doesn't matter" stuff. tell it to your girlfriend if you believes it, but we just cannot believe it is true. regardless, at this point we is as much concerned with carification as we is with the hours of gameplay in nwn2. would take somebody at obsidian less than 5 minutes to find out if fergie actually did give the germans his 20 hour figure. HA! Good Fun!

"It's the demanding or the self arrogant expecation that he will or should that gets me." it is arrogant to ask for clarification? Gromnir is real clear on what influence he gots, and what he can demand. we gots 0 individual influence and we expect almost nothing. how many times has we said in past couple of days that our only real leverage is our purchase power? we got no illusions. but you know what? as a consumer we gots the right to demand all kinds of stuff... and as a Reasonable consumer we should feels obligated to demands stuff. fergie may not wanna answer, and he ain't obligated to answer, but only the worst kinda fool simply accepts whatever he is told. buy a toaster or set of steak knives or hemorrhoid ointment... whatever. not matter what is product. if you as a purchaser gots questions 'bout the product then what kinda yutz thinks that asking those questions is arrogance. some jerk rep. of a co. refuse to answer reasonable questions about a product we wish to purchase? what kinda industry you gonna have to accept such treatment? how many steak knives will i get with your Premium set? I won't say. huh? At Henckels, we have discovered that consumers are never satisfied with our estimates about the number of knives we will include with a given set, so we make it a policy not to actually announce the number of knives we will include in our various kitchen knife packages. wait a second, are you saying that if i want to buy your Premium knife set i cannot find out what knives are included in the set unless i actually purchase a set, or speak with somebody else who has purchased a set? Exactly, and I am personally offended at the temerity you have shown by actually broaching the subject. Good day sir. oh, and fergie is using us as much as we is using these boards. is advertising space. whenever sp or llyranor or somebody else complains 'bout hype surrounding games where you think that hype gets started? one place is boards like this. obsidian and every other game developer uses boards likes these to builds hype... and good for them. is a smart practice. is cheap advertising compared to print adverts in PC Gamer or other similar sources.... but do not for a second thinks that fergie is simply doing out of the goodness of his heart. So why we ask questions?

that would be nice, but it ain't practical. crpg story is not novel writing or short story writing. got relatively fixed resources... and if it turns out that your resources not match your hopes and desires for story, which you thinks is gonna get cut or expanded? looks at nwn2 for your answer. content (possibly relevant or even integral to story,) got cut 'cause quality of game could not be maintained with september deadline looming. just write the story. bah. is not realistic... is not the way a game developer can approach. crpg story is not and cannot be organic. HA! Good Fun!

am not sure why you thinks the fallout example is different than the bio/obsidian linear+ sidequests example? 'cause of the way the maps is designed? all stories is linear... whether you wanna admit or not. you can makes some parts interchangeable, but non-linearity o' story is an illusion. the more you makes some aspects of story interchangeable, the more likely the story is gonna seems incidental to gameplay, but do not deceive self into believing the non-linear myth. optional and tangential side-quests, and their availability, is simply a method to increase the illusion o' non-linear story. regardless, am not seeing how, especially with some kinda basic intro/tutorial aspect of a game, and a coherent concluding sequence, you manages less than 30 hours of game play with a crpg. maybe makes a serial wherein nwn2 is the first 1/3 of story? yeah, we can see that. in fact, Gromnir has suggested this kinda thing in past. release a game with intent of releasing two follow up games shortly thereafter to complete the story... makes a short and incomplete 30 hour game into one bigs 90 hour game. sure. but 20 hours of crpg that ain't simply a linear lead by the nose bit of adventure gaming... HA! Good Fun!

the multiple lives thing for a boss character in ANY game feels so much like a bad arcade game scenario. is lazy design. HA! Good Fun!

besides which, donkey kong is the story of a plumber saving a princess from a giant barrel tossing ape... and that story typically ended for Gromnir in less than ten minutes. "RPGs are about making choices that effect the outcome; not merely side quests. Heck, most RPG sidequests come with the following: accept/don't accept. LOL" oh lord... vol telling us what is and ain't a crpg... HA! as bad as vis is vol sometimes. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking that there is almost no d&d dms who has not cheated at one time or another. low level d&d is too damned lethal. can't get no campaign going if characters actually die as the dice fall. low level 3e d&d is actually worse than ad&d in this regard. criticals = insta death at low levels. in a crpg, with dumb ai to control the actions of an npc rather than a living person, and with the player having benefits of reload, we gots 0 problem with NPCs being fudged. in a pnp campaign... have never had to overpower an npc. Gromnir is the gm for chrissakes and we can stack the damned odds however we want. if Gromnir really wanted to we could gurantee that no player party ever survived even a 1:1 ratio D&D cr encounter. HA! Good Fun!

there is an argument that a good story cannot be told in a crpg format in less than 30 hours. cut out all the tangential side-quests and you not really gots a crpg anymore