Gromnir

But as I said and tried to show that they didn't had decide that point when they launched their kickstarter campaign, and not even that point of time when campaign ended and as we have seen experience system is still not carved in stone. But they gave us their design goals which they aim to achieve with system that they will design with money they got, and as I already said I think that they have achieved quite well. I'm just saying, a link on their front page reading "How our vision differs (and hopefully improves upon) the Infinity Engine games", or similar would have been great. There it could have read "currently, killing enemies does not reward experience as it did in the IE games. We feel that blah blah blah." I'm certainly not saying the game (or their achievement of design goals) is a failure. am having some sympathy for those who are discovering that PoE does not match what they imagined. nevertheless, the developers has been soul-numbing clear on many issues, and the fact that they did not want kill xp in PoE was one such issue. xp mechanics has been covered in many board posts and updates. furthermore, kill xp and ad hoc xp awards is not easy to implement and balance. the discussion needed to happen two years ago. we sympathize, but looking at elerond links, and recognizing that they ain't the totality o' developer responses on this issue, Gromnir is at a loss regarding your... complaint? what more could you possibly expect from the developers? HA! Good Fun!

Was it your idea? I really think they should have given you credit, or at least acknowledged that it had been suggested before. I wasn't there for that conversation, and I'm sorry people trolled you. I can only say you are not alone in that experience. If I had my druthers, we'd have good ol' combat XP like in the IE games. But (surprisingly to me) a lot of people don't want it in the game. (I don't get it, either, but if that's what they want, then it's OK for OE to provide a compromise that gives each group of supporters some concessions.) If the fanbase were overwhelmingly in favor of combat XP, I'd be right with you in saying "not good enough". this is an argument that has lasted in fits and starts for two years. we have seen nothing posted in the past three months that is genuine new... which is part of our concern. the obsidian were actual clear 'bout what they meant... two years ago. folks fully debated two years ago. folks had polls two years ago... polls that had far more total responses than the recent versions. folks has offered many perfect options over the course of two years. folks who believe they came up with a clever angle is likely repeating something that were discussed to death a long time ago. in spite of developer clarity, there is even folks who is still getting twisted up over semantics: objective v. quest v. task or other names confuse some people. in spite of developer efforts, people is at least pretending like this is the first time they has seen such nomenclature. is amusing and sad. oh, and these same developers were seeing and hearing and responding to these same complaints Years ago when they were developing bg3 and fo3. but yeah. there is folks who is reflexive defending any developer response. is actual likely confusing to developers. check some o' the developer updates and how people responded compared to complaints the developers is getting these days. nothing has changed from two years ago or from any number o' developer updates, and typical the developers were painful clear regarding mechanics and rules issues, but is actually funny to see some folks complaining today that were acting like women at a 1960s tom jones concert. how many rage monkeys were throwing their digital panties on stage just a short time ago? a developer responds and there is a tendency to overreact. it is unfortunate for the developers, but the ecstasy some experience from basking in a developer's presence (*snort*) is short lived. HA! Good Fun!

earlier in this thread we noted that a single respec could be a boon to lazy developers. case in point: either the leadership skill description is busted or the skill itself is busted. at the moment, we have a goodly number of points invested in a skill that is half as effective as indicated, which makes it full of suck. is going to be extreme disappointing if leadership is working as intended but description is incorrect. then again, for old tyme fans o' crpgs, is a bit like fallout outdoorsman, no? the "spin the wheel" approach to game development is so 1997. HA! Good Fun!

this would be an opportune time to go on a wiki rant, but we won't do it. regardless, we will note that a quote from a wiki source means nothing. is not wiki quoting obsidian or even wiki quoting an interview. you lifted a wiki quote that were referencing PoE and cited an article by some guy named matt peckham. mr. peckham, btw, never said "spiritual" anything in his article. random and nameless wiki guy is your source. and? sadly, because so many *insert term of vile condescension here* read wiki and believe it counts as a primary source, the vile effluvium that builds and festers at wiki entries tends to spread... like an infection. we would not be surprised if your wretched wiki quote were the actual source of this horrible "spiritual successor" nonsense of which we are now constantly being reminded. and once again, the term is vague to the point o' meaninglessness. those qualities we liked in the ie games is gonna be the ones we would want replicated in a *sigh* spiritual successor. the same can be said o' you and any other fan o' the ie games. those features we disliked in the ie games would not be integral to any attempt to make a game that is an homage to the ie games with 2014 tech. Gromnir prefers turn-based and would have been quite happy to see it used in PoE. nevertheless, one o' the few specific features mentioned by obsidian in the kickstarter were that PoE would have rtwp. rtwp were not integral for Gromnir. am betting there is a dozen things we woulda' wanted in a PoE game that you and others would hate in PoE. heck, the obsidan folks mentioned that PoE would have bg style exploration, whatever the hell that really means. Gromnir were on the BG2 development boards when bg exploration were discussed and such exploration were near universal cursed by the fan base. the Co6 boards hated bg wilderness maps and wanted more level design similar to durlag's tower. your ie spiritual successor is gonna be different than many other folks' notion... and that is a good thing. nevertheless, the term is meaningless. btw, "homage" is actual a term used on the kickstarter page. HA! Good Fun!

I tend to agree. But they did claim they were making a spiritual successor to BG2. THEY NEVER CLAIMED THIS. Christ, it is like I am stuck in a freaking loop of insanity seeing the same exact posts, repeated over and over again, all having no basis in any sort of reality. So basically, regardless of EXACTLY what they said or meant, they IMPLIED and it was interpreted as a spiritual successor to the IE games. the best you can say is that the author of the wiki page INFERRED something based on a an article Not written by anybody at obsidian. and again, "spiritual successor" is ambiguous. we find it most amusing that obsidian is getting bludgeoned with something so vague. HA! Good Fun!

last image is of bubblegum alley in palo alto, ca. HA! Good Fun!

in the developer thread for barbarians and fighters, you were one of the only persons who observed that the the fighter seemed kinda like a vanilla tank. 'pon reflection, you were the lone person who made such an observation. josh explained the PoE fighter's role, and then there were much rejoicing... save for some folks who wanted to turn the thread into a balance debate. in any event, folks were recognizing, accepting and seeming pleased with the role o' the PoE fighter. what is truly amazing to us is we has seen some folks from this thread who posted in the developer update thread for fighters... and yet they act shocked that the PoE fighter does not play like a bg fighter. regardless, am agreeing that the PoE fighter is more interesting than their bg counterparts. the bb fighter is low maintenance, but we have numerous options in combat. given the role o' the PoE fighter, we don't understand the complaints... save that many folks is wanting the PoE fighter's role to be different. more than a few folks folks complaining o' boring want the PoE fighter to play like the bg fighter. HA! Good Fun!

Wrong again.. It's been stated about 1000 times why this argument is crap That's not a rebuttal. I could just as easily say that it's been stated about 2000 times why this argument is good. And neither of us would be correct, because the necessity of combat XP for game (and combat) enjoyment is a matter of PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Stop acting like your position is the only reasonable one. Combat XP is a good reward system for RPG gameplay. That doesn't mean it's the only good reward system. OE is doing something different - good for them! Let's help them succeed instead of bitching endlessly about one single feature as if the game will live or die based on its inclusion. am not certain if we agree that combat xp is a good reward system for PoE. we gotta consider the goals o' the games and the developers, no? stated goals is balance, providing diversity of character build options and simplicity. no doubt there is a way to make combat xp balanced and encourage, rather than discourage, build diversity, but doing so would take considerable effort. the effort spent on making combat xp could be spent elsewhere on any number o' different features and options. regardless, combat xp is not simple if you want balance and to encourage diversity o' character builds, sooooo... *shrug* in any event, folks is fighting over when they get their pie. the developers does reward you in PoE. they got a very good notion that X amount o' hours o' gameplay will yield Y numbers of leveling opportunities. the developers has stated that they wanted to slow leveling down compared to recent d&d crpgs, but regardless, they gots a very good notion o' how quickly people will level in theircrpg, and leveling and getting loot is the typical rewards in these games. is not that absence o' combat is failing at rewarding players, is simple that players in PoE, as it is currently designed, is getting larger and more predictable xp rewards. end result is gonna be the same whether combat were implemented or not. however, you is necessarily demanding an extra (and unnecessary) step from developers as they would need try and figure out how to provide xp totals for gameplay that would result in their current rate o' leveling. why? why make a system more complex? why make more difficult and time consuming when end result for player will be the same? elegance and simplicity is not necessary in an xp mechanic. nevertheless, particular given the limited resources available to the developers at this time, and recognizing that this same issue was beat to death two years ago, why on earth would you subvert simplicity and elegance for combat xp? 'cause folks want their pie... now? you get no argument that combat xp can work in a crpg, but given the stated goals of the developers, and the limited development time remaining, we will once again observe that if combat xp were to be implemented in PoE, the time to do so woulda' been two years ago. nietzsche would weep. this poor horse has been beaten past recognition. HA! Good Fun!

and you is getting rewarded in the current system, but some kids is demanding their pie now! they don't wanna wait. they want it NOW. they need to see that xp counter tick up at this very moment, or it don't count... or somesuch. *chuckle* and if you honestly get ego-stroked from beating a game that is meant to be beatable by any kid aged 13 or older (am being a bit conservative on the age thing), then perhaps you look at games different from us... which is fine. we like obsidian story telling, and we looks at the combat as moderate fun puzzles, but we never genuine bought into the ego stroking aspect... though we know it is a selling point, particularly for bioware games. one reason folks had a problem with ps:t and iwd is that some folks couldn't identify with tno or their iwd party. that has never been an issue for Gromnir, so perhaps we is simple wired different. that being said, while we recognize that crpg developers is frequently selling the ego-stroke, the notion that some kids can't wait a few minutes to get their pie strikes us as bordering on the insane. HA! Good Fun!

Every crap trash mob cant be a quest because then you have created the situation that the non-kill XP crowd are whining about. Its degenerative gameplay, now Ill be FORCED to kill everything, me OCD!, immurshun, people will stealth past then go back and kill, etc... I don't see what was fixed by doing this.. Just add Combat XP then adjust quests to counter weight things out so that passive quest rewards give higher bonuses to offset the killing of NPC's, then make the NPC's disappear or worth nothing.. or, you could simply leave things the way they is and you don't need have go through what even indira were admitting is a taxing process o' balancing. h Oh well if Indira admitted it then I guess it's all over.. Fact of the matter is.. I don't care how taxing it is. It would be much less taxing if they did this **** a year ago. Making good games is taxing regardless.. if making good games was easy, everyone would do it. I'm a player and I don't care how hard or long it is for them to balance a game at the end of the day. I understand it will take time, that it's hard and that it might mean delays and future patches and a longer beta.. but at the end of the day, it's their job to do it.. and it's been done before. This argument doesn't hold water for me grommy. sure it holds water. game is being released this year. *shrug* what you want is a kinda childish bit o' ego stroking, but from a practical perspective, what you want is difficult to add to a game that is already on a rather aggressive, and seemingly fixed, release schedule. eventually, you become just another karzak demanding dw for bg2 thieves, or a kid cursing out his mom demanding pie. http://consumerist.com/2014/08/06/jerk-or-genius-burger-king-customers-buys-23-apple-pies-just-so-loudmouthed-kid-cant-get-one/ *shrug* but go for it. is your time and and dignity you is spending. HA! Good Fun! ps is people still trying to sell the notion that lack of kill xp makes combat pointless? *insert patronizing eye-roll here*

It's a lot like FT, but FT had better level design for the kind of game they were trying to make. W2 is all over the place, it doesn't know if it wants to be a dungeon crawler or an adventure game fo:t were a highly underrated, squad-based, tactical combat game... right up til you started fighting robots. if wasteland 2 combat and level design were near as engaging, we would be overjoyed. wasteland 2 is kinda a frankenstein amalgam, but it can still be fun. sadly, am thinking that the game will, from a combat perspective, have far less replay depth than we woulda' hoped. is too easy to see that there is correct builds for various kinda combat characters, and combat encounters is largely meh. correct builds diminishes replay value. the seemingly tacked-on role-play aspects will be where limited replay is realized, and while the rp is indeed limited, those rp aspects may be enough to get a couple replays... even if the combat is sooooo old skoole that it suffers from alzheimers that is bordering on dementia. HA! Good Fun!

Every crap trash mob cant be a quest because then you have created the situation that the non-kill XP crowd are whining about. Its degenerative gameplay, now Ill be FORCED to kill everything, me OCD!, immurshun, people will stealth past then go back and kill, etc... I don't see what was fixed by doing this.. Just add Combat XP then adjust quests to counter weight things out so that passive quest rewards give higher bonuses to offset the killing of NPC's, then make the NPC's disappear or worth nothing.. or, you could simply leave things the way they is and you don't need have go through what even indira were admitting is a taxing process o' balancing. have people complete larger objectives or quests or tasks or whatever the hell you want to call it so it don't result in childish bawling, and then give out nice and balanced xp awards that do not discriminate for or against combat... or against any other method o' completion. current method is elegant, balanced and extreme simple. add unnecessary complexity 'cause a handful o' kids need instant gratification from every bug killed or every lock opened is a silly-arsed approach. nevertheless, we see that obsidian is trying to throw folks a bone. give folks something illusory and maybe they will be satisfied. we will observe that such a approach has worked in the past. am guessing it were worth a shot. HA! Good Fun!

that's old skoole, baby! we got no idea if that feature is still in the game. we won't know til we manage to reach at least post level 30 material, and that is what makes wasteland 2 fun, right? regardless, the developers did raise rose's int to 10. did developers raise rose's brain wattage to make sure that surgeon skill would be fully expandable with the odd surgeon skill ceiling for intelligence? equally plausible is inxile raised intelligence of the med npc because you need a 10 int to fully develop the med skills to a meaningful level. maybe the developers, to alleviate boredom, had office hamster races to set joinable npc abilities and skills. hamster #10 won when the rodents were running for rose's intelligence? makes as much sense as some wasteland 2 choices. HA! Good Fun!

again, that arguable cheat is only possible because of d&d cr, and we never had to "slog through 20 hardened fire trolls and get 0 xp," so am not certain if you is being hyperbolic or if you played a different iwd2 than Gromnir... or perhaps intentional or accidental availed yourself of other exploits earlier in the game. regardless, iwd2 problems you identify is related to d&d cr, which PoE doesn't have. HA! Good Fun!

as we noted, cr resulting in 0 xp from kills would be exacerbated by a smaller party, but for particular monsters it could happen in iwd2 as bis were clear more interested in developing challenging and fun encounters than they were in making certain that every bugbear kill resulted in an xp gain for a party. perhaps ironically, bis coulda' used quest xp to fill-in any potential shortfalls due to following d&d cr. that being said, am not certain what xp related exploits you refer to. there weren't a great deal of tangential material in iwd2-- you were kinda on rails as far as encounters were concerned. a game such as bg were far more subject to xp exploits. HA! Good Fun! edit: am seeing you responded 2x, but we responded to the embedded material from your first response. this may result in confusion.

the beta, at the time we played it, did not reveal what were an effective end-game basement level for medical skills. we were stuck in arizona, so an answer based on experience would not be enlightening. However, player feedback of the beta did note that the joinable med skills npc obtainable at the ag center did not have an intelligence that would allow med skills to be developed deep into the game. her int would be equivalent to a 4 in the release day version of wasteland 2. inxile boosted that character's intelligence to 10. since we is going old skoole, you may need to wait til a few players get deep in the game and post their impressions before you get a definitive answer. HA! Good Fun!

true. in point o' fact, unlike the imagined "spiritual successor" nonsense we have seen tossed 'bout recently, obsidian did makes the following claim on the kickstarter page for project eternity. "Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment." two years ago, folks happily paid obsidian to give'em iwd-style combat. complaining that combat is not fun is always a valid point, but anybody who complains that combat "will be like IWDs" were clear not paying attention when they handed over their euros or greenbacks or yen to obsidian. "All this reminds me of IWD2's issue with "0 xp for you if you are X levels above the mobs you are fighting"." am not likely to give bis/obsidian a break, but what you were complaining about were a d&d mechanic. bis attempted to design challenging and fun encounters, but due to d&d d20 cr, particular monsters might not result in xp for a party, particular a smaller party that had level'd quicker. cr is a mechanic for a pnp system with a living and breathing dm. it obviously were not ideal for a crpg, but bis were stuck with it. neverthless, am thinking they were more concerned with getting players to face challenging and fun encounters as 'posed to making sure that every critter death resulted in xp. after all, developers could always adjust Quest rewards to make certain that folks were getting xp. HA! Good Fun!

you can force a player to speak to a quest giver. PoE is gonna be a story-driven game, like it or not. there will be essential plot points and such quests can be given simultaneous with reaching one o' those initial plot points. regardless, in the event that the quest giver is missed, such quests can be added automatically to a quest log. these is not noteworthy hurdles. *shrug* if the only point is to prevent the developers from calling an award of xp a quest, then it strikes us as silly. if you can offer players multiple routes to achieve objectives in a crpg, how can that be a bad thing? therefore, if you expunge options just so folks feel better that they is getting combat or exploration specifically, well, that doesn't make any sense to us either. HA! Good Fun!

am agreeing that josh statements is consistent... save for trap/lock xp. even so, we can see a bestiary and exploration being handled far better via quests. if you got objective rewards that allow for multiple methods o' completion, then that kinda sounds like a quest, even if is only completed via a mechanical process. if you do not give multiple methods o' completion, then developers is cheating themselves o' increasing meaningful role-play and replay options. am not certain what would be the point o' having a quest with multiple options for completion and satisfaction, but necessarily having different nomenclature just to appease the folks who want different kinds o' xp from quest xp. seems rather... silly. HA! Good Fun!

honestly, we don't see an advantage of Not doing as a quest. in case it were missed, kgambit added ideas http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68164-a-different-view-on-the-whole-xp-controversy/?p=1502756 is more you can do with quest structure. more should be better if we is talking of choice in a crpg, yes? HA! Good Fun!

am understanding that josh wants to throw folks a bone, but wouldn't it be better to use quests to achieve your goals? http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68164-a-different-view-on-the-whole-xp-controversy/?p=1502749 whether it's exploration or a bestiary or even traps, we can see quests that would offer more options and ensure greater balance. *shrug* if the ultimate goal is to quiet the complainers, then we can see setting up various small objectives to give 'em a warm and fuzzy feeling, but you can accomplish the same thing with quests... but better. HA! Good Fun!

sadly/stoopidly, the equipment threshold is meaningful, particularly for front-line combatants. is ridiculous that a stat you might happily drop to 1 needs to be at 4 or 5 because of 1 piece of gear? HA! Good Fun!

were kinda surreal for a person who lives in nor cal and sees more raider and niners football than we might wish to observe the niners being the team that implodes in the second half as multiple opponent drives were extended due to costly personal foul calls. next game, harbaugh will direct his offense, without exception, to run on first and second down and then throw deep on 3rd. at that point we will be certain that an exorcist needs be called in to expel al davis' spectre from the niner's locker room. HA! Good Fun!

it's 4, I believe. 5 is for the other. poorer armor (the brown one) it was 4 in the beta. according to the boards, combat armor is now requiring 5 str. HA! Good Fun!

if we could actual hear? why would that be strange? we has been attracted to a few musicians After hearing them play. we woulda been unlikely to have thought singer X or guitar girl Y were hot, but after seeing them perform and hearing them, they became attractive to us. doesn't seem strange at all. probably a maturity thing. HA! Good Fun!