Gromnir

your question reveals a pervasive poe misconception. the attributes, while a significant factor in character development, is relatively less important than your talent choices. a perfectly viable and powerful priest is possible with less than optimal attributes scores. am reluctant to say the same about ability and talent choices. regardless o' attribute choices, you will be able to make an effective priest if you pick appropriate talents and abilities. our potd priest o' wael, who ended up second only to grieving mother in our final damage calculations, had the following attributes: m 10, c 10, d 10, p 16, i 16, r 16. too many people assume that attributes is vital in poe because attributes is so vital in other crpgs. poe attributes IS important, but is not near as determinative o' success as many folks would have you believe. HA! Good Fun! ps we get that you specific ask about min/max, but even so, the attributes should not be a limit or focus o' your character building plans.

am near certain josh is/was posting after poe release, just not as josh. posting as a developer changes the dynamic o' a board discussion. some folks defer to developers. other folks is instant antagonistic. post with an alt allows discussion w/o all the sawyer/obsidian baggage. that being said, actual haven't seen what we believe to be his alt in the last week or so. HA! Good Fun!

same. am not a fan o' spells per rest, but before we knew wizard or priest casting mechanics, the board populace were discussing the issue and were not favorable towards a mana, fatigue, or other mechanic that would allow for per encounter spel use. the further the poe wizard were removed from D&D/ie mechanics, the greater were backer resistance. the backers were overwhelming demanding that the poe wizard be familiar and that its casting be closer to vancian than not. aside: limiting saves and/or rests in specific areas is the worst solution we have heard yet. we were annoyed enough with not being able to rest in the wailing banshee lighthouse and that were in defiance bay. limiting camping supplies does result in us hoarding spells, but the alternatives suggested is no more appealing than is humping back to an inn after every fight. hell, in our plays o' poe so far, we specific designed aloth to take weapon focus noble, all the blast abilities, and a few o' the ranged combat powhaz in an attempt to make our wizard more useful when not casting spells. as between taking sceptre enhancements with abilities or talents v. returning to the inn frequently, we chose sceptre. HA! Good Fun!

LMAO. Tob is not BG2? Then I guess this cover with the title Baldur's Gate II has nothing to do with BG2. There's no need to be obtuse Gromnir. its not. poe don't have the benefit of an expansion yet either you clown. ToB were a separate offering with a separate price tag. we mentioned how utter unfair and stoopid it is to compare poe to bg2, how obsidian even mentioned that they wouldn't manage all that bg2 did(a game which were the 6th iteration o' the ie games?) and you go even further by using the improvements included in an expansion of bg2 to make comparisons? you and stun is either simple hypocrites or willful obtuse. choose. HA! Good Fun!

am trying to speak with a guy who is only gonna throw p00p. you ain't yet named one actual bg2 advantage. high-level abilities don't count as they is ToB, and if all you got is traps you are still fail 'cause that is all the vanilla thief has. the multi-class also has trap setting and either genuine weapons combat skills or spells. maybe the multi-class is lagging 'cause it cannot max pick pocket as early as the vanilla thief? *sigh* this is so utter pointless. you defy any attempts to make intelligent contact. am not kidding. UNDERpowered is necessarily a relative term. forget your self-refuting nonsense, but try and focus for just a sec. HA! Good Fun!

I gave one. In fact, I gave one and cited undisputable numbers to support it. Again Gromnir, we cannot have a debate when one side can't read. ... is amazing how you walk into this kinda thing. because you cannot read, you missed how we identified your error. am realizing that it is difficult for you to keep track o' all such foibles, but... HA! Good Fun!

in the real world, if there is no reason for a rational person to play the vanilla class given its relative power to everything else, that is pretty much the freaking definition o' UNDERpowered. wanna use ToB to bootstrap thief into some kinda late-game usefulness? HA! unless you got roleplay reasons for choosing to roll a vanilla thief, there is no rational or reasonable explanation for choosing the vanilla thief over every freaking other option. UNDERpowered. HA! Good Fun!

you can start bg2 with your multi-class thief having maxed traps skill, so... perhaps you are confusing with ToB high level skills. regardless, the multi-class thief will actually be useful in combat with either spells or weapons. so, coming up with some kinda bass ackwards rationale as to how the vanilla thief is anything other than UNDERpowered is simply stun being stun... again. compared to kit for thieves, dual-class or multi-class, the vanilla thief is a clear dog. "Okay. I just wouldn't want any derails to occur accidentally. " pointing out that bg2 or bg comparisons to poe is irrelevant, unfair and stoopid is one o' the most over-exposed topics o' discussion on these boards. as soon as the kickstarter were announced, the discussion o' how much obsidian needed to adhere to the ie game formula were debated. as soon as the beta were released, the knuckleheads started in on the "spiritual successor" nonsense as some kinda imagined proof that obsidian had failed to meet kickstarter promises. in a board filled with redundant, pointless and moot topics, this is one o' the most glaring examples o' a nerdling Heart of Darkness. HA! Good Fun!

yes. is two distinct aspects contributing to improved efficacy o' priestly seal spells as cast by a priest with high mechanics skill. 1) trap math is better for generating accuracy than is priest spell accuracy. and 2) whatever bonus you get from mechanics for trap accuracy boosts the spell accuracy of seal spells. simple by using trap accuracy v. priest accuracy, you benefit between +20-30 for accuracy determination. the priest with 10 mechanics gets another +30. so, the mid level priest, wearing gloves of manipulation, could see a relative +50-60 to accuracy compared to the rest o' his/her spell repertoire. HA! Good Fun!

we already said that it ain't. HA! Good Fun! edit: better clip

it makes them UNDERpowered. take fewer thief levels makes MORE powerful. a thief/Mage is far more efficacious than a vanilla thief. can get all the thief trap skills w/o having to take more than a few thief levels. focusing on relative power, it doesn't make any sense to play a vanilla thief in bg2. that makes the thief, by comparison UNDERpowered. HA! Good Fun!

sure. keep telling yourself that story. a fighter/thief or thief/mage could get same trap skill as the vanilla and not be as useful as deliberate fart in combat. HA! Good Fun!

your vanilla thief were underpowered though. sooo... HA! Good Fun!

okie dokie. we accessed a crate and sent l007 directly to stash. unfortunately, our paladin's equipped breastplate disappeared after disengaging from the crate. no breastplate in stash or in crate or elsewheres. HA! Good Fun! edit: particular odd is that we reloaded our most recent save, which were the autosave upon entering the valewood map for the first time, and our character was naked. the breastplate he were wearing upon entering the map were gone from the autosave.

hmm. our favorite bond girl were actually colonel rosa klebb number two need not be named HA! Good Fun!

I feel genuine pity for people with this opinion. Genuine. Pity. There's nothing wrong with BG2 mind. it is a valid opinion. at the time, bg may have seemed like a revelation, but much o' the glory being heaped 'pon it is born o' nostalgia. bg1 encounter design were a step 'bove diablo, but that ain't saying a whole helluva lot in 2015. 1 tactic were all we ever needed in bg1. is not an exaggeration neither. by the time we could cast haste and summon critters, our tactical considerations disappeared. a hastened party armed with ranged weapons and utilizing near inexhaustible summons as a mobile meat shield, were the end o' bg tactical considerations. combat in bg1 were almost universal poor and more than a few such encounters were so freaking exploitable that it made a genuine mockery o' the pnp rules from which bg were spawned. the greater basilisk map? HA! took 5 minutes to clear the entire map o' gnolls and basilisk-- greater and lesser. one character, made immune to petrification via a 2nd level spell, could wipe out the singest greatest xp pool in bg in 5 minutes or less. whatever challenging or intriguing combat encounters bg1 did contain, such brief moments were largely nullified by the presence o' You Win potions and scrolls... which were one o' the few major legacy mistakes that carried over to bg2 btw. immunity to undead/magic/whatever scrolls and/or supergroovypowerup potions should have remained a solely bg1 mistake. the writing in bg1 were cliché to the point o' camp and companion interaction amounted to a couple o' catch phrases and maybe a perfunctory quest... a quest that one mighta not even realized were completed. not kidding. kivan were wanting vengeance against tazok and his bandits... maybe. he did not react after confronting tazok and even after possibly killing the half-ogre early in the game. heck, due to a bug that never did get fixed, kivan could forcibly leave the party even after confronting and defeating tazok's bandits. regardless, there were zero recognition by kivan that his "quest" were resolved... and he were hardly an exception. as for the bg story in general, the whole premise o' creating a synthetic iron shortage by "poisoning" iron in mines when you already got a small army o' bandits causing economic disruption along the sword coast were patently ridiculous, and the self-destruct mechanism for the cloakwood mines might have been appropriate in a James Bond game, but only if ms. honey ryder had been the joinable npc you picked up at that location... as 'posed to the fighter/cleric dwarf. sarevok? he were a caricature. a cackling villain bent not just on worldly domination but godhood... oh, and 'course he were unfeeling towards his moll as well. poor tamoko, we knew you so briefly... but 'bout as well as any character in bg. etc. maybe you not agree with all such criticisms, but is not as if the critics o' bg were hard to find. all throughout bg2 development, the critics were quite vocal. is kinda similar to how we can look at poe reviews and see near universal applause, but look at these boards makes it apparent that the appreciation is hardly universal. bg2 fixed, or at least improved, many o' the more terrible aspects o' bg. combat encounters became more complex and varied. wilderness "exploration"were largely abandoned in favor o' more large set-piece quest loci such as eyeless and the planar sphere. companions stories were actual developed in bg2. the bg2 antagonist(s) were more complex than were bg1 sarevok, though even the biowarians concede that it were a bit difficult to get at the heart o' irenicus conflict in bg2. bg2, not surprisingly given the number o' ie games that preceded it, were a much better game than the original ie offering. should not be surprising that folks could like the improved model but not the original half-baked offering. btw, this is an example o' homage. HA! Good Fun!

Why would you use a Rogue as your Mechanics expert anyway? the obvious reason is that for no other class will the skill point investment be as cheap as for a rogue. ... there shouldn't need be an explanation of the obvious. we get high mechanics cheaper and faster with a rogue. *shrug* also, trap setting is ideal for a character who also has high stealth. we can get closer to foes and set traps with greater precision by using a rogue with high mechanics (for the accuracy bonus) and high stealth. no other character can start with the kinda bonuses a rogue gets for stealth and mechanics. HA! Good Fun!

Yeah. Except one seal makes more difference. Way more difference. that very much depends. ogres, for example, is having poor dr v. corrode. get a 5th level priest to set a noxious burst trap that crit 3-4 ogres +50 damage and sicken them at the start o' combat? there is no seal for corrode. even so, we can use the corrode trap and then use the seal spells as well once combat starts... use on sickened ogres. is not a one-or-the-other proposition. we can't set the trap during combat, so from a tactical standpoint, we frequent get more mileage from our priest using their high mechanics skill to set non-spell traps before combat... traps that will be efficacious against particular foes. that ain't a meta-knowledge exploit either as it is part o' the bestiary and players is 'posed to learn foe qualities. gotta be smart about traps, and yeah, frequently a seal spell will be more efficacious, but just as frequent, the trap will be more advantageous. HA! Good Fun! ps the lowly poison dart trap is overlooked far too often. the weakened state is a significant debuff. sure, is not an aoe that is gonna hit multiple targets. but set up trap(s) to near guarantee at least one or two foes will be weakened from start o' combat is a heck o' an advantage.

Me neither, that's a great thing. Just not salient to this discussion, because no choice was made. a choice were made. you were oblivious to the choice... possibly willful. HA! Good Fun! It certainly is making a choice when someone says "REMEMBER OTHER FACTIONS WONT WORK WITH YOU" and you say "OK!" You keep saying that, but that never actually happens in game. They say that other factions will be "angry" at you, but they never flat out state that you will be locked out of a future game mechanic just by accepting the quest. Those aren't quite the same thing, especially for more casual gamers that don't have finely tuned meta-game senses. actually, meta-game is precisely what you want. you are given a choice. you are told quite clear that you are making a choice, so it is not ambiguous or accidental and you are also given an, "i need to think about this option," that the player doesn't see in most other dialogues. that alone should warn folks that this choice IS different. the fact that you are not enlightened o' all the mechanical implications is indeed avoiding the meta-game force-feeding, but you do know you are making a choice and you should realize that the choice is different. also, as were noted elsewhere, and given that this is now a spoiler thread we don't mind mentioning, the ultimate choice you make at the hearing is unaffected by the faction you aligned with. is this actual 'bout the faction talent and the faction store? folks gleeful kill the dozens or mafia family members but then is bothered that they cannot get access to the talent or faction specific goodies? kill maerwald (sp?) in caed nua and you got 3 choices regarding what you can do with his soul. we are not informed specific o' the mechanical implications o' the choice. we needs make a CHOICE based on the knowledge we would have within the context o' the game, and that is a good thing. choice were not fully informed, so why not complain about it too? and how much knowledge do you need or would be sufficient? you need to know that by taking knowledge rather than setting maerwald's soul free the specific tangible advantage you are gonna, maybe, possibly receive if you near complete endless paths? would you have chosen different if the reward item had been a universal beneficial ring rather than a weapon that your pc might not actual get use outta? so, how much information do you need for your choice to be informed enough within the game? if you get the faction head warning, then you cannot justifiably complain that you did not know that you were making a choice. so how much meta-information were necessary for folks to feel that the choice were informed... and informed enough? HA! Good Fun!

Me neither, that's a great thing. Just not salient to this discussion, because no choice was made. a choice were made. you were oblivious to the choice... possibly willful. HA! Good Fun!

we weren't surprised either, but is clear that a number o' seemingly rational folks were taken unawares. "we weren't particular distraught by the manner in which the faction choices were presented and the way the warning were given. even so, obsidian does needs be reactive to what players do rather than what Gromnir believes is reasonable. it appears that more than a few folks were confused by the choice. if those few is more than just isolated folks, then obsidian does have some easy options to fix. 'pon entering defiance bay you get a scripted encounter with a messenger from l. webb that cryptic warns you, as a new potential player o' significance in defiance bay politics, about aligning with any individual faction? between that and the warning from the faction heads, we suspect the number o' people confused by the significance o' the choice would drop. " people don't always respond the way we expect 'em to. if enough people is being stymied or frustrated, there is a few minor ways to clarify the significance o' the choice. HA! Good Fun!

Why are you still going on about how clearly they signposted the Dozens vs. Knights thing when I have said as much myself multiple times now? I never once said that it wasn't clear that supporting either the Knights or the Dozens would alienate the other group. It was clear, I agree with that and haven't said otherwise. My main issue is not knowing the scope at all. In other words, "if you do anything for us (X) you'll piss off them(Y)" doesn't help me much because I didn't know that I would be at some point forced to choose between X, Y, and Z for the main culmination of the Act II issues. I'm happy to concede the point, though, if you disagree. My main purpose in commenting was that there's more to the confusion than signposting the Knights vs. Dozens thing, which your orignial post suggested was the whole issue. It was just speculation, just like thinking that you would ever have to choose between siding with the Domeonels and siding with one of two other groups would be speculation. The point being that none of these things was clearly more likely than any other. It's not as if every person or group you hear of ends up being a possible faction to side with, so to assume it about the nobleman I hadn't heard of before entering Defiance bay or about the Domeonels would have been a stretch. Obviously, I misunderstood and thought that you were suggesting that you would still get quests from them, which you weren't. My mistake. you can, up to a point. do one or two quests/task against their interests and you can still get invited to meet the head o' the family... who will reject you. even so, there is at least one more task available from another doemenel that you can still accept even if the family is attacking you in the streets at night. and keep in mind that after any one o' your earlier faux pas with the doemenel's, you had an opportunity to do two more such tasks even so. you sided against them both times. if obsidian had then allowed you to align with the underworld crime organization that you had injured via bloody mayhem on multiple occasions, now that would be noteworthy. freedom has costs. HA! Good Fun! ps we weren't particular distraught by the manner in which the faction choices were presented and the way the warning were given. even so, obsidian does needs be reactive to what players do rather than what Gromnir believes is reasonable. it appears that more than a few folks were confused by the choice. if those few is more than just isolated folks, then obsidian does have some easy options to fix. 'pon entering defiance bay you get a scripted encounter with a messenger from l. webb that cryptic warns you, as a new potential player o' significance in defiance bay politics, about aligning with any individual faction? between that and the warning from the faction heads, we suspect the number o' people confused by the significance o' the choice would drop.

as an aside, the lack o' warning complaints is far too familiar. is any number o' games where the player gets a warning regarding an inability to return to the current location. player gets told that once we leave Flambekistan, we may not be able to return, so player should finish up any important business before leaving. nevertheless, is always a few folks who do not take such warnings serious. and for reaper, so you killed crime family agents in a village and a family scion in defiance AND foiled a burglary plot involving the same folks... so you had 3 doemenel quests/tasks at that point. how many more did you wish? HA! Good Fun!

as we noted above, there is a way that you can exclude yourself from the opportunity to align with a faction before you get warning that there will be a faction choice. help a certain merchant in surviving an encounter with a criminal organization? kill somebody named doemenel excludes you from joining doemenel's? is a reasonable result that still allows you to do most doemenel side quests. is a limited situation and you still get to choose between the other two factions... but not the crime family that you already sided against and used bloody violence to stop. reaper, you are warned that you will cheese off other factions, so no surprise when that happens. however, you do mention that you potential do not know the significance o' angering the other factions at the time you make the choice. is fair. however, other than some kinda Red Letter warning in bold letters, am not certain what kinda in-game warning you would have taken more serious... and that kinda thing would no doubt bother other folks as immersion breaking and forcible metagaming. the choice were handled quite reasonable. the warning should have been an indication that the choice had significance. not realize the full repercussions o' a choice? am not seeing why that is bad. HA! Good Fun!

to ss you are told, without equivocation, that if you take a quest, you will anger factions A & B. you take the quest. the player expresses shock that he cannot align with faction A & B. am having difficulty expressing our lack o' sympathy. for folks who missed the warning 'cause they got tired o' reading... *shrug* as soon as you get warning, it is on you to do due diligence and explore what each faction offers and stands for... and that info is readily available. again, there is some quirks that Could result in getting too much rep before speaking with a faction head, but such stuff is rare and doing so excludes you from one faction. the results is reasonable. HA! Good Fun! ps added clip that captures our reaction.