Diogo Ribeiro

I'm guessing it'll perk up when some form of announcement is made.

Oh, that explains why NWN OC is a better roleplaying experiance than PS:T. No, it explains why NWN is more about roleplaying your character than a premade one.

Character creation is always relevant and important to roleplaying. No, character creation != roleplaying, but you will have an inferior roleplaying experience if you separate both. Thats not to say a game can't give you the same, or even better, roleplaying options than a game that doesn't have a diverse character creation (an example would be a game with a plethora of options but weak roleplaying such as Baldur's Gate 2, versus a game with many more and much better roleplaying options, Torment, which doesn't have character creation, just statistical point attribution). But you assume that character creation isn't important to RPing, when it is by the sole fact that roleplaying is primarily about deciding to play a character of your own creation. Customizing abilities to flesh out the character you want to play allow for a much wider range of roleplaying possibilties than a pre-made character. So, DE is more of an RPG, because it has one more ending than KoTOR? <_< Subjective, subjective and subjective. Check.

Character creation taken out of context, like done above, isn't roleplaying; just like having NPCs to "join your group" also isn't roleplaying if also taken out of context. However character creation is crucial to roleplaying, as it determines what type of character you'll play. No "if's" or "but"'s, thats how it is. Also if you go by the rule that KoTOR's choices are meaningless. then for the life of me i can't see what Deus Ex has over it. All choices are meaningless as well. Only in the last level do they matter, and they're made right there (as all you've done before is even more meaningless). Deus Ex operates like Thief, with a general mission objective and ocasional side missions which you may or may not complete. I could spend the rest of the day taking games that follow a similar structure and yet aren't RPGs.

It was so long ago then it would be a hard case to say that they copied it from FF4. Just about everything in a CRPG has been done at what point or another. I am sure it wouldn't stop something from saying it though just like how some talk about how much Planescape Torment stole from Final Fantasy (and I don't really mean the spell cutscenes either). I wasn't saying it copied from it, just that it was the first thing i remembered when i read Sam's initial idea. Having replayed it recently, it was easier to remember.

I'd say no, things like the D&D license don't actually hold back game design. Its up to a developer to be as original as he wants. D&D, and other licenses, present mere guidelines, not constrictions per se. What i do believe however, is that D&D compromises game development as a whole. Most CRPGs out there take influences from D&D. The use and abuse of fantasy settings is one factor. The other is the use of class-based systems. You're bound to find many, many CRPGs which while not D&D, still use the classical fantasy setting with stereotypes to promote itself. And unfortunately these are a winning formula (god knows why). Fantasy settings nowadays are terrible and cliche; and class-based systems are usually very restricting (nothing beats out a well-balanced skill-based system). The problem is many developers think fantasy + classes = t3h w1n, and don't try to invest in other settings. Those that do try other settings, however, end up having other aspects that bring it down, and marketing folks, being the smart bunch they are (not), automatically think that because some non-fantasy, or non-class-based games failed, then they will always fail.

It was taken by the Demons of Balance! :ph34r: But yeah, taking Kiel's buckler was strange. They probably thought the +1 to Dex was uber.

^Eons ago FF4 had the standard drama of a Dark Knight on a quest to become a Paladin. Rather simplistic and contrived, but it was the first thing i remembered when i read what Sammael wrote

It had some problems with remaining true to SW, though. The most notable were the neutered lightsabers, which jsut acted and felt like regular magical swords.

Final Fantasy 4 already did this :D

Well for one you could be told to look for someone with a given name, but could have the opportunity of asking locals of where the person is. Second, a sort of pop-up system like the one in Morrowind could work, with an indicator of the person's name as you got closer to the the person. One other system that could work was Fallout's examining option, that would usually display the properties of the selected object/NPC.

Listen to Sammael, he is wise in the ways of CRPGs and common sense.

If that is your line of thought, so be it. If anything is clear here, is that you don't exactly know everything that goes into a roleplaying game.

Where is this accusation? You made it clear yourself that you didn't understand what a statistic is. I didn't had to accuse you of anything. Oh wait, this is part of the "I'm screwed, so let me try and twist what's being said to try and save face" routine, isn't it? Statistics don't have any hidden meaning, or a meaning I only know of. They are there to represent a characters' prowess in any given field. Any CRPG will need it to show how much success a character has in a situation. If you already understood that a statistic is numerical data, then you understand why its important. How do you determine what you can carry in a CRPG? Strength values. How do you determine how fast you can move? Dexterity or Speed values. How do you determine if you can convince NPCs? Statistics which handle things like Charisma. When you create a character in Fallout, why are you given the ability to tweak your statistics? Why do you think they are important? They determine character success and even skill success. Now go play Deus Ex. How do you know you can convince someone? You don't, you just click on a dialogue line and its done. Theres no importance given to your would-be role in this type of situation given a way to measure your ability is missing. How do you determine how much JC can carry? You don't. There's no statistic to determine how much he will be able to carry, because its all premade. How do you determine how fast the character can move? You don't, because there isn't a way to determine it, as its purely based on your own personal skill. If a character isn't being governed by his stats, and is instead being governed by you, then there's no character there, just an avatar or model that works just like any other avatar or model in any FPS. Why do you think almost every CRPG has statistical tracking and character output based on those statistics? Back there you said I neglected skills (a lie, obviously), and augmentations (despite my explanation on why, which I'm sure must be easy for you to ignore). If you still didn't understand (which I'm inclined to think so) why I didn't count augs, its because they are outside a character, and are entirely different from statistics. If anything, augs are only bonuses and added "abilities" you tack onto your character. But they are imposed on the character, they aren't natural to him. Its like considering armor to be a statistic. And what you forgot to say is that most of it is very reduced, or in a scale that barely makes your role important. "Freedom of choice" is fine (even if no game gives actual freedom, and thats just a common buzzword), but if there are very few consequence to talk about, or very strict options, then its failing as an RPG. I already pointed out the weaknesses in those fields (you know, the laughable part where you considered it to be trying to convince others of the game's bad points?). Your role isn't being taken into account several times, you have no choice in regards to how the story goes, etc.

What if the painter paints advertisements? He doesn't stop being a painter because he works for money. In the same way racing doesn

Stop trying to make it seem others have to descend to your level. If you think that making it seem I was doing what you were doing instead is going to save you, be my guest, lets see how long that will last. If you ask for something, make calls on people's knowledge, than run back and say its pointless, you only prove who's pointless to argue with. I made a statement, you questioned the validity of what I said while distorting it, I answered in kind, exposing your poor attempt at sidetracking the conversation. If you call that "focusing on its faults" you're more delusional than I thought. I pointed out what I was asked to point out in context. If that troubles you, thats not my problem. This is getting desperate on your part. I would point out that Deus Ex, despite its faults, still manages to be one of my favourite games to this day; and I would also point out that you're quite powerless in convincing anyone here that I was trying to convince anyone at all of that which you said (specially because anyone with minimal perception skills will read and understand what i said, something you quite clearly couldn't) - but since you're intent in believing in the very crap you're spewing about, go ahead and revel in it. I'll just sit back and watch you sink in it. I went the direction that was being talked about. Y'know, the one you failed to understand, twisted to your little heart's contempt, and are now using as a completely pointless attempt at saving your own skin? When you understand what a statistic is, let me know. No, I "choose to ignore them" because they're not the same. They have their own uses, but are outside elements. They aren't inate to the character. Skills and stats are; augmentations weren't. They still aren't statistics. True, true and true. Oh really? Which one was that? Do tell. I couldn't find that one either. Were you playing a mod? Or did you use the "IAMSPECIAL,WARREN!<3ME!" cheat code? 4 times, though I think one - the Synthetic Heart - wasn't upgradable, or didn't had the same amount of upgrades. Yes, the above proves your logic! Not yet, but you're getting there. Yes I'm sure there's ample proof of this around. Sadder than you leaving a thread after having your arguments brought down? Sadder than you having to resort to distorting what others say instead of coming up with intelligent points that don't contain asinine and unfounded personal attacks? Or sadder than you failing to come up with any worthy point of view? Actually your imbecility saved my time instead. Better to just point people to what you write instead of trying to explaining it myself.

Ok. Lets say i'm a painter. As a painter, i conjure this artistic ideology and claim that art is the expression of the self, and whatever. End result, i end up painting. However, if i only have one job - that of being a painter - i'm also dependant of people's money to survive. That may mean having to swallow my pride and paint what people like more. However, that doesn't make me less of a painter, and the whole point of me being a painter (and of art itself) doesn't stop existing because i need money to keep painting does it? No. Without money or advertisement, many people would find themselves in dire straits. Racing uses advertisment to finance itself, but it doesn't stop being racing at all; it doesn't remove the main point behind it.

Racing is a sport; its not about advertisement. Advertisement is a byproduct of it, tacked onto it. If advertisement was the core of it, every car in the world could do advertisement. By your logic, a bus is not about being a form of transportation, its about advertisemnt as well.

True to a point, yes.

Stats are secondary? What a joke. How do you determine a character's success in roleplaying? Not combat, not just focusing on stats to become uber, not "rollplaying", but roleplaying. Interaction. Dialogue. Options like intimidation, bluff, convincing, etc. If you think that stats are only there for "rollplaying", you are sorely mistaken. Without stats you can't determine if a character succeeds in "roleplaying" as well. How do you determine if you'll bluff someone without a stat to determine, say, charisma? That goes for either a fixed value, or a percentile value. Do tell. Unless you're of the minset that simply choosing dialogue lines is roleplaying?

Racing is about racing, not about advertisement <_<

Its obvious you're confusing statistics with skills. Advancing in skills is something different. Your character (or rather, JC) doesn't have personal statistics, and he needed them. Otherwise, his not a character, but rather just a bland construct. If there are no skills and statistics determining the characters's output in the world, its not an RPG. Statistical values are an estimate of the character's prowess on a given field, and therefore can be repalced with a similar concept. It should be obvious that in an RPG, you play a character which is governed by its own skills and stats, as they determine the characters' success in everything. You can have a "straight" RPG, like Fallout, do this; or blur the line and go with Morrowind, which combines both. But at its core, your character always needs a set of characteristics that determine its functioning in the gameworld. Doesn't Dexterity, or a similar statistic, control how fast your character reacts? Doesn't Speed, or something like it, control how fast he moves? Doesn't Intelligence, or a similar concept, govern a character's cognitive functions? Aren't these necessary to measure a character's effectiveness? Yes. Without these, JC Denton is quite hollow, and his advancement is quite different from that of standard CRPG. When you remove those means of determining character success, and just create a blank character which never grows, never changes, never improves, and you have full control of its actions, its a dramatic change, which undos the concept of playing someone's role. In that moment you're just controlling an empty construct, and success in the gameword is only because of you, not the character. Same happens in Deus Ex because of a lack of stats. Skills still exist, but they don't cover the entire concept. I didn't stated the world didn't reacted to what you do. If all you got running for yourself is putting words in other people's mouths, then i suggest stopping before your online persona suffers the backlash of your own lack of netiquette. I said the game does not have a consistent reaction to what you do. Example? During the first time in Hell's Kitchen, try killing anyone in the Underworld Bar. Manderly will scold you. However, kill the riot cops, UNATCO troopers, civilians in the streets, and everyone inside the Free Clinic - in fact, kill children, drug addicts, people on the street and cops in the previous mission, then kill all these NPCs i mentioned in Hell's Kitchen. Manderley doesn't tell you anything. I'm supposed to work for a peace-keeping organization, yet, Manderely won't throw a fit because i just levelled almost an entire area? Why yes, that is just bloody consistent. Another example would be automatically telling Manderley you deserve compensation after the Lebedev event, yet he tells you it's the last time he'll pay you because it's "clearly not what motivates you". After what - one second after i've just demanded payment? What players can do is not taken into consideration many times. Outside a reward, giving the Ambrosia to Dowd is useless. Finding the bomb in Jock's helicopter is useless, as it will only convinently explode when you don't need rides anymore. Saving Paul or not is useless, as there will be someone else to take his place in the holographic projection to furhter the storyline in Area 51. Instead of giving the vial of Ambrosia to Dowd, try saving it for Tong after he says he's contracted the Gray Death: the game won't acknowlegde it. Regardless of killing Lebedev or not, your next mission objective is the same. Perhaps the best example of a lack fo well measured consequences is that, regardless of what you do, you still get to "choose" between three endings in the later stages of the game. Doesnt' matter what you do, you will always get there the same way. Hell, if you save in the last level, you don't have to replay at all. Great attention to consequences there, yessir. Funny, given i've just brought down your supposed knowledge of the game and exposed your lack of commitment to what was being talked about due to your mouth-stuffing, that comes out as a big ol' slice of IRONY! Careful son, your half-assed attempt at revenge against me for having smacked your head in the past because of your cluelesness is showing. No, but you clearly are. Now, if you're quite trough with that great display of ridiculous attempt at talking of things you don't know, kindly stop bothering me and the people on this thread, and go do something useful. Spare me the "did you play the game" remark. I don't go talking about something i don't have knowledge of <_< And multiple endings hardly make a game an RPG, though. Its how you get to them that counts. Having multiple game paths to reach them would surely make it closer to being an RPG. As it stands, its not much different from your common household FPS. Hell, Half-Life also had 2 endings, at the last stage, and you also got to choose. Does it make it an RPG? Hell no.

Just like you play the role of the marine in Doom, right?

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

Just because its rampant doesn't mean it should be acceptable.