Malekith

I do concur here. People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul. You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might. Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement. But this 100 pound weakling would still wreak havoc with a broadsword. He wouldn't have the right technique maybe, but he'd make tons of damage with each strike. No, I can't really visualize this character. :/ (I can live with Might, but it is a strange attribute for me if we don't go down the Dragonball route where strength equals magic powers.) Think of it like in Anime. The "soul power" of the character determines how strong, fast, magicaly powerfull has the potential to be. Different characters manifest their soul power in deferent ways depending on fighting style. A 100 pound person could be able to punch through walls, another to move at unreal speeds, another to throw fireballs, depending on the way he taps his soul power. Think more Naruto, less D&D. @PrimeJunta i disagree with you that power isn't fitting. The way the stat is designed, it's basicaly soul power, so nothing wrong with naming it power. And inteligence it's basicaly soul control. Many people find the stats counter intuitive because they are. You can't have it both ways. You can't have stats designed from a gamist perspective that affect mechanical functions in a balanced way, and at the same time have them make sense and used for roleplaying the character/defining physical-personality characteristics in an intuitive way.

They actually said they do not have a D&D license and do not want to make a d20 based system in the very beginning. How hilarious and sad would it be if Obsidian's kickstarter wasn't so successful because Obsidian's fanbase is THAT large and THAT loyal, but because the kickstarter page spread like wildfire and somehow everyone interpreted it a different way, with the universal connection being everyone thought "Obsidian's gonna make a game just like from the good old fashioned golden years of gaming," cept everyone had a different interpretation of golden years? Why hillarious and sad? It's what happened. Not that Obsidian's name didn't genarate trust, but the IE games (which indead everyone translated in their minds as "the parts i liked from IE games") were the main draw. A p.much obscure company like inXile with a bad catalog of games and no fans made similar amounds of money promishing the same. And i know people that don't like Obsidian's games that pledged because they liked the IE games. (and like Obsidian devs because they made those 90'-00' games in the first place, even if they don't like their newer ones). And that's why some backers will be angry at Obsidian no matter what they do. IE experience means completely diferent things to people. Some liked IE games despite D&D, and want a new system. Others liked IE games exactly because they were D&D and if you remove that, it leaves nothing of value for them. Others liked IE combat, others hated IE combat. etc. The Ideal solution would be for Sawyer to be upfront about his design goals and be spesific about the things he didn't liked in IE games and wanted to change, but this would affect pledges negatively. So they focused their pitch in the things they liked about IE, and the backers filled in the blanks with their Ideal version of an IE game.

Then wait a few days and the pledge period will have end. You can pre order the game when they start taking pre-orders. Pledge is exactly than. If they fail to make a game, none of the kickstarter or latter backers are entitled to a refund. If that doesn't sit well with you, wait for pre orders to begin.

So basically... What is the advantage of the current system with the exception that it's better? Oh...i dont think that balanced means better. Balanced is generaly a virtue, but i believe Sawyer's way to achieve that has some serious trade offs

That's why i think this game would be better with the D&D stats used only for dialogue/scripted interactions and without mechanical benefits. Sawyer's solution doesn't work so far, while alienating the very same people that he included stats for( D&D fans), and even if he manage to somehow make it all work, it was time that could been better used in giving us a ton of abilities and talents as tools to diversify the characters. Though this far into the project i don't excpect it to help much even if he would go for it, it was a desision that should have been done way back.

I thought luck was generally considered a tier one stat? Not that it really invalidates your point, I guess: it didn't have the greatest stat balance. Stat balance? Guys, are you serious? Stat balance??? Don't make me laugh so hard, it's painful already. There is and never was aim to make ahem... "balanced" game. Balance is required in cybersport, guys, not in single-player cRPG. There is your problem. Sawyer is a big believer of balance, and wants every single stat to be usefull to every class, So each class can tweak the stats every way it wants and still be viable. You don't seem to agree with him in that, but if you cannot accept this design constraint , you will not like PoE system no matter what it will be in the end.

This system is designed in such a way that you completely drop the attributes with zero problems. Sawyer even said that if he wasn't for IE tradition, the game wouldn't have attributes at all. Imagine PoE, but with attributes completely removed. Now tell me, what problems are there?

There would be attributes (the traditional ones even), just without mechanical impact. They would be used only in dialogue/scripted interactions. It's not as PoE is much of a spiritual successor to IE games as far as systems go, so why not go all the way. You can still deliver gameplay that *feels* IE like with a completely different system. This half measure does more harm than good, with the "AD&D or bust" crown unhappy, and the "D&D sucks" crowd (that Saywer is a part of and the game appeals to more) is needlessly constrained because Sawyer feels he needs to pay lip service to a system that it's design is diametricaly opposed with what he tries to achieve

Then he should remove attributes completely from the system. Six attributes are a nightmere to balance, and a wasted effort since they don't have any impact and the system works just fine without them. I know Josh felt that he had to put six attributes in there because D&D, but he designed them in such a way that the people who would complain because "no attributes", don't like them and complain anyway. He should have removed attributes, and have abilities and talents as the sole methods to tweak the classes. And then he should have the six intuitive attributes (str/dex/con/int/wis/cha), only with zero mechanical impact and used only in dialogue and scripted interactions. All problems solved, it would be a better game closer to Josh's vision, and the gnognards who would complain are propably complaining anyway.

BB Fighter is already pretty passive. Seriously, not kidding. He has 1 per rest ability and 1 ability he can do twice an encounter. The other two are just modals you either turn on or off. He and BB Rogue are by far my lowest maintenance characters. Cool, i didn't knew that as i haven't played the beta. So, if there is the choice to have your characterm be more or less IE levels passive, why the complaining? Combat being chaotic seems mainly due to bugs and not a systemic flaw.

Generaly Obsidian nails the voice acting, so i wouldn't worry on that department. And the voice over Lines in this game will be so few compaired to their other games that the can focus even more on quality.

Look. We are talking about RPG game that involves playing not 1 character but whole party of characters. So, some of them could be 'boring' from mechanics standpoint, yes. But overall, as you manage party, you will have whole bunch of abilities. Oh, sorry. Wasn't the argument that fighters shouldn't have abilities because then magic isn't special and they were good enough as they were according to AD&D rules (of the game)? Of course there is a party. Having played many AD&D cRPG games and run tabletop campaings for years, I surely know how it works. And of course that those super fighters that some people claim here wouldn't be such without epic items and super magical buffs. And without thieves you need other ways to deal with traps. And without clerics you need other ways to deal with injuries (amd undead). And low level wizard by himself is only asking for trouble. Teamwork isn't a justification for lazy design and braindead classes (and as much as I still like AD&D, it's faaaaaar from being balanced). I'm quite sure that I have heard more than once that fighters in AD&D are the newbie players' class amd wizards the veterans'. Must be because of something. The player that used to play fighters in my games surely celebrated switching to D&D 3rd edition. I wonder why. But here were are talking about how giving the fighters abilities makes the game more casual, less strategic, makes magic less special... and that swinging a sword (or other weapon) with some external magical buffing should be enough to have interesting fighters. I liked my fighters in BG and the other games. But not for being the most entertaining class, that's for sure. Chuck Norris as a regular fighter in BG would be limited to regular punches and kicks because otherwise, magic is less special. The micromanagent side of the argument could have a point though. But you don't neuter a whole class so a sector of the players get less micro (and only micro the classes they are used to / like). No but i sure as hell excpect more passive abilities so i have the choice to make a comletely passive fighter if i want, that plays just like the IE ones. Something that Sawyer said it will be in, so i'll hold him on that.

^ That. Disagree with the rest though, and i think lack of magic duels will be an area PoE will be worse than BG2, just as IWDs were.

I've beat BG2 without a mage/sorcerer. Also the mage doesn't the fighter's job better than a fighter. Not that all of this is really relevant. At the core of the issue is this: A) Many people gave Obsidian money on the pitch that poe would be a spiritual successor to the IE games. NOTHING is more important in capturing the feel of playing an IE game than the game-play. If Obsidian didn't want to do that; they shouldn't have pitched it. B) As of now the game does not feel like an IE game. In which case, whether or not some people prefer it; Obsidian has by definition failed to produce a spiritual successor. In which case they are either too incompetent to do so, or are simply frauds who conned thousands of people by misleading them on what they were planning to make. Finally as a side note something needs to be stated: If upon release poe doesn't play like an IE game not only will poe be poorly received; there will be no trilogy. I certainly won't be interested in the sequel, and I doubt I'd be alone. I won't be fooled twice. Even if you like the final product, you won't be interested in it's sequel??????????? I don't like about half of Sawyer's decisions and i disagree with most of his high level design sensibilities, but i think people are over reacting. The game will be good and the gameplay will be just fine. It won't be BG2, but so what. It will still be good. Be real. It's combat will be way better than PS:T at minimum, and if they manage another PS:T 90% of the backers would cream their pants. Will Sawyer's system be better than BG2's? Too early to tell, but even if it's not in SOME aspects, it won't be the huge disaster people are painting it to be.

Well, they currently hope to deliver the game at December, so there is not enough time. But since i don't believe they will manage that anyway and will go for a delay/EA, there will be time just fine.

I would not be so sure. There will be many items in the game. To draw all the different sketches propably would take Kaz and Polina a month. I agree it would be an impactful touch and i realy hope they delay the game a few weeks in order to do it, but it's not trival.

I think they should use the 4 months remaining for polishing and bug hunting, and then winter 2014 release the game as EA for 60$. I would be worth the price as by then it will be the most polished EA game ever released, and the money would easily by another 2 months for the artists to enchance the game.

Then maybe they should outsourse some of the 2D staff, or even better hire another 2D artist on site, or bring Brian Menze on this project to help. So far the area Obsidian seems lacking is art, not in quality but in quantity, and this game stakes a lot in it's art. 2 artists are very limited manpower for this kind of project, more so since so much *art things* Area Paint overs, Portraits, 2D icons, UI reworks remaining. I thought Brian Menze is already assigned on the project. This drawing is made by him. As I remember it is for Pillars of Eternity He worked as concept artist at first, but i'm not sure if he stayed to make in game content or moved to another project. I'm under the impression that only Kaz and Polina are working on PoE atm. If they are just the two of them, Obsidian should bring another one along for the pencil drawings or outsource them. I realy liked them as well, but Kaz and Polina have very much to do as it is.

Then maybe they should outsourse some of the 2D staff, or even better hire another 2D artist on site, or bring Brian Menze on this project to help. So far the area Obsidian seems lacking is art, not in quality but in quantity, and this game stakes a lot in it's art. 2 artists are very limited manpower for this kind of project, more so since so much *art things* Area Paint overs, Portraits, 2D icons, UI reworks remaining.

I'm not saying that MOBA players don't like other type of games. I meant that I don't see a reason that they would like this game BECAUSE they like MOBAs. Does that sentence make sense? I'm not native English speaker. Also, you just said "casual" players <_< Most of casual players don't play games that require lot of time per playtime. I mean, maybe they have 100 hours spent into multiplayer games, but most casual players I have talked to don't play rpgs and such singleplayer games that require lot of time. Sorry, i meant casual MOBA players, not casual gamers in general.

Well, that certainly isn't a strawman comment Nope, totally not a comment that ignores the arguments given. Not at all. I just don't see why MOBA audience would be interested in this. Seriously, MOBA has completely different hook than what CRPG has... You might as well be saying "Oh, so you like Call of Duty? Well, you would obviously love Street Fighter, they are both action games!" <_< Sure, SOME people will like both genres, heck, majority of people like multiple different genres, but you are saying "Hey, its great idea to target this one particular market that has barely anything to do with this game!" as if it would be this genius sure to work plan. I'd leave marketing to professionals. Surely Paradox has better idea about what audiences these types of games should be marketed to, at least when compared to companies like EA and that horrible marketing campaign with DA: O... Seriously, what the hell was that. Your arguement doesn't hold water because you somehow assume that all 60 million MOBA players out there are hardcore PvP players, who only play MOBAs ffs. LoL and DotA were the successes they are because can be played and are fun in a completely casual way. 80% of their playerbase are casual players who play a ton of other games and just happen to find this kind of gameplay fun.(i'm one of them). As for karkarov's arguement that MOBA players don't care about story and RPing, even if that's true, i disagree that it somehow make them dislike a story focused game is they like the gameplay. Nothing stops them to ignore to roleplaying aspect and play the game like IWD plays. And i believe that PoE's gameplay (and the IE one) is way closer to DotA,Warcraft 3 or LoL than to something like ME, TES or Witcher 2. I don't saying that Bioware or CDPR audiences won't like PoE, the people who like story first are a natural fit for PoE, and i believe are the ones that will form the majority of the audience. But from the playerbase that hasn't played the IE games, someone who has only played MOBA's or Blizzard games will have an easier time getting into this style of game than someone who only played modern RPGs (DA:O excluded)

And the PoE isn't? That's why i said that as far as gameplay goes, these audiences will be interested. Ink Blot, i never said that they should not market the game to Dragon Age's or Witcher's audience. And of course not all of Bioware's audience or CDPR audience won't care only about graphics or romances, the same as not all of MOBA's audiences aren't PVP only. I'm just saying that PoE in many aspects is closet to these games than Mass Effect or Witcher 2. Don't forget that the IE games were build in a strategy engine, and as far as their controls, presentation and combat went, they were very similar to strategy games. I know many old IE fans that cannot stand most modern RPGs but they moved away into strategy games and MOBAs. It stand to reason that some of these games' audiences would move from these games to PoE style games with a litlle effort.

I think Sensuki's idea is very good. The core audience for this game is the people that played the old IE games. That's not gonna change. But from the groups of people that haven't played the IE games, MOBA's and Blizzard's audiences are the ones more likely to like this kind of gameplay. From the "story and C&C" audience there are what? Obsidian's own audience (which i believe it's already captured), CDPR's (which a huge portion won't like it because it's not an ction game, not Witcher 2 graphics) and Bioware's ( a huge portion won't like it because not an action game, no waifus). The people among these audiences that would be interested in PoE i believe for the most part already know about this game and the game is easy to market to them. But as far as presentation and gameplay goes, MOBA's and Blizzard's audiences are the one's that will like it more. Sure, hardcore PVP player's won't care, but that's only a small part of the MOBA's fanbase as Sensuki says.

pathfinder has a lot of settings, depending on the region. for instance the last AP, was took play in what you could consider anceint egypt, one was about pirates, this month's is about, androids, robots and lasters. there are places which are ruled by undead, there are places ruled demons, there is a nation where magic is outlawed. a pathfinder RPG could look as simmilar or as dissimmilar as obsidian chooses. as long as Tim Cain gets to redo TOEE pathfinder style, i will be happy. How good are these APs? Because ToEE had **** content exactly because they followed the module closely.

Disappointing. I would have liked a fundraiser to be for an original property. I don't think this is the new kickstarter game. Propably something completely separate.