Malekith

We'll agree to disagree then. Such is life. For the record i agree with everything you wrote exept that all these make the writing simply mediocre. Mediocre isn't bad, just not very good. Something that's is competently writen (but no exceptional prose), with a straightforward story without plotholes and characters that are simple and funny caricatures (no complex characters with personalities that feal real), a MUHAHAHA poweranger villain etc. are the definition of mediocre for me.

It was none of those things. BG1's writing wasn't particularly good. Says you. Millions of fans enjoyed BG1. Pointing out that something is popular is usually an argument AGAINST why something is qualitatively good. You might as well claim that a shallow action RPG is better than the Infinity Engine games because it sold more. Why are you on this forum? Seriously.Don't you have another place you like more? Like bioware forums? To be fair, BG1 writing WAS mediocre, and while BG2 was much better in that aspect it wasn't truly great writen. The praise Bioware got for romance options and fleshed out characters instead of the things that they truly did good (great gameplay, great encounter design and briliand itemisation) is what lead us in the current Bioware.

Methinks people overly associate open-world games with MMO's. What's the difference between doing a quest in BG1, and doing a quest in DA:I? It's not isometric, and there are fewer map transitions. Seriously. I'm not going to tell anyone to like DA:I, but at least dislike it accurately, please. Anywho, while I think DA:I is great, in its way, I feel that PoE is also going to be quite great in different ways. BG1 quests weren't the "go collect 25 wolf hides" go find 30 mushrooms for my goat to eat, which consists 3/4 of DAI quests. Though to be fair that's not only a MMO problem. I believe Bioware copied it from Assasins Creed, which is equaly shi*ty.

At last, you begin to get it.

Considering that BG1 was mediocre, PoE being better is kin of a given or i will be very mad. And no, i'm 25 and i consider NWN2 an atrocity for which the Obsidian devs involved will answer for in the afterlife. I want nothing from that game in PoE, and i believe that if Obsidian had mentioned NWN2 in their pitch (funny how they didn't-MotB doesn't counts as it's praised only for it's narrative) they wouldn't have gathered so much money.

I'm not sure I follow. The Bioware companions are very melodramatic, especially the silly ones you seem to prefer. The Obsidian companions are usually more subdued and less over the top, which is why you seem to find them boring. As for great Obsidian companions, Kreia wasn't the only great character in Kotor 2, the game was filled with them. There is also Mask of the Betrayer and Planescape Torment. The latter isn't an Obsidian game, but Chris Avellone, who wrote all the companions, works at Obsidian. None of PST or MotB companions were mundane or subdued though, in fact they were more over the top than anything Bioware ever writen. And that's a good thing. The more crazy the better all other things being equal. I will leave Bioware out of the comparison since their writing is mediocre and can't be compaired to Obsidian's. Take the companions of New Vegas. The vanila NV ones were more subdued and less over the Top, while the the ones in Dead Money were way more unique/crazy/over the top. And i like the Dead Money ones way more than the vanila ones

Nevertheless, I don't see any reason to believe that the game will at least be as good as, and quite possibly superior to, other RPGs released in the past 2-3 years -- but that's as much an indictment of the low quality of PRG releases during the past three years as it is praise of the quality of this game. I believe this game will be far superior to any RPG released in the last 10 years -- but that's as much an indictment of the low quality of PRG releases during the past three years as it is praise of the quality of this game. The hard part is for this game to hit BG2-PST levels.

To be fair, i don't know any game what was backed beforehand (more investment for people than buying after release) because of the promise to be like IE games (BG2 in the minds of most people), and then the game plays completely different. Many people wanted an IE game by Obsidian, not a game made by Obsidian without publiser. Others apparently wanted the exact opposite. So it's natural that one group will feel ripped off. Agree 100% about the UI though, it's prety bad.

C.) The Developers Given that Obsidian has yet to develop a single game with good gameplay, i can't say i trust them blind. As far as narrative/writing goes yes, i have blind faith in them. And PoE will be the best game of the decade because of that. As far as gameplay mechanics work? Not so much.

How so? i always liked the BG2 one more( in appearence and on design/functionality,), but as i was talking about how the areas were depicted both games are about the same. I just find the BG2 colored icons pretier because the areas populated and covered the map in a semi-contiguous manner. That was what i didn't liked in BG1, though it wasn't exactly the maps fault. BG would be a better game with half the "wilderness" areas removed. They were just empty spaces. In a game like the IE games,the world is an abstruction. Of course there is more than what you can visit, but it's boring and your character doesn't have a reason to visit it. Areas in the map are supposed to be the points of interest, preferably devoid of filler content, or there isn't a reason to have them at the game. "Takes 8 hours to travel in that area" means that your character travels in the wilderness killing wildlife, but the game bypasses the filler and presents you straight with the interesting content. In the other end of the spectrum you have games like Daggerfall and Oblivion where the continuous world is the whole point, where you are supposed to slog through the boring filler in order to find the hidden interesting content, and roaming around aimlessly is 3/4 of the game. BG sits uncomfortably in the middle, having the worst of both worlds. It hasn't a continious world, it's "exploration" requires zero investment from the player and consists of clearing the black fog to see the prety picture below, while it also has the boring filler areas were you go hiking in semi-empty maps killing wildlife for no reason. There is a reason Bioware changed it for the second game, and there is no other game that follows the BG1 world design outside the very first Geneforge.

How so? i always liked the BG2 one more( in appearence and on design/functionality,), but as i was talking about how the areas were depicted both games are about the same. I just find the BG2 colored icons pretier

Well, yes. But ironically the fixes mentioned by Josh all amount to deemphasizing the role of engagement. They're going to remove abilities that increase range and, if I understand correctly, add some sort of internal cooldown. When you feel that an obvious solution to something is having less of it you need to stop and think if the better solution is having none of it. This is what I've always wanted- less of it. The closer it gets to D&D's 'Attack of Opportunity', the better for me. Now all I hope is that Sensuki won't manage to abuse it once more. What i hope is that they find that the only way to fix engagement is for it to be toned down to the point of being completely irrelevant.

What? They are represented on the backdrop. Its a shame the icons obscures that though. That's only evident with the Dragon's Eye, which is obviously placed near the dragon's skeleton. My point was that the icons don't have any representation or connection to the backdrop, which is why it doesn't feel like a map at all. It's a beautiful backdrop though. Oh but there are some more, Kuldahars tree is obvious, and so are the severed hand. Then there's the pass and wyrms tomb which are less obvious... I can imagine that some detailed representations are entirely obscured by the icons as well, such as Easthaven and maybe the vale.. Anyway, I think we agree then in that the superimposed icons mess up the feel of the map and kind of reduce it to a backdrop. In that regard I think that PoE's map does a better job than the IE games did of integrating the icons with the map. Not BG2 though, i find it superior to PoE's map, and that's why i asked for BG2 way of depicting areas instead of the IWD one. BG2 had the best area representation. NWN2 map always seemed to me like the worst of both cases without the benefits of either, subpar backround with badly looking areas on top. I would aslo be ok with having an actual map-like map, like PST had.

No need to tell me, i know

It really isn't a garbage artstyle. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it intrinsically garbage. It's just a more sketchy/gestury style. How much detail are you going to get in a map, anyway? "Oh look! That little market stall that takes up 4 pixels on the screen ACTUALLY has lots of super detailed cloth folds and stuff in it! WOOOOH!" That's how you do a paintly/scetchy style map: Just instead of the crappy area icons have a blue outlining in the part of the map representing an area like the BG2 areas did

He never said that we should copy CoD. And the IE games had RTS feel. I also think Obs should take ideas from Warcraft 3 or Starcraft 2 (especially in spell effects), but if the wording sits ill with you, instead of taking ideas from RTSs, think of it as taking ideas from the IE games. Because so far PoE plays like a mix of NWN2 and DAO instead of BG2/IWD

http://forums.obsidian.net/user/13-chris-avellone/ Just PM him here.

Next kickstarter pls

I posted it it in Shevek's thread so the start maybe out of context, but here

In what universe Select all-> Attack is good gameplay? If it is,PST had the most exciting combat ever. And no, what made the IE combat good was the magic spells. In PoE magic is a toned down bad copycut, with all interesting spells missing. For me BG2 > IWD > IWD2 >BG > PST as far as gameplay goes, with only BG2 having truly great combat(even better with SCS). Currently PoE sits between BG and PST, being closer to the latter. Not exactly difficult, but tedious and boring. All in my opinion of course. All Shevek's (and Sensuki's answering one) videos show is that you can make combat irrelevant, which is a good thing in my book. Having to engage and micromanage mundane-non game changing abilities every encounter would be a nightmare. Still not similar to IE combat, where the gameplay constituted of moving characters around, in and out of combat and choosing targets (engagement prevents that) pausing by going to inventory(PoE doesn't allow that), pausing to drink potions(PoE doesn't have that), and pause to use a spell or HLA. PoE allows that, in fact turns it to eleven by giving most classes active abilities instead the spellcasters only and preventing out of combat casting which was the only form of casting in IE games that you didn't pause the game for. That makes pausing in PoE much more excesive than IE games. Not all the changes are bad (going to inventory and drinking potions are a no issue thing). The thing that absolutely destroys PoE combat for me is the lack of hard counters, interesting and overwhelming spells and spell combos, and the puzzle like nature (with multiple solutions) of some encounters. Even IWDs which didn't had so much hard counters and puzzle like battles (and as such were more boring than BG2) still had the overwhelming spell combos that could change the battle on the spot. PoE spells are severly underwhelming compaired to even that, and it's by design. And don't start about overpowered mages. Nothing stoped Josh from making the mages on par with the BG2 ones, and use the soul excuse to give the other classes hard counters and supernatural abilities of equal power. Give Chanter all summoning spells and allow out of combat summons. Give chanter all the charm/stun/dominate, but increase the duration of these spells as it was in AD&D. Give rogue invisibility/short range teleport/ shadow door/poison abilities. Make paladins magic registand like monks were in BG2. Give monks antimagic abilities like inquisitors had in BG2 etc. You could retain class balance while still having overwhelming magic, hard counters and chess like wizard duels with move and countermove. Only now the other classes could take part in those duels as well, turning BG2 wizard duels in PoE party duels. I would consider a game with a combat system like this combined with Obsidian's writing ten times better than BG2, and BG2 is my favorite game besides PST. It all comes to Josh Sawyer (and others) not enjoying that kind of combat and me (and others) not enjoying the kind of combat he prefers. So yeah, from my point of view PoE combat still sucks, and will continue to do so since it's intentional.

Good. If PoE 2 turns good i'll remember to thank you guys But since i didn't like New Vegas, and PoE seems kinda bland from a gameplay perspective, i'll hope Avellone or Cain are the nexxt kickstarter's LD

Well, hard and boring is the worst possible combination for a game's combat. If combat can't be made good (and while i agree with most of your posts and like your determination to improve this game, i fear Josh won't listen as is seems that most of the problems of PoE combat is by design since Josh believes they make good gameplay) i would prefer a select all->attack playstyle and play this game as a second PST

Don't even go there. Yes, it would be fine, great even. After all my favourite IE spell was the IWD's "Contact other plane". I would prefer a game where magic is completely separated from combat, were playing a mage would be a game in itself. You could pass through walls, read peoples minds, dominate them in dialogue, divining Information, insta killing enemies with time consuming rituals etc. I would be ok if said magic didn't have a combat application at all like throwing fireballs around. That said, the magic system is outside the scope of PoE, nor would be a fitting IE successor, even if i believe most IE fans would prefer said wizard from the one Josh gave us in PoE so far. Indeed. I would pay through my nose to see that kind of magic implemented in a game. Goddamn battlemage-lovers. EDIT: BTW. You might enjoy Blackguards. The game has a tutor character who practically tells you that only idiots prefer to use magic for direct damage spells. I like Battleguards. Through to be honest i value story and writing the most in games, so i'm more excited about PoE. I still expect to like it (love it actualy) even with the boring chore of a gameplay it will propably have. Pity since i loved BG2 gameplay and i was hoping for something similar.PST with BG2 gameplay. Guess you relly can't a game where both story and gameplay are good. Unatainable dream after all.

Don't even go there. Yes, it would be fine, great even. After all my favourite IE spell was the IWD's "Contact other plane". I would prefer a game where magic is completely separated from combat, were playing a mage would be a game in itself. You could pass through walls, read peoples minds, dominate them in dialogue, divining Information, insta killing enemies with time consuming rituals etc. I would be ok if said magic didn't have a combat application at all like throwing fireballs around. That said, the magic system is outside the scope of PoE, nor would be a fitting IE successor, even if i believe most IE fans would prefer said wizard from the one Josh gave us in PoE so far.

Aah, you're trying to cite total party ability coverage in PoE to.... what a wizard can do by himself in a game like BG2...? Interestingly enough, that STILL doesn't even things up. For a couple of pretty gigantic reasons. 1) You can Multi-class your mage in BG2. Your mage can literally be a cleric as well. This opens up a 3rd dimension as, your summoner, Nuker, debuffer, crowd controller, afflicter, and single target focusser is now your HEALER and party buffer too. Oh excuse me, I'm selling things short. BG2 lets your Cleric/mage spell caster also be a fighter. So now he's a Nuker, Buffer, Debuffer, Crowd Controller, afflicter, single target focusser, Healer AND TANK. 2) BG2 mages have access to Project Image and Simularcum, 2 spells we have not discussed here yet, because we haven't really needed to discuss them, because no one was crazy enough to continue the absurdity of a BG2 vs. PoE spell comparison discussion to such a comprehensive degree until about a page ago. In any case, Yes. These two spells open up a 4th dimension. No need for another class (or even a second mage), when a single mage in BG2 can literally become several fully functional mages, all of them possessing the ability to cast spells, simultaneously. Excuse me, we're selling this one short too. Ever heard of the famous Throne of Bhaal army of cheese? Let me see if I can run it down for us. In about 4 rounds, a single mage can become 6 more mages, who proceed to summon 6 planetars. Of course, these Planetars themselves are super deadly spellcasters who, individually, can solo any fight in Shadows of Amn. But you've got 6 of them, being controlled by 6 mages, who were created by your Party's ONE mage....in about 4 rounds. But I digress, Lets talk about a PoE wizard's Hit chance with Fan of Flames! You just described Josh Sawyer's nightmare. He disliked all of these in BG2