Hormalakh

Anti-piracy advocates do all sorts of things that I don't agree with. But Obsidian is a mid-sized company. This is why I wanted to stick with PE. I don't really much care about how other companies do it: I care about the here and now. Unless Obsidian has screwed you over in some way, I don't see how this is relevant. Also, I generally find the excuse that "two wrongs do make a right" doesn't hold much water. Either you stop supporting a company/corporation altogether (by not even getting near or talking about their products) or just stop trying to take the higher road. For many, taking the higher road is tough, especially (when it comes to video game corporations) their games are too good to make a stand. This is the reason why I don't debate numbers of anything like that. Look any example that I give is debatable until the end of time. Either you accept that any amount of piracy hurts (to any extent - even a single firing or a cent worth of lower wages) or not. No example that I or anyone else gives you will change your mind. Saying that piracy is the only factor in the ending of a company is fairly simple-minded. There are many factors involved, such as management, the economy, etc. But the fact of the matter remains, many company spokespersons have come out and said that piracy affects their business. Both legitimate companies that are well-liked and companies who probably wanted to blame anything but themselves. And when it comes to businesses and the economy, the perception of an idea matters. If game development companies think that piracy hurts their businesses (and many do), that affects us the gamers. That's all that's required to show that piracy does hurt. It's the last line of your quote that hurts me the most though. Pirates are not Robin Hoods, that's a lie. They are only redistributing the so-called "wealth" to themselves. I don't think DRM is the right answer in every case. Unfortunately it seems that DRM is a horse beaten to death (many times over) by everyone. I do think that DRM works in some cases, but I don't think that it will in P:E's case. Not even for the later buyers of the games. I still do think it is a discussion worth having and there is obviously a lot of misinformed hate whenever DRM is mentioned. Hopefully, this new funding mechanism (kickstarter et al) will completely change the way game making as a business is thought of. As I said in my post, this too is piracy. You own the rights to it, for yourself or argumentally someone in your property (not including gifts). By loaning it to someone you break copyright laws. (as I said in my post country of residence dependant) Look both you and I know this isn't the type of piracy we're talking about. There might be "piracy" as a legal definition which will obviously be different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Then there is the common idea of piracy that I'm talking about when discussing this. It has to do with a person using a software that he/she has never paid (how much and all that should be up to the seller) for. Ever. Now this isn't a legal definition, but it's one of those "I know it when I see it" type of things. Everyone knows "piracy" when they see it. I mostly agree with what you say. However in regards to point 1, I think Obsidian has to decide that, not us. In regards to point 2, I would have to say that that was my whole intent from the beginning. However it seems that people have taken my OP as a little too "heavy handed." Advertisements. "Free hot naked chicks! Just click on this ad!"

Wanted to necro this thread, because I wanted to know what people's thoughts were on the topic. I actually want to know if the devs have actually made a decision on this, but while we wait for that, if any new ideas have come up I'd like to hear them. I personally like the whole idea of having an ability to "quickly" (not by having to spend money or anything, just a quick party-lore check) identify lower-level items (regular +1's), but the only way you could identify higher-tier items would be to use the item over a period (short or long, depending on item, perhaps?). This allows all items to come into play instead of making any item that is automatically lower than your avenger+5, merchant trash. The risk/reward structure is a little better. You risk wielding a weaker weapon/cursed item for a while until you have enough experience to "know" what it does. Your reward is that you can sell it at a higher merchant price. Or if you don't like risking the time period, you can't sell the item at such a high price. Cursed items might be sold at a higher price too to "cursed-item merchants" who love to cheat adventurers (like you). Perhaps there are other ways of identifying an item too. For example, unidentified epic items always come with a basic description of that item and players who read the tomes in the story (adding to specific lore) will more quickly identify a specific item. If read somewhere that there exists a red sword with a purple gem that is the flaming sword +3 and you find a red sword with a purple gem, you more quickly realize this is (or isn't) the famed flaming sword +3. Or you could "metagame" that. By that I mean, the PC doesn't really identify items with in-game lore any faster than other items. However, you the player, who have read that book about the flaming sword, and who find a weapon fitting that description will think you "know." Therefore you let your PC use that item. Over time you find out if your meta-lore was right or not. Perhaps as you increase in levels, even lower tier weapons become easier to identify (shorter or even immediate identification). Like now you can know generic +2 weapons. This would mean that identify scrolls don't exist (for things above generic +1) and lore-masters wouldn't really know either. They could perhaps give you clues (i.e. I once heard that the flaming sword+5 is a red sword with purple gems, but there are quite a few cursed and non-cursed items with a similar description. I can't rightly know until I use the sword for some time.) So, Obsidian. Any news on this behalf? Have you made a decision about this?

Just once I'd like to see that the mose powerful god is the least worshipped. He is known for his mercy and patience. He doesn't smite the unbelievers immediately but gives them a lifetime and plenty of chances to be worshipped. his "followers" (who don't really worship him anyway) are just sometimes so crazy - killing people and just causing mayhem- that people don't really know much about this god. edit: oh wait i think arcanum did this. that was cool. except for the followers. something happened to them... i saw someone write "an atheist god". that made me think of a god who doesn't believe that s/he's a god. that'd be interesting. or a god - heh perhaps an omniscient one - that has forgotten that he is a god.

With bated breath, I await your next refreshing and undoubtedly illuminating response to my post. It's important to note that many of the options that they talk about in the post you linked refer to options/variability within the game. The ability to customize your character and choose different paths through the game are what they are talking about. Optional/variable content is typically considered interesting, but depending on the scope of "optional" the concerns people list in this thread are valid. Even with content, excessive optional content can make the game more breadth based instead of depth based. This isn't necessarily bad (Bethesda's games do this), but it will disappoint those that would like a stronger main story of the game. In this sense, with finite resources options are often mutually exclusive. You cannot give the option of the longest, deepest story possible while also providing the option of not requiring the player to play the crit path and instead playing optional side content. One comes at the expense of the other. I haven't really been following this thread but in regards to my post, I was referring to the point that options would not be limited only to character customizations and game narration/story but would also include mechanics. I thought that the previous poster was speakign about gameplay mechanics and the lack of options that would be provided. The post states that gameplay mechanics can also be changed (other than difficulty and iromman mode). Being able to modify gameplay mechanics options doesn't always have to take away from the story. Yes, cost and time influences aside, if adding a quick and painless change to a game mechanic isn't too tough, I figured they would do it. But hey you're the game dev, you know better than I how "easy" these things are.

Pirates haven't made a better product. That's bull**** and I'm going to call you out on it. Pirates duplicate a game and release that duplicate for free because they haven't invested in time and money to make the game in the first place. Competition would be for a developer to make a similar game to PE and sell it at a cheaper price point. If you want to argue that pirates give better service, then you should also realize that their competition would be places like gog.com or a brick and mortar. Those companies still pay the developers/publisher for the product that they are selling.

Bro, what? What did I type? Why was I typing at 5AM. I think what I was trying to say was that Ironman is likely to not work the way it's intended to and thus it's a waste of time. I've also been trying to be a little more honest with myself since that first post. I've always said that I can continue to "self-restrict" but that's never really happened. But haha wow. good catch. Edit: Now that I have re-read the first post I don't think continues woulfd be a bad idea as long as it's easy to implement. I just worry about too much time being spent on these extra-features and not on the game.

What I was trying to say was that we shouldn't actively be helping pirates. I will admit that was a little overblown. But no, I don't want to encourage inflammatory comments or active hate. I do like to encourage discussion and debate about this topic as it relates to P:E.

I feel like this has been done so many times. Zelda (deku tree), Avatar (tree of life), Mana (mana tree), Warcraft 3 (ancestral spirits).

Even Shakespeare made his plays fit for both nobility and the common rabble. He was the teacher when it came to drama: always bring your audience back down after a highly dramatic scene.

You CAN make a difference believe it or not, albeit not as big of a difference than Obsidian can make. But you can contribute by offering suggestions to curb piracy of this game. I came up with a few that I listed, maybe others have other ideas too. Going on pirate bay could actually help as well, I'd suggest Obsidian puts some form of pay what you want on their pirate bay torrent pages. You could leave nice comments on the torrent page too, being rude won't get anyone to donate. However, being nice, and suggesting that the devs deserve at least a little bit for their work could net some donations at the least. All those things are pretty much what I meant when I said do something that would actually help Obsidian. The OP wants us to grab pitchforks and storm the Pirate ship in an attempt to tear it down which simply a) wont work and b) be a massive waste of time and energy. Putting out good will and talking up P:E, on the other hand, will have an actual effect. No I don't. Pitchforks aren't good weapons anyway. They're what 1D4 or something?

I would be interested in hearing your counterclaims (and evidence) to the article especially the DRM bit. Really. Please be specific though.

I liked what you wrote so much I wanted others to read it twice.

First of all, no amount of hate is going to eradicate piracy. If it worked EA headquarters would have already become a smouldering hole in the ground. Then again loss of profits from piracy is not all that huge and I would be more then happy to help kickstart an expansion pack for PE if I like the game. I bet a lot of other people would too. Probably a lot more than those who backed PE itself. Also I don't believe in the argument that piracy kill the PC video game industry. Sure games on PC get pirated a lot, but there are a lot more PC owners than the owners of any single type of console out there. If releasing games on PC was unprofitable, they would have been gone by now. Nobody's advocating hate. But supporting piracy by defending (or dismissing those who say that piracy is wrong, or to say that piracy isn't an issue) it isn't really helping to support Obsidian.

Well, the let me reiterate my statement. While people, who pirate PE, certainly aren't getting any love from me, I don't support any zero tolerance policy against them based on the fact that they chose to pirate the game that I backed and they didn't. I think the whole point of crowd-sourcing game budget is to make the game and not to make huge profits from sales. So why bother with all the hate? Because the sales affect the expansion pack. No sales or really low sales means no expansion pack or a really crappy one. I don't think the developers would make huge profits from sales in either case. Low sales or no sales also means, in the long run, that huge block-buster type games will be relegated only to console hand-me-downs. We won't get an exclusive PC-only game with huge million dollar budgets. The budgets will only be as big as people are willing to kickstart (which, yes I guess could become $100mil in kickstarted funding, but we'll have to wait and see). And finally, people should get paid for their work. If they make something and did it because it's their job and expected to make a living doing it, people should pay them. I don't believe DRM is going to be the solution for P:E, but I think that either a "if you pirated, please donate whatever you think is right" or something to that effect would be decent. Ultimately, however, Obsidian should make that decision.

This thread deals specifically with P:E which isn't being invested in through a publisher. The only "suits" here are the developers of the game and us, the backers and gamers.

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption? I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that. If you cant decipher that is it meant less literally than that, then I wont be able to explain it to you. *woooooosh* is the sound of how correct your assumption are. I take it that you have no more "arguments" to make and have now continued to waste other readers' time by using ad hominem attacks. Very well. I'll use this space to make my case again. Pirates hurt us the gamers, because they disuade developers from making PC-only single player games. What we are left with is console hand-me-downs which many of us here on the forums have hated (see DA2-bashing threads). For us to demand better games from developers and then when we are given an opportunity through a kickstarted game to not ask pirates to stop, we are continuing this trend of PC-only single player trash. The one or two games a year is insufficient. We as players (and backers) need to do something.

HAHAHA. Imoen bothered you that much huh? If I'm not mistaken they aren't using roll-based stats anyway, so hopefully everyone will have the same base numbers to work with. Like Fallout. Not sure though.

The way I see it, this was a thread that would show up sooner or later. It deals directly with the game (and its future piracy, etc), and there has been a lull in the forums. Let's discuss it now, cognitive dissonance and all, and get it out the way. Of course, I didn't know there would be an update coming up on Tuesday...

The only thing that thing that we can do is be as awesome of a community as possible. I was swayed into trying and buying STALKER simply because of how cool the community was and how riveting their stories of The Zone were. Also, if we see someone mentioning that they're going to/have pirated PE we can just say "Hey, Obsidian are really cool and it'd be great if you supported them." Attacking a person rarely works to change their mind, and may only further validate their own opinions about pirating the game. Other than that PR is entirely in Obsidian's court. If they conduct themselves in a manner similar to CDPR (minus that legal rumpus) and their game is good they'll build a fantastically devoted following for Project Eternity in no time. As for the CD-key thing, as far as I'm aware isn't PE digital distribution only? The only physical copies going out (as far as I'm aware) will be for the backers who pledged extra for them, and that might be a bit unfair to those people. Good point about the CD-key. Didn't think that one through. I don't believe I've been attacking anyone. My apologies if it has seemed that way.

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption? I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that. I've also asked for Obsidian to be clear with us (which they have been) and for us to think about DRM (or any other possible solutions to piracy against PE).

There was a legitimate story reason why she has those stats. Open the spoiler if you wish for the answer. Yeah but that isn't much of an excuse when you consider that your own character can roll a 8, 8, 18, 16, 14 12. Whatever your character lacks in being a turd, she gains. It evens out the character points I agree though, it's pretty stupid.

I really like your ideas and wish I had thought of them too. I don't imagine DRM is going to be the future, but it's a good way to get people to start thinking of ideas. Everyone, including me, hates DRM. I just thought it was a necessary evil. Apparently it doesn't have to be.

Not wanting DRM doesn't equate to piracy, and the way Obsidian will get the fans of their games to tell pirates "hey, that isn't cool" is by building goodwill, the first step of which is getting rid of DRM. CDPR have realized this, and as a result the pc community have rallied behind them. Their game still gets pirated, but despite that it's hugely successful and has a devoted following who do tell pirates to piss off. Oh I see. You just think not having DRM is a good choice. I have no problem with that. Is there anything else that we (backers,gamers) can do however to make piracy less appealing? What about the developers? What if they put a serial number on the CD. Would that help? What about another copyright protection not as obtrusive as DRM. Would that be ok for you?

I didn't say it was completely illogical, I said that it has no merit in this community-backed game. If there is a bigger picture, I'd like you to show it to me, not by shouting me down. My OP was not meant to be inflaming. Your post however is. For whatever reason, asking you to say "As a backer of PE, I believe that pirating PE is bad" has made you angry. I am just not sure why. As a backer, I want to see a bigger expansion pack and I believe that most other backers here do too. Obsidian has stated that they will use the funds that they get from the sales to make an expansion pack. If we have 0 sales, we don't get an expansion pack. Every bit of sales helps get a better expansion pack. I believe that most backers want this.

There was a legitimate story reason why she has those stats. Open the spoiler if you wish for the answer.