Hormalakh

Raised to the fractional power we hover! Wait... no... Humor aside, DRM is not a bad thing, in and of itself, because it is not simply one thing. It obviously has a variety of implementations. That would be like saying metal is bad because it makes guns, which kill people. That being said, a reasonable level of DRM implementation is perfectly... well, reasonable. Entering a serial key isn't any more of a pain in the butt than waiting on your popcorn in the microwave, or logging into a website profile. Some argue that this won't do any good. Well, to that I say, have you not noticed how many people in the world do "wrong" only when it's convenient? How many people, for example, will attempt to mug someone in an alley for the money in their wallet? Now, how many people will watch someone accidentally drop 50 bucks in cash, pick it up, keep it, and say nothing? Without getting into the "What are the specific numbers for all the different types of piraters (I say 'piraters' here to distinguish from 'pirates,' which are awesome and rum-filled) and their effect on the economy in bar-graph format," I can assure you that there are far more than a handful of people who take free copies of games because they are conveniently offered to them. So, yes, this specific group of people isn't going to go out of their way to edit config files and replace .exe's with cracked ones, etc. So, for 15 seconds of key-entering and verification, you stop a group of people. I think some form of that is probably reasonable, assuming it doesn't cost 8.3 million dollars to implement. But, there's definitely no need to implement some kind of shock-and-awe nuclear winter DRM system that takes a blood sample every 30 minutes to make sure you're still you while you play the game. That, without a doubt, causes some amount of people to put even more consideration into piracy than they would have without such a hugely punishing system. Thusly, I am in favor of DRM being implemented (in a reasonable manner) on post-release copies. In addition to this simple countermeasure, I agree with other sentiments here that the best countermeasure to piracy is to basically give pirates as little basis as possible to justify their actions, or for others to see their actions as justified somehow. Some people in the world kick puppies, but how many people do you think would watch a puppy being kicked and just shrug it off? Yeah, that's because puppies are awesome and adorable. They radiate waves of unkickableness. The video game industry as a whole? Not so much. Not nearly as much as a puppy. Factors are obviously a bit different with the kickstarter process, as has been mentioned. But, going back to the mugging-vs.-money-dropping example, out of all the people who would pick up that $50 and keep it, how many do you think would do that if it was one of their best friends who dropped it? Significantly fewer, I would say. Well, developers need to make sure they promote the fact (and they must make it a fact rather than a marketing gimmick) that they're working to EARN your money, not trick you out of it. The relationship between producer and consumer shouldn't be treated like a battle, as it is a symbiotic relationship. The most successful restaurants are typically the ones that serve the best food and treat their customers well, not the ones who gimmick the most people into choosing them and charge as much as they can possibly get away with while still staying in business. Well said, except for 1 thing. I think a shock-and-awe nuclear winter DRM system would be quite exciting!

Okay, so this more of a personal revelation that you are sharing with the community than a concern that P:E will be pirated enough to really hurt the game. That's a rather large sigh of relief. I couldn't imagine it, but I do miss a lot of threads. I also did(and do) my own fair share of pirating. My thought process revolves around the 'you're stealing sales' argument. Before I pirate something ask myself whether I would ever buy it. If my answer is no, I would not buy this and if I couldn't get it for free I simply wouldn't have it, then I'll pirate it. If I enjoy it and discover that I would have bought it had I known this, then I buy it. I don't think this makes what I do morally sound, but does make it acceptable to me. No I actually do think that piracy will and has hurt PC gaming's future if people continue to not speak out. P:E specifically might also be hurt. But I can't put numbers on it. It would be folly to do so. Edit: I've added this to my previous post.

Do all Chinese and Russian players plan on pirating this game? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure some of them have backed it and others plan on buying it. Backers shouldn't enable pirates though by posting their own copies up on piratebay. China and Russia are in the top 3 countries for rates of software piracy is what I'm getting at. Well then backers shouldn't enable pirates by posting their own copies up on piratebay. That's the least we can do. That affects us because the next time OEI or another country wants to kickstart another RPG game and Russians or Chinese want localization, why should the rest of us, the backers spend the pledged money on localization for a country whose backers are not wiling to support the company but rather those that plan on stealing the game? I don't know numbers for those countries so who knows what the actual piracy rates are.

Hence the trepidation for me. But honestly, this is the internet! I'm behind 7 proxies and all that.

A good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth. Are you saying there's an upper ceiling on publicity and marketing because I can guarantee you that P:E wont sell as much as CoD, Starcraft, Halo, Diablo, etc. Look, if pirates want to support the developers (the actual people being paid to work to make the game), they should back the project or buy the game by paying and also talk about it to friends. Don't try to play them off as being some "bastion of goodwill" here to act as a marketing department for Obsidian's Project:Eternity. That's just false. I don't care about pirates of other games. I'm dealing with P:E specifically. That's why the thread is in the P:E forums.

Do all Chinese and Russian players plan on pirating this game? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure some of them have backed it and others plan on buying it. Backers shouldn't enable pirates though by posting their own copies up on piratebay.

Not all steam games are DRM. DRM isn't necessarily the answer. All games in your steam account have some sort drm as you can't install them without steam and you can't sell your licence forward if steam don't allow it and even then you must follow steam's rules not laws of your country. Didn't know that. I don't have Steam and will be downloading from gog.com precisely because of the DRM. Should they limit their market only by selling through steam though?

Yep I totally agree. It's a discussion the devs should obviously have with the players and backers because DRMs cost money and goodwill. DRMs aren't necessarily the answer. There are other things we can do.

I've been reading a lot of the RPGCodex lately. The article from tweakguides was posted there. I sat and read the whole thing and thought about it. I've pirated in the long long past, using the same arguments that most pirates do (I didn't use the "because I can" one - that takes serious antisocial behavior). I feel responsible somehow now that I'm starting to develop a relationship with the developers here at Obsidian. They've listened to us the best they can and I better understand where they come from. It's just a different relationship. Edit: I also do think that piracy will and has hurt PC gaming's future if people continue to not speak out. P:E specifically might also be hurt. But I can't put numbers on it. It would be folly to do so.

Not all steam games are DRM. DRM isn't necessarily the answer.

I'm all for it, and have said as much in other DRM discussions. Problem is, I still won't buy the game until I see the DRM is actually patched out, which means I'm likely not going to be paying much for the game (likely by that time the price will be reduced, as it was in the case of Alpha Protocol). As well, I'm sorry to say it, but I don't trust publishers to patch out DRM even if they say they will until I actually see it happen (I'm looking at you Atari). LOL. Neither do I. Read my last caveat to devs. Finally, developers: And this doesn't necessarily go to you OEI, but to other developers possibly reading this. Do not ever take advantage of the social contract that we the gamers have made with you. DRM is a hot topic for us. If you make a promise, stick with it. You aren't seen as the "evil, money-grubbing publishers." Don't lose that goodwill now by getting greedy. Some developers have gone this route before and have - to this day - lost support by gamers like me. Do this and gamers will pirate your games. You have been warned.

Very interesting post jive, thanks for the link. Like I said in the OP, the fact that this is a kickstarter really changes the dynamic too. The payment model has changed. DRM might not be the right answer. It is nevertheless a discussion we should have.

A good game sells regardless of pirates' word of mouth.

From the article mentioned above from tweakguides. Last part of page 9.

I will say that I was anti-DRM too, but this is a problem that we must face and multiplayer game this is not. Currently, I am skeptical of my initial judgements on DRM. I believe that I have been misinformed and that I need to do more reading about it. The one thing that I am glad though, is that people like you are willing to even sit and discuss the topic. I am interested in know what you think about a time-limited DRM that is patched out after the initial sales date? Like 30 days after initiail launch. It stops the floods at the beginning, but then is gone when useless. Yeah. I think that's garbage too as I said in my OP.

United we stand. Divided we fall.

Truer words have not been said. But as players we can deter them by speaking out against it. I could quote a rather famous saying here about evil and good men doing nothing, but I'm pretty sure you're a smart enough fellow to have already heard it. The only second class citizens we have are the pirates. I have addressed your other points in the OP.

Unfortunately, I believe that as gamers we allow piracy to continue because we do not speak out against it. We are part of the problem. Those of us who do are quickly shouted down and any semblance of reasoned discussion goes out the window. When society sees something as an evil, then that in itself can play a very important and effective deterrent to piracy. As for your other points, I have either discussed them in the post or have chosen not to make those arguments because I believe them to be poor/invalid.

What do you do the next time a game like this wants to be kickstarted and nobody is willing to back it because they'll "just pirate it when it comes out"? As for whether DRM helps or doesn't, the evidence thus far is against you. Not everyone who has concerns is illogical, uneducated, or hysterical. But they might be misinformed. I have fixed the relevant part, nonetheless. Thank you for that - I do not mean to inflame.

Mine still doesn't work, and what do you mean specifically by "piracy and DRM"? We knew there was one time online only verification but what else are we potentially looking at? Oh ah... my apologies. This is in regards to the thread I was dreading writing about. Wirdjos asked me about it and I told him to wait, as I wanted to find the right words. It's all explained in the thread, but it's a long read though. Nothing to do with BG:EE. Those of you waiting for the downloads can read about it and comment! It's sure to be of interest and I'm sure everyone has an opinion.

You can't just leave us like that. What was it?! What topic?! Anyway, I'd love to know how BG:EE turns out. I'm playing the unenhanced version (six bleeding discs and everything) at the moment. The only thing that I find lacking is the companion dialogue. For the most part, I feel like I could have made my whole party myself and not missed much. If they add a lot of dialogue, I might actually pick it up. It's up. Piracy and DRM.

I start this thread with a little hesitance simply because I am aware of the ire I will likely provoke with this topic, but I believe it must be discussed. This conversation deals with the topic of piracy and DRM for Project: Eternity (hereafter, P:E). Before I get started, I wanted to point to the two sources for my inspiration for this topic. The first is a well-researched (and very long) article on PC gaming piracy and a from the guys at Extra Credit. Much of the arguments heard from both sides of this issue have been discussed in these two locations. I recommend reading and watching those before continuing. With that out of the way, here goes. I am a backer of P:E as are many of you on the forums. We have all given a portion of our own hard-earned money as an initial investment to Obsidian towards the production of this game and IP. We have been promised DRM-free copies of the game and Steam direct downloads. The backers of this Kickstarter are obviously not pirating this game. They have already invested in it. Yet, this conversation affects us and the developers the most and it is these two groups along with future P:E buyers whose attention I want. Simply put: At least in this game, there should be a zero tolerance by all parties for piracy (or copyright violation). Now, I’m not here to argue numbers, lost sales, used game sales, piracy in non-targeted markets. I’m not going to call pirates “thieves” because they aren’t stealing tangible property. But, let’s not kid ourselves either. In this particular instance of P:E, they aren’t "valiant defenders of freedom” either. I’m here to say that even a single pirated copy takes away from what all of us the backers have invested in and what all future buyers of the game are investing in: the creation of a new intellectual property and RPGs in which the profits from the game go towards continuing the trend of getting PC-only for-gamers, by-gamers RPG games. Remember when we were counting down the minutes before the kickstarter ended? How we would hope just one more backer would join us? How "every backer counts!" was the rallying cry for many of us? Well, the pirates are the ones who didn’t back this game, are waiting for the game to come out, and then demand to get a free copy “to try.” They didn’t take the risk of paying money in investing and now want to reap all the rewards of our risk. They are the true free-riders and this time, they are riding on the backs of us, the gamers. Not the corporations. Us. The Gamers. Pirates often state that “the games are too expensive, so I’m going to pirate it because it’s a rip-off” or that “publishers are rich, so it’s ok to not pay them for this game.” If $50 is too much for a pirate to spend on the game later, how about $20? That’s how much P:E is right now (until December 3rd). Yes, they run the risk (however low) that the game doesn’t come out, but then they could put that $20 aside right now, and continue to add to it until the game comes out. At that point they’d likely have enough money to buy the game. Pricing isn’t an issue right now, so why aren’t pirates backing the game now and taking that risk? Why not pay that extra money that the rest of us don’t have to because we took that initial risk? We took that risk and it cost us, why shouldn't it cost pirates? And Obsidian isn't the bad guy here either. They are the actual developers of the game, a mid-tier software development company that feeds its employees by making games that we love. These are not guys in suits. They are normal people like you and me trying to make a living making games we love. As the video from Extra Credit says: Feargus, the CEO of Obsidian himself said, Now whether it’s 1-5% or 91-95% of the copies pirated, that’s taking away 1-5% or 91-95% of the profits that can be used both for the P:E expansion and for a more important reason. By reducing the sales numbers of games for the PC, we are effectively showing publishers that the PC market is “dead” or not profitable (both of which aren’t true, simply based on the kickstarter numbers). Now, some argue PC exclusive titles were killed because of piracy. I don’t believe in hyperbole, but I do believe that piracy is one of many factors for why we have less PC-only games. From the article, I quote: Now like I said, I’m not here to talk about numbers, lost sales, used game sales, piracy in non-targeted markets or anything else like that because those arguments have many pitfalls. Whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. What I want to tackle is what is called “day-zero” or “day-one piracy” in markets which are targeted. If the game is localized to your language, it’s targeted to your market. Localization costs money that the developers could have used on another aspect of the game. I want Obsidian’s sales numbers of the game be truly indicative of how well-liked the game actually is. If a game has 2 million people who actually love the game and play it, but only 50,000 sales, developers can’t prove that games like this are still worth making to publishers in the future. Obviously, if P:E fails as a good IP or game, then we would not need to continue to support it in the future. But if it is good, and people like the lore, story, mechanics, etc then we must do whatever we can to support it to show that games like this are what gamers want. Here is where my proposal lies. I believe that piracy for Project: Eternity can be deterred most effectively through several avenues: Backers: Do not enable pirates or allow friends to pirate this specific game. What you do with other games I don’t care. As I said, whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. If they want to share a copy to see how the game plays, they should check out the forums and the updates or write to the developer asking for a demo. The less money Obsidian makes on this game, the less money there is to make a better expansion (or to make a case in the future to publishers from other developers that PC-only games do have a market). Enabling pirates either in forums or actively giving them a copy of the game takes away from both you and the developer. Developers: For those of us who have backed the game, as previously stated, DRM-free copies should exist. We have taken a risk in backing the game, and thus are both investors and legitimate purchasers of the game. The DRM clearly does not apply to us. You have listened to us and we thank you for it. This is where I'll lose some of you, I'm sure, but the developers should find ways to discourage piracy from the general public by giving DRM-enabled or some other copyright-protected copy - with caveats. Developers: Determine if DRMs are neccesary or if other methods of copy protection would be suitable. A one-time online activation check or phone activation would be fine, but there might be more effective methods. If you do use DRMs, use the most cost-conscious and effective DRM protection you can without being “intrusive.” Do not use always-on DRMs. Honestly, developers come and go these days. While I would hate it if Obsidian closes its doors, it happens. Don’t let players fear the day that their “good old game” would no longer be playable because the company servers no longer work. Developers: Give a toll-free, easy to reach tech support line for DRM-related issues to legitimate buyers while the DRM is in effect. They should not have to pay “several dollars a minute to call tech support regarding issues that are no fault of their own,” nor be held behind computerized answering machines. I also agree with the article when it states “Emailing tech support on these issues is also a complete waste of time due to vague stock answers, so email support also needs to be shored up.” Developers: The DRM should be disabled after a year with a patch. As time passes, a DRM-free copy makes sense. At that point the game will have likely been cracked anyway, and DRM only affects those who have purchased the game. But this early DRM will stop some from stealing the game and purchasing a copy. From the article: Players and backers: Support Obsidian in its choice. We are the players, the buyers, and the backers. If Obsidian has shown us respect, we should support them in their decision and fight against illogical public outcries and mass hysteria when it comes to DRM. Educate yourselves first about the DRM and support them. Developers shouldn't have to deal with hysterical and misinformed customers (sometimes egged on by pirates themselves) alone. Now, I don't mean that everyone who has concerns abaout DRM is illogical, uneducated, or hysterical, but it is possible that they are misinformed. It would be truly abhorrent to first support these folks by investing in them, but then to turn around and allow others to take away from what ALL of us, supporters, buyers and developers, have helped to create. If we show that we are there beside them, Obsidian is less likely to back down. Developers: Be upfront with your fans and customers. Employing DRM itself has a cost, both financially and with goodwill. When you have made your considerations, tell us why or why not you don’t want to employ DRM. Be honest about different pricing for games in different markets where the salaries of the population does not allow for a lot of disposable income. Whatever you decide on your prices make sure that it is fair. Finally, developers: And this doesn't necessarily go to you OEI, but to other developers possibly reading this. Do not ever take advantage of the social contract that we the gamers have made with you. DRM is a hot topic for us. If you make a promise, stick with it. You aren't seen as the "evil, money-grubbing publishers." Don't lose that goodwill now by getting greedy. Some developers have gone this route before and have - to this day - lost support by gamers like me. Do this and gamers will pirate your games. You have been warned. Whatever excuses prior publisher-invested games bring to the piracy debate, kickstarting a game invested by the players, has demolished. This is a new paradigm and the rules are not the same. I am a gamer first and foremost and I want good games to continue to be made. If I have to take a little bit of heat for it, then so be it. As long as those games keep being made for me and people like me. Respectfully, Hormalakh Special thanks to Inkblot for the list of quotes from Feargus in this thread. Edit: There have been other copyright protections suggested by members, these might be worth looking into instead of utilizing other DRM-software.

OMG I JUST CAME HERE TO POST IT! Great minds think alike.

You can't just leave us like that. What was it?! What topic?! Anyway, I'd love to know how BG:EE turns out. I'm playing the unenhanced version (six bleeding discs and everything) at the moment. The only thing that I find lacking is the companion dialogue. For the most part, I feel like I could have made my whole party myself and not missed much. If they add a lot of dialogue, I might actually pick it up. Patience, friend.