IndiraLightfoot

Radioactivelullaby: It has been mentioned. Just 26 minutes before your post I wrote this:

Most CRPGs nowadays don't have resting. Usually, recuperation and sleep have been replaced by cooldowns and medikits. Coming from PnP D&D, it's no surprise I actually like resting in the form of precarious nappies in some unmapped wilderness. Personally, I think sleep should be in, and that it should be linked to the memorization of spells or something similar. Also, we are talking hours here, in a way representing physical sleep. In PE, I'd imagine the dream part of sleeping is somehow weaved into the soul and into magical forces that are pivotal to the fantasy setting itself, so that means sleep is not only a good time for untimely encounters, but also for soul-searching and personal choices on behalf of your various characters. You know those wonderful drawings where we get to do a choice, almost FF-style in PE? Well, imagine those kinds of sepias popping up for certain characters while sleeping at irregular intervals! I'd like to see sleep being confined to certain places - but still rather generously. Also, I have no problem with no-rest areas, as in NWN2, for instance. And while my party sleeps I'd expect there be trouble at times, which very well may be deadly. think ToEE or even the good old SSR Dragonlance trilogy: What I loved about the latter series was the danger of resting. My party may have slain a dragon or two, but we were barely standing and had no spells left. Then came the rest, which meant plenty of random encounters, that could be devastating for an already bushed gang. Even easier random encounters could turn into strategic challenges all of the sudden. I really hope Obsidian go all-in on the resting. It should be important, story-sprinkled and potentially dangerous and deadly. As for the annoyance bit, I understand there's a need for a balance to be struck. Each rest can't be pandemonium. However, each rest can't be kneeling every minute NWN2-style without consequences either.

I hear you. I am a modder and knows a bit of coding. So, I am always curious what's going on under the hood. But when I play a game, I still lose myself in the flow of the game, and try not to think of it as 1s and 0s. It usually works. Also, I read up on the rules before I play CRPGs and spend hours planning the character I'm making. So, once I get the ball rolling, I usually rely on the on-screen info and just keep going. I rarely pause in RTwP-games, but I do prep the party pretty carefully. I'm rather defensive and range-weapon/spell-heavy too. I'd be a liar if I'd say that it doesn't help having played D&D to death, as well as most CRPGs there are. What amazes me the most is that I still love the genre so much, but I think it has a lot to do with the fond memories of PnP-gaming and GMing.

Jarmo, Karkarov, Nonek: Together you sum up my stance on this nicely. Great posts!

centurionofprix: No, nothing of the sort, just the same curiosity I've always felt when people prefer the mechanics of the game before the game. Like you say, a computer RPG is that graphical representation - just add in ambient sound, music, the story, the moving of character objects through areas and in combat. No insults needed. I'm just surprised, given the centrality of the role in roleplaying games, but I am perfectly fine with people playing it that way. None of the sides here should have precedence over the other, that's all, and things should be optional.

I usually went for "core" settings, especially when the games were based on D&D. And no, visceral gameplay of the kind I think you mean here is not my cup of a tea. Still, I'm surprised you'd rather watch that combat log than enjoy the game. Those games weren't that difficult, especially if you had a solid PnP background. Certainly no need to let that little window take over your gaming experience, but to each their own, I guess. I recall, although not so fondly, mates that were all about rules and stats, and they min-maxed as much as they could. Unfortunately, that didn't translate into RPG- characters the way C2B explained in his post. Rather, the opposite, I'm afraid. Still, some of those guys were fun to hang out with anyways.

The first part, where you think a few remarks about the combat log is "outrageous", is still so over the top. Surely, you must see where he's coming from there. And why childish deliberate misinterpretation? Having fun starting a flame war? But the quote below makes more sense, and it gives me hope of your RPG-sanity, as it were: Yes, Obsidian are great at making RPGs, and gosh, I really do wish this game become a challenging one combat-wise. What I've read so far from Josh makes me very optimistic indeed. If I understand you correctly, you are referring to the necessity of good, sound combat mechanics - and that I commend you for, but never mix that up with a combat log. I've played them all, and not just casually, I assure you: BG1+2, IWDs, Fallouts, ToEE, and I next to never used a combat log. I also remove it when I can do so. To me it breaks the RPG "immersion" one step too much. I know it sounds dorky, snobbish even, but it does. I'd much rather just reload and try a new tactic.

Sensuki: Hooly-dooly! Priceless, misguided logic! First you highlight in stark X-mas red quotes supposedly proving Karkarov stating that a combat log is useless. But epic fail: You cite him saying he has no problems with it being in and then giving his examples of what he wouldn't use it for. Still, you call him a potentially terminal disease, a killer of RPGs, and a casual gamer solely on the basis of him not liking anal min-max stats escapades. This is like a cluster of dag, and it needs anal trimming urgently. Just like Rahelron says, if it's anything that's killed RPGS the last decade it's what you are shouting out in big red letters: obsession with numbers. C2B is right that statistics can be a part of tailoring your characters (heck, I love building new characters in CRPGs, and that involve some maths), but the roleplaying should have some central part in it, else, it's just an arcade game with a fantasy façade, like Bejeweled with a fantasy theme. Mate, I don't know how old you are, but even Blind Freddy knows you are wrong here, or at least that you are trolling. Please tell me you're pulling our legs! I've played these games for decades. Come on! "Killing current RPGs..." Hah!

Yay! WorstUserNameEver, you were right! HBS seem to be a marvel of customer communications. I got this email back from their producer quite swiftly: "Yes, I can confirm that your purchase is in our records and it is under this email that you contacted us from. I suspect that an overzealous spam filter blocked the mail or it otherwise got lost in the ether. You'll see the email we sent out below. .Brian Poel Producer | Harebrained Schemes" Phew, I was on their list too. Now, it's just the matter of waiting some more.

Thanks for your encouragement! I just went ahead and sent them a line. I'll get back to you when I get a reply.

I ordered it on the 20th of March on their site, also via PayPal, and I still haven't got that email. Obviously, I got PayPal's confirmation of payment the same day, but Harebrained Schemes have been silent so far. Hmm...

I'm very glad to hear that. Great news, you're on the road to UI greatness already!

Mcmanusaur: That's a very good point. I'd love to see something like that, attributes some restriction for the rare attribute increment to what exercises the character in question have been repeating, perhaps not slavishly, but still. In this way, attributes can maintain a rather static and pivotal role of defining the basic physical and mental frame of the character.

I'd like to see small increments too, and I would prefer stats that very rarely increase too. If there's STR, it would be enough if it went up once or perhaps twice at the most in a game where the characters have an eight-level interval. Also, if there are ancient tomes or something that could potentially increase such a stat by one, they should be so rare that it brings tears to me eyes when I finally find one. But Obsidian may very well go for a percentage skill system á la Runequest or Fallout New Vegas or even Skyrim for what we know. Still, I'd rather have small unbloated numbers that matter.

Jajo: I don't know if you were involved in the PE kickstarter. If you were, you would be aware of the fact that you can make your own party in PE too. Also, even if you have companions in your party - they are already your sock-puppets at your beck and call. You control them in melee, for instance, so it wouldn't be a far stretch at all to use the convo system of SoZ. But I must say, that even if that shift-dialogue function weren't included in the SoZ dialogue system, I still love that UI and the size of the portraits and its simplicity.

I was a slacker backer and pre-ordered it on their site months ago. I still haven't got any email. *Fingers crossed*

+1 for Obsidian considering using an updated version of the convo system in SoZ. It was fun, slender and efficient.

Josh: That sounds great! I can't wait to see what UI you have in store for us.

Same here, and yes they are.

Rahelron: Looking better for each iteration, but I think those scrolls are too much. I'd prefer the lighter transparent text windows and perhaps a tad smaller portraits when a dialogue's up. Karkarov: I couldn't agree more, but I'd say - let those who want to have a combat log keep it as an option, as long as we can opt out of dialog logs and mini-maps, etc, too.

Hmm, if we're talking hundreds of hours (try thousands) and obsessive replaying, here's the top of my list: -NWN2 (SP, no coop or persistent worlds) -NWN1 (mostly persistent worlds) -Civ I-V -BG1-2 I've played many other games 100+ hours, but none of them (like the Fallouts and IWD1-2) compares to those above, not even back in the days of the Ultimas, Pool of Radiance, Dragonlance series, etc.

No problem! Yes, we are probably on both sides of a fence on that issue, but actually I think instant death-spells are silly for CRPGs, and rather lazy game design, as I tried to demonstrate in my own silly way in another post in this thread, so we also agree on something here.

Oh gosh, no way! Just to clarify, I really love CRPG for what they are as opposed to PnP roleplaying: I want my games to be hard. I have no problems with dying many times over, single character or party, even at the hands of a badly infected rat in some nasty sewers. A CRPG where you are "supposed to survive a first blind playthrough without dying or reloading once" would be a sad thing, indeed, an abomination even. The closest I've ever experienced such a walk-in-the-park CRPG was Kingdoms of Amalur - but I think I did die twice there for some reason. The things that made IE-games great, and of course NWN 1 & 2, was that they were at least occasionally challenging - especially BG2 and ToEE - they had strategic encounters that could wipe out my party if I wasn't tactical enough or if a few die rolls went against me.

Insta-death in PnP RPG: "You step into the black swirling portal, and suddenly your mind goes blank. Sorry, Hrufnur, but you are gone forever. Sadly, you were disintegrated." "Nooo!!! I've had Hrufnur since we begun this campaign two years ago. I'll never play this stupid game anymore, ever!!" Insta-death in CRPG: "You step into the black swirling portal, and suddenly your mind goes blank. Sorry, Hrufnur, but you are gone forever. Sadly, you were disintegrated." *Reloads* 'Nuff said! P.S. The font sizes went bananas when I posted it. I simply can't get them to obey.

Karkarov: Wow, it's brilliant. Thank you for making it! Love the art. And you've made it roomy, so there's space for summons and potential mini-maps, pop-ups or whatever. Personally, though, I wouldn't use a mini-map in this type of isometric game. And like curryinahurry, I'd prefer the portraits stacked to a side panel with action/function buttons to the left of them (but that could be a UI option). Also, it seems curryinahurry is right about Obsidian going for a panel along the bottom or one of the sides, perhaps even an L-shaped one.