IndiraLightfoot

That combat would be more boring in turn-based combat systems vs individual timed action sequences is merely subjective opinion. However, what we have right now is objectively a mess. A bold statement, I know. Take NWN1, for instance. Things were complicated under the hood, but not PoE beta complicated. In fact, you can still have individual combat rounds, while still syncing the combat in a pleasant enough way: There was such a thing is one attack phase. A flurry is effectively the smallest unit of time used by Neverwinter Nights, as far as players are concerned. Each flurry lasts two seconds, so there are three flurries in a round. All combat actions taken in a single flurry are essentially resolved simultaneously. In particular, all attack rolls for a given flurry are resolved before the damage from those attacks is calculated and applied. (This is known to reduce the importance of initiative.) Due to game engine limitations, the maximum number of attacks per flurry by a single character is 5, which translates into 15 attacks per round. This is sufficient most of the time since a character can have at most 10 normal attacks per round. However bonus attacks, such as a cleave attack or an attack of opportunity, can meet or even exceed this game engine limitation. Attacks per round are distributed as evenly as possible among the three flurries in a round. A round is an in-game unit of time that lasts six seconds. In addition to being a general unit of time (such as for the duration of spells), a round is the basic reference time interval for combat. Combat rounds are defined per creature rather than being global throughout the module (or even throughout a combat). Each creature's individual combat round is started the moment it makes an attack (melee or ranged) or uses an item. (Casting a spell does not start a combat round. It is possible to attack immediately after a spell is cast.) And for the record: A turn is an ingame unit of time that lasts one minute (10 rounds). All combat was structured around these pretty simple cogs.

Oh, this will surely pound the quid for quite some time... *Grabs coat and leaves the establishment.*

Matt516: Exactly. I second that idea of an automatic turn and the illusion of real time. It would definitely solve a lot of headaches, like one potent painkiller.

If I could like this thread and post a hundred times I would! Precisely, the way I feel. Josh will probably be reluctant to do so, but removing each combatant's unique time sequence would make every single decision for each party member (and perhaps summon, pet, whatnot) much clearer strategically, and this kind of party-based CRPG thrives on well-informed decisions, paused or not. If it got removed, we would no longer need to keep track of those individual pips above their heads, safe in the knowledge that all actions follow the same cycle. Yes, you have probably guessed it by now. We need some kind of return of the combat round.

Why am I not surprised? Once again, thanks again for your fervent and systematic beta testing.

So will I! I can't underline this enough. The benefits from that would outweigh the possible drawbacks with like ten to one.

As long as the quest xp system remains as it is right now in the PE beta, with very few intermittent xp rewards, you certainly have a great point. There's no need for number inflation at all.

I'm not entirely sure if this was so in BG vanilla, but in BG:EE, the entire party benefits from your rogue opening a lock; The reward will be miniscule, but it's still 10 xp divvied up, hehe. A reward is a reward, anything to get a crook hooked.

Elerond: Such abundance of journal updates with reflections and pointers would be very cool, like a GM narrating, but also directing the party more or less subtly through the campaign. However, speaking from experience, such updates can be pretty hard to keep track of as you script a game when you have free-roaming players trudging along in all directions, and doing stuff differently, in different order. I'd much rather have xp rewards dealt much more often (for various gameplay reasons, not just for the sake of it trickling in) and in very small, but still always varied doses. Then, you'll have those players that hate hand-holding, and they would perhaps count such journal updates (if they are too frequent) as just that.

archangel979: Call me conservative on this issue, but I'd really like to keep the xp trickling, regardless of combat xp or some other micro-increment solution, at a slow pace as well, with tiny packages of xp, so that levelling takes a long time. It should also be rewarded more individually, so each party member get their unique xp profile soon after the game has begun and the party start engage in exploration, etc.

A few more posts that sum-up some of the issues and frustrations... Just checked and without the Quest Giver, you get a whopping 0 xp. I went straight to Dyrford Crossing, battled my way through and entered the cave. 0 xp Then I went to the Ogre and killed him as there was no dialogue options concerning the Quest. 0 xp I did however take the Ogre's head and blood. But nothing to indicate what this was all about. So all in all. You get nothing from doing this unless you find the Quest Giver. However, I decided to hand in the quest (knowing it was the farmer) and there was a dialogue to finish the quest. I did receive xp but no xp amounts showed up in the combat log to confirm how much I received. Now if anything is like this in the final game, you may be going past 'xp check points' like the Ogre Cave and not knowing there is an 'xp check point' there because you didn't click on the quest giver. Without the quest givers, this has some problems. Two come to mind: 1. You will have Quest items not knowing what these quest items are stacking up in your Quest stash. You then have to click on villagers to find out who this quest item belongs to. You may be in the wrong town or map if there are city maps involved. 2. You are missing out on xp along your route and this may have problems with levelling up. You may be just off levelling up and going past an xp check point and not knowing about it, while another player will know about the xp check points and level up accordingly. And... 3. You make the player more vulnerable to game-breaking bugs due to lack of xp progression and thus upcoming walls hit due to encounters being too hard, quests not flagged as finished, and even entire areas level-capped, something I've written about earlier. With xp in small increments, and not these bloated quest xp lumps, this will never be such big threats.

Hi! This is just a new thread for the old one: "Do you want xp from combat?" http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68043-do-you-want-experience-from-combat/page-31 This won't have any poll. I have salvaged a few interesting posts and debates at the end of the last thread, just in order to have some stepping stones for further discussion. Well, yes.. but: Now you have to spam click every single npc in each town.. to make sure that you picked up the most amount of objectives before going out. (cos otherwise you won't get the quest xp) And there is no point of exploring this new fantastic cave you found, because you haven't found all the quest givers yet. There´s no reward for doing anything independent. What if this was a regular RPG? The game master says: "oh btw. there are some epic ruins to the south" Would the players then go: "oh no lets stay away from there, cos we haven't talked to any quest givers yet" Or would they say: "Dude how interesting, lets go there!" Let´s say that you at level 5 want to go on an epic "quest" to explore the entire world.. so you start from one end and walk around by yourself for 2 hours. you have lots of hostile encounters, you see tons of new interesting things, learn a lot about the world, but when you get back you will still be level 5 and non the wiser. That is if you managed to do anything by yourself at all? It was probably too hard for you, cos you won't get any xp on your epic travels.. (no progression) It´s not punishing, but it´s a lack of reward.. and imo. game breaking, cos it will take the fun out of doing independent actions.

No worries, Haerski. I'm wrong about stuff all the time. Also, repetitive description that don't add (up) to any atmosphere at all is not much to celebrate, that is true.

Unlike in BG1, where I actually use those towns and inns as hubs, and then my party goes exploring, while also mixing in a few town quests, in PoE, the most effective way will be (if you want to advance your party xp-wise): Reach cities first, talk to everyone, preferably in the order of best xp capping returns, and solve all in-town quests first. Later, do all the quest loops stretching out from that town. *Sigh* Most likely, I'll try and play it my way, anyways, and see where that leads me. The finish the entire xp with zero xp Steam achievement.

No need. I used it for the same purpose at least three or four times.

Indeed. There will be optimal xp capping routes, so for those so inclined, they will be available on some wiki three days after the game's launched, tops.

Gifted1: And then they should add a free-to-cast indication a la Skyrim, which literally lights up the quest lines on the ground, all the way to the targets. :bolts*

And... 3. You make the player more vulnerable to game-breaking bugs due to lack of xp progression and thus upcoming walls hit due to encounters being too hard, quests not flagged as finished, and even entire areas level-capped, something I've written about earlier. With xp in small increments, and not these bloated quest xp lumps, this will never be such big threats.

Me neither! It's like the first time, I've picked a character that's intent on using maces, and then my main stumbled over it in a drawer. Well, it took two hours of searching through every home in Beregost, which was worth it for the RPGing alone, but this was certainly the icing on the cake.

I did that on the first BB, and I got nothing.

Haerski: That's not true. I replayed Planescape Torment less than two years ago, and it's one of my all time favourite games. There are oodles and oodles of exactly those kinds of everyday descriptions. Just one example out of a million others:

No comment. E = MC2 and this equation are mind-boggling.

Moar descriptions of that kind, please! Especially since the tiny NPC models won't be doing any of those actions, anyway - it would be hard to see - this isn't some AAA game posing as a block-buster movie.

kirottu: That was grave news. So beyond tier 25 of the Greater Rifts, it's basically certain dearh?

In Sparkur’s words: ”We distracted a few more townsfolk, while Indira checked out their containers. No great finds so far in the homes of Beregost – a town of paupers, I gather. Anarcon was thirsty, so we stepped inside Red Sheaf Inn, and, almost on cue, yet another dwarf runs up to us, only to be a big nuisance. Sometimes I lament the existence of my kin almost as much as that of the rest of the humanoids. He presented himself as Karlat, and he was all set on killing us. The stocky fellow was surprisingly powerful. Tulippa got in a magic missile on him, quickly and effectively, and dear Furia lobbed one of those dream darts. I’ve never seen a double lip piercing before. Now, I got to see one. Karlat got in two horrendous swings on Indira, who would have died, hadn’t she gulped a potion of healing. Anarchon didn’t want to be any worse, and took his morning star and crushed the left knee of the poor bugger. I did the honours of finishing him off with a bludgeoning blow to the skull with my mace, which so far hasn’t failed me. Karlat was of course yet another bounty hunter. Indira is apparently worth 350 gp now, which is but one day’s work for her in Beregost, so that’s still far too cheap. Around the corner, we met Garrick, who said that Silke, who just had dismissed us, would pay us 300 gold if we were to serve as her bodyguards. We always need the money, so I said yes. As soon as we returned to Silke Rosena, she lowered the reward to 200 gp, and was aloft with disregard for us. I tricked Indira and my minions into killing her, claiming she was intent on killing Garrick. It was over in mere seconds. She didn’t get a hit in. Heh, her weapon broke. Join the club! That was almost funny. Garrick took the whole thing extraordinarily well. He even wanted to join our party, referring to the fact that we can’t be as evil as Silke. We shooed ’im away. Furtively, I leered. The degree of evil is always underestimated, my friend, always.” ”Over at the smithy, the owner had some really nice bolts, arrows and darts, except for two extra warhammers for Anarcon and one extra mace for me. He claimed, they were magical, and Tulippa confirmed this to be true. So we blew almost 1,000 gp on missiles meant to sting a little extra. I hope it’lll pay off over time. Oh, that Silke dropped a magic staff as well, which Tulippa identified over at the Jovial Juggler as capable enough to deal damages to magically protected beings. Good find, that. Unfortunately, none of us uses it, so we’ll sell it.” Day 9, hour 4, 10 Mirtul, 1368: ”Indira had us sneak back to the smithy and loot the place. The door even stood open, and no guards. We got a magic spear and loads of weapons." "The very same night, she broke into the house of that drab elf from Candlekeep and plenty of other homes in Beregost. But finally her luck came to an end. A young lady saw her steal her hard-earned coins from the chest from her bedside. A guard rushed in, yelling that he served the Flaming Fist. Indira refused to pay, and claimed she was going to fight him, took a hit on her bowstring guard, and ran passed him, and disappeared with us into the misty morning streets." "However, we were outsmarted in that Wizard inn. Someone we learned’s named Zhurlong pickpocketed 35 gold from Indira. It was easy pickings. We can only congratulate him on his audacity. There’s no honour among thieves." "Upstairs at the inn, a man called Spen said that the Firewine Ruins is a deathrap. Sounds like our kind of place. Two room from him, on the other side of the hallway, a fantastic magic was locked inside one of the drawers. Tulippa could immediately tell it’s the infamous Stupefier! If you’re strong enough to wield it, the chances of it stunning enemies are great, and it would hit the undead and other unnatural beasts too. I am so happy that I cracked a smile straight over me face. I love this mace. Let’s discover skull trauma, ablations and lesions together, unabashedly. Around midday, we sold all our stolen weapons back to the naive smith for a hefty profit, which we used to increase our stash of magical bolts and darts. Naivety at its best. It may be raining, but the sunshine is beaming in me head.” ”A few hours later, it was almost midnight on the road through the woods south of Beregost, I had the chance to try out my new mace on two ogrillons, and it went smashingly! I had to heal Indira for a bit, as she took a punch straight to her face. Afterwards, I felt most enlightened. One of the ogrillons carried a letter by the way, but its courier, a halfling, had instead ended up as dinner for these savages. Tough luck for Mr Roe in Amn. Perhaps I’ll return it to its sender.”