IndiraLightfoot

Pendali: I'm with you 100% on this. Great example, too.

wanderon: Very true, indeed. I just held it up as a more general point, which is: Degenerative gameplay lurk around every corner, and just like you say, the RP of the individual player should be left alone. It's up to the individual playing the game to decide what's fun or reasonable or what not.

Yes, please do! Personally, I'm having a blast replaying it after all these years. EDIT: If possible, try out the BG:EE, since it's in a way an updated version of an IE game post-2010, as it were.

That's setting the bar super-duper-high! If it's better than NWN2 and BG1:EE, I'll be over the moon and beyond! EDIT: I also include the systems, the mechanics, the atmosphere, and the exploration in this assessment.

Like you, Sarex, I occupy the middle ground, with some trepidation. In the KS video - I just rewatched it, Josh is crystal clear on what he loved the most about the IE games: the story and the party-based combat, with tactical decisions on isometric maps. So far, I have very high hopes for the story and even the epicness of this low-level adventure. As for combat, most things we see now as bugged out are certainly fixable. I stamp big question marks on character development, including the diversity of classes, of builds and of exploration itself. I really keep my fingers crossed for plenty of encouragement for exploring the game, and approaching it in a more personal way, and this includes maps worthy of exploration and combat in the first place. Mind you, the beta is just a fake slice for us to test out the systems, so we have very little to go on. Finally, speaking of the systems, they haven't exactly been up to snuff through and through. Some stuff appears redundant and intricate for no real reasons. I'd simplify quite a lot of that, and move that intricacy to character development and exploration branching, encounter design, and general gameplay fun.

From the front page of OE's KS: "The Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment. Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing. At Obsidian, we have the people responsible for many of those classic games and we want to bring those games back… and that’s why we’re here - we need your help to make it a reality!" "Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success. The world map is dotted with unique locations and wilderness ripe for exploration and questing. You’ll create your own character and collect companions along the way – taking him or her not just through this story, but, with your continued support, through future adventures. You will engage in dialogues that are deep, and offer many choices to determine the fate of you and your party. …and you'll experience a story that explores mature themes and presents you with complex, difficult choices to shape how your story plays out." Interestingly, I can find a number of journalists calling it the "spiritual successors of the IE games," for instance, Eurogamer during the KS, but I haven't managed to find where OE says it will be in its KS material sep-oct 2012. Torment: Tides of Numenera is described as a spiritual successor to Planescape, even on Obsidian's KS site. Perhaps somebody here can find it. There has been some intense discussions about this, and after all, why wouldn't it be? It's the very reason why we're all here. Some are happy about PoE so far, and reckon that OE has stayed true to their goals ever since the KS, others are in the middle, saying this is only true to an extent, and then we have quite a few genuinely disappointed so far, claiming that this isn't the game they pledged for. So does Poe, so far, capture the nostalgia of the classic RPGs BG, IWD and PST? Have Josh & Co brought these games back, or have we got some new CRPG that are surprisingly different from the classics? In short, is it a spiritual successor of the IE games?

Thank you, Gorth! Having taken a break for several years from BG1+2, and then returning now, I'm just amazed how full of atmosphere and RPG-passion these games are. Their ambience is pretty magical. Sometimes, over at the PoE backer beta forums, I read about people praising IWD1 or IWD2 more, but those I have replayed pretty recently, and they merely achieve a fraction of that (well, in glimpses here and there, much more, of course). Another thing: This session has taken me 10 hours so far. Two bad (hard) fights have made party members lagging behind xp-wise, and if you look closely, you'll see that my main pc, the swashbuckler, actually levelled up after the fight with those thayan thugs. I love this aspect of the BG series. It takes ages to level up. Another thing: Except for some weird magical pants and two gimmicky belts, I have yet to acquire a magical item. Oh no, hang on, I found a third belt on that ogre, which is the only useful magical item, like I said, in 10 hours! It all strengthens the sense of achievement. It's simply brilliant. EDIT: I'm usually a completionist, so I certainly take my time playing and even re-playing CRPGs. I want to hear what the NPCs say, read all the story bits, listen to the narrator, etc. Other players probably would have done this in three hours, I'm sure.

Sensuki: Interesting. I must chip in, though, that Resolve, as a concept and an attribute, is something I really missed in D&D. It's a very cool attribute, but I agree that it's implementation is way off atm.

In the words of Indira: ”A moping man named Jopi in Friendly Arm Inn said that the roads to Baldur’s gate has been cut off, and that Dorn wanted me to fetch an ale for him, How rude! Another drunkard said that the metal in weapons and tolls are getting so bad that they break. This couldn’t explain why Poker’s axe broke, though. He had dragged that axe around everywhere for three years. It simply couldn’t take it, no more, if I would hazard a guess. Oh, and how’s this for a tall tale? Nessie, the innkeeper, claimed that the old and fortress-like setting of Friendly Arm Inn was once the hold of a powerful, undead priest of Bhaal, the god of murder, and the founders of the inn, had been adventurers like us, and vanquished him (when he got weaker by the death of his god), only to take over the place, which they turned into an establishment. A likely story.” ”Of course, we were bound to run into Khaleid and Jaheira as well. They had already figured out that Gorion was dead, and they were worried about me, as if I was a child that’s run away from home. In a twisted way, that’s almost true. They wanted to escort me to some mayor, and have me do their bidding. I have my own show to run, so I declined. It felt good seeing them wearing their disappointment on their sleeves. On the top floor of Friendy Arm Inn, Landrin insisted I do a huge favour for her. I was to get her husband’s boots, squash big spiders, and bring a wine bottle from her cellar in Beregost, in a house west of Jovial Juggler in, all for 75 gold. We are heading in that direction, though. Mayhap, we check this out; It’s very good to know that the building may be pretty empty of people, then I can swipe it clean, just like I have done in the rooms here. One foolish nobleman even gave me his golden pantaloons for free, just on the assumption, I was part of the staff. He must have been blind as a bat. In another room, I nicked a ring, which a woman named Joia in the courtyard said was hers, and she could prove it too. However, my best find was a battle axe, with an ashen haft, and treated with the same oil that Poker always insist on caring in his underwear. He didn’t show any thankfulness when I have it to him, but his twirling of his moustache increased in frequency after he had juggled it for a few minutes, so apparently the axe was good enough.” Day 4, 5 Mirtul, 1368: ”After dealing with bands of hobgoblins outside Friendly Arm Inn, we finally left that wretched place and went south again. One hour into a forest, where we followed a craggy cliff, Sparkur said he could sense something nearby, and he cast protection from evil on himself. A quarter of an hour later, the spell dissipated, and so far, we hadn’t come across anything remotely hostile in our vicinity, at least if we disregard that chipmunk that landed on Tulippa’s shoulder, which immediately began to nibble on her left earlobe. It must have been out of its wits – Tulippa, who still didn’t show any emotion, took it by one of its hind legs and discarded it, clinically, in an old stub that she jammed shut with an incantation. Bust just as we thought we were out of the woods, a huge ogre lumbered forth and grunted: ’Me smash in your face.’ Good thing that we already were on high alert. I managed to hit it first, with a well placed arrow straight into its side, whereas our elven sorceresses let it taste a dual magic missile assault, both landing nicely, straight into its hairy chest. Sparkur finished it off, two seconds later, with yet another of his lightning bolts. They still give me nightmares, but so far, out in the great outdoors, it has worked wonders. The ogre had two belts around his waist. After Tulippa had identified them as a girdle of protection vs piercing missiles and a gender bender belt. I took the former, and hid the latter. I don’t want to see any cruel pranks during our next rest.” Day 5, 6 Mirtul, 1368: ”Hours later, when we were all bushed from all xvart and gibberling ambushes, we found a child alone by a fir tree. As we approached it, the little boy threatened us with his mother belting us, and when we told him to get lost all over, he threatened us again, this time with his big brother Albert. Kids – sometimes they are quite crafty.” ”Soon thereafter, we ran into yet another courier. He was on this way to the gov of Beregost, to tell him that reinforcements are on their way to counter the imminent attack from Amn. Unfortunately, we also ran into a dire wolf that nearly killed Sparkur. Good thing he knows how to heal, even in the fray of battle. All’s well, that end’s well.” ”Finally we reached Beregost, where we were accosted by Golin Vend, who offered us a full tour of the town. We didn’t need any of that. We can help ourselves to the things we need. We went down the west end of Beregost. I left the rest of my band outside a locked house and relieved a farmer’s widow of her drab heirlooms. Then, after a nagging boy upstairs in a house by his sleeping father, where a trap almost got the better of me, I reached what I was certain must be Landrin’s homestead. I didn’t see her husband about, but the door was unlocked. I got a bit suspicious, so I had my entire band enter the premises, and wouldn’t you know it? There were a gang of gigantic spiders that had made Landrin’s place home." "It was a bitter fight, where my sorceresses dug out scrolls, which they normally loathe to do. Their magic missiles from them certainly helped, but this soon turned into a very physical struggle. Anarcon and Furia died almost on the same blink of an eye, well into the fight. It was horrific to see them succumb to the potent poison. This was a close call, and so far all we got to show for it is a spider corpse (which Landrin weirdly enough wanted to see) and in an open coffer lay those other things she wanted me to fetch: worn boots and a wine bottle. I have a feeling she wanted her husband dead. I just hope there’s more in here. I have two stone cold friends that I have to resurrect somehow, and I have a feeling it will be dire costs and heavy lifting involved.” ”At the Jovial Juggler, a drunk dwarf lamented his loss of a magic cloak in Cloakwood. Funny, but not funny enough to laugh at and then get killed by that mad Gurke. I was selling stuff there. And a fellow named Bjornin had been punished hard by a mean band of half-ogres in the mountains to the south-west, and would be happy if we could avenge him. Not in this sad state, we can. To make matters worse, in a house I had planned robbing, Firebead Elvenhair occupied! And he wanted us to buy a book in a shop around here, and he would reimburse us more if we deliver it to him. As much as we detest books, the hope of profit is certainly alluring.” ”To ponder over his offer, I went for a drink in Feldepost’s Inn, just across the street, and by the weirdest of co-incidences, the bartender had the very book Elvenhair wanted, and for a mere 3 gp at that. I have a feeling Firebead knew about that all along. He’s far too good for his own good. Meanwhile, a tipsy noblewoman flirted with Sparkur, now, that’s a first! Soon, however, a ghastly dwarf by the name of Marl, began pestering us. I said that the bar fit all of us. He kept on going, though. He said he hated adventurers like us. Well, I said we’re making things right too, in between and the looting and the killing. Apparently, he had lost his son, who went out adventuring. I didn’t care. I said that everyone goes their own path. I won’t be held accountable for what fate deals. I added that the lad probably just followed his own calling. Then some sloshed man supported me. I didn’t have more time for this, so I bought the piss-ants something to drink, and that made them all go soft and cheer for his son Kenneth. Too bad Furia and Anarcon are lying dead outside. They missed quite a moment there, instead of just having flies for company.” ”In Kagain’s shop, we found a man to our liking. He would pay us a lot of gold for us serving as his mercenaries, protecting his deliveries from bandits, and to find Etan’s son. Unfortunately, we hadn’t the time to get to know him better. We left with regret, and then went to give that dizzy elf his coin tome. He was happy enough. Just the scroll case alone made it all worth it.” ”Then I took care of the awfully arduous journey back to Friendly Arm Inn. It took 10 hours, and the stench from Furia and Anarchon in particular was horrific! Thankfully, the fee at the temple of wisdom were the same as in Candlekeep. They must have a cartel going. It took quite some time, so I returned all the stuff to Landrin, who was suspiciously happy for the things I fetched. No word about her husband, a fine widow maker, that. That rest at the inn was the best so far.” Day 8, hour 6, Mirtul 9, 1368: ”After half a day, all six of us could return to Beregost to pick up where we left the thread earlier. We hadn’t alked many steps when a cheeky girl named Neera all of the sudden step into our midst and says she’s one of us! One second later, a convoy of deep-browed men demand that we move aside, so that they could take her. When he heard, we couldn’t trade her in for gold, we refused, and then they attacked. The skirmish had barely begun when Anarchon’s warhammer snapped." "Anarchon simply swapped over to a morning star and yawned: ’Go on then.’ It was an easy fight, Ekandor and those thayan thugs went down without any real struggle. Neera was very sorry afterwards. She had no money to offer us for our expedient service, though. It turned that she was nothing but a wild mage. At least, it’s much better than a wizard. So, we let her off the hook, this time.”

PJ: I knew it! You are a robot, admit it!

A few friends of mine are Scottish ex-pats, and they have convinced me that it probably would work pretty well with an independent Scotland. The hard thing, of course, is to know if it's the best thing to do - their bonds with England and Wales are pretty strong, to put it mildly. The lack of a military could become a bit tricky, but since Scotland has nothing on the UK population-wise, and with them having a few gas and oil fields with increasing revenues, it is plausible, but perhaps foolish. Scotland apparently has a lower debt-to-GDP ratio than the UK as a whole too, and the Scots put in more in tax into the UK public spending than what they got in return (slightly). Financially, Scotland certainly measures up compared to other pretty successful nations in the EU, and both productivity and employment are looking brighter in the long run.

I have simple RPG needs: -Let to-hit rolls have an element of randomness in them -Let damage have an even bigger element of randomness. Rinse and repeat... Why would anyone even change this formula? It's like ripping out the aorta of combat in many PnP RPGs.

Obviously, I'm teasing a bit here, but it's because I really wanted to drive my point (and prodigydancer's, I believe) home, that "degenerate gameplay" isn't as useful for game design as we think it is. First and foremost in a game comes fun, varied and engaging gameplay, and there will be logical flaws in such gameplay, always.

PJ: It does arise from systemic features: quest xp. The player that has her/his driud doing that just for completing the quest and getting its xp would be just as involved in "degenerative gameplay" as a player that plays BG1 and follow baddies before the story etc in order to get kill xp, since there's a choice not to take the egg, no?

Hiro: That would be a very nice example of degenerative gameplay. In fact, every druid taking that egg and earning quest xp for it is an act of degenerate gameplay. prodigydancer had some important points in his list about "degenerate gameplay", and If I may add to those, most successful games, and this definitely includes CRPGs, like BG, PST and NWN2: MotB, have plenty of degenerative gameplay that never was intentional, but when taken together, the overall effect was improved gameplay and more fun. Sometimes the sum of a game's parts manage to the exceed the whole of it, and then it somehow outdoes itself and become magical. Often, these magical boosters in CRPGs come about from devs trying something out for the first time. This goes for BG, PST and MotB. In short, flaws can be blessings, and degenerate gameplay isn't an exception to this. There is nothing objective about art, and I consider game-making and CRPGs to be art.

PJ: I know this is an area where don't exactly have the same view on what makes a CRPG fun, hehe. Dice rolls are one of my main fun ingredients in these types of games, as you know, and flat numbers, while making sense systemically, logically, and for transparent systems, are inherently boring in a CRPG. The excitement of seeing if you are lucky or not - the Casino effect - is very powerful and addictive to many people. Will I hit or not? Will I even get in a critical? Will my d6 fireball roll for 36 in damage or a paltry 6? Also, it can really be argued it's part of a RPG tradition (PnP), as well as in the IE games as a whole. EDIT: And most importantly, I almost forgot, it enhances replayability big time, heck, even reloads, coz every fight will be different.

reavor: Unlike you, I hope they also listen to those that have played these games for decades, since some of their knowledge and experience may be worth something,. While lots of stuff in the IE games are praised a bit too much, it is not unduly praised, and most important of all, there is no such ting as an objective discussion on what was good or not in the IE games, or even less so, regarding what works best or not in PoE, especially since anything new introduced has per definition never been tried before, so there can only be qualified guesses and high hopes if it will work or not. Furthermore, with the beta, we're seeing plenty of new stuff being introduced, which clearly isn't working very well at all. EDIT: A simple way to look at the OE kickstarter is to claim outright, they sold PoE to us, and we swallowed it, hook, line and sinker, with nostalgia. However, that stuff, that "nostalgia" that so many people scoff at, is also, for real: absolute classics of CRPGs. In fact, they are the best ever made CRPGs according dozens of polls and game journalists votes over more than a decade now. Even, if they were not perfect - they were still amazingly good.

Unsurprisingly, most people in favour of more conservative adaptations of "IE spirituality" are more well-versed with this type of games: -They know what they like -they know what works or not -Their opinions can always be backed up by real, existing examples taken from IE games. Other people, who are in favour of a new CRPG, preferably far from any of the IE games, have a much harder time. They just know that they want something else, because they didn't like X, Y, and Z in those IE games (some of them have perhaps never played them, or just one or two of them). As a result, they get very stressed out by all the criticisms from IE veterans that we see on these forums, and then they get defensive or annoyed. If I generalize hard, we have great posters like PrimeJunta, Karkarov and Elerond, who really do enjoy PoE as a new take on the whole CRPG-thing, and they know how to defend it (usually, hehe). PoE, as seen in all the updates and in this beta, still is quite a bit like the IE games in spirit: scope, stats, combat, music, isometric style, party-based, but if you scratch under the surface, much stuff has changed. It takes courage to defend these new things, it's a bit like ad-libbing when going up on a stage, doing a performance. Guys like me, although I'm pretty moderate, have entire libraries of old rule books, decades of traditions, and entire games, behind us.

There have been plenty of threads on this before the beta. Attrubutes in an RPG are always tricky, especially the role-playing aspect of it. Disredarding if the attributes are fitting for creating a character, I'd much rather see the attributes, regardless of what they are and how they are defined, as important and carrying a lot of weight, systemically, story-wise. Right now in Poe, they are not, that's not worthy of a RPG, IMHO. Back to the attributes themselves. Overall, I have come to accept them, like I've said earlier. They are different from my beloved D&D, but they are actually similar to other fantasy genres. Even the seemlingly weird Might attribute, which now contains magic damage and healing, on top of physical power (cf. The Last Airbender). Right now, I find Perception to be the most boring of them all. It should be covered by Intelligence and Dexterity, more or less. Resolve, I absolutely love, especially in the context of "enduring pain and punishment", "withstanding ill effects", almost like a will check or something.

Sarex: I haven't thought of that. Perhaps it's true. At least, since the beta started, posts delivering criticisms, regardless of tone, have been treated harshly, and those playing bash-a-mole with those rarely contain counterarguments or such stuff. Luckily, there are exceptions to this pattern.

I reckon, Wanderon's description of these forums and other game forums are pretty accurate, and your counterpoint, Sarex, is equally, valid. One thing is not correct, though. I'd say that merely 10-20 % is constructive criticism in average if look at it post by post and count them all individually.

I envy you, Kronos, immensely! This is your broad stroke necessity, and just one thing. This game's already, like, made for you. You wouldn't be Josh Sawyer's mum, by any chance? I keed, I keed...

I was being pretty serious! Well, one area it is, then. Surprisingly, perhaps, but I'll go for exploration and encounter design, including its reward incentives.

Yes, please!!! And the combat log should give info that's more than "glancing blow", but immediately say "The deflection of Indira Lightfoot's opponent is almost unbreachable. Please, consider changing your combat tactics."

Perfecting its status a "spiritual successor of the IE games".