IndiraLightfoot

Ridiculous far-sight fog of war, intellect granting BS ability durations... I agree 100% May I add that the default main colour of party members should not only be readily visible in the combat log, but also govern the colour of their marker circles, like in BG:EE. It works wonders when playing that game - a real improvement (only problem if you pick red, since the enemy circles are red - also clear yellow, and cloud blue for neutral NPC can be problematic).

Bizarre fact: Here are a number of countries that have lower yearly revenues than what Microsoft bought Mojang/Minecraft for: -Uganda -Madagascar -Nicaragua -Cambodia -Kosovo -Monaco -Afghanistan

“An update is never late, nor is it early. It arrives precisely when it's meant to."

It's confirmed! Microsoft has bought Mojang (Minecraft) for 2.5 billion dollars. The founders of Mojang, including Notch, are leaving the company. Wow! They'll sure get even richer.

That's not the problem health/stamina is intended to solve. Priest as strategic healing resource, remember? You are probably right, but what was the problem that the health/stamina division aimed to solve then? And are maims sort of PoE's version of Fatigue, or is it another beast entirely? (Off topic, I know, I'm just curious. I have a hunch it has something to do with healing during combat and in-between encounters.)

Ahem! Technically speaking, even the original BG was made for this and all of these slow-paced rewards are its very nice way of solving it, depending on how many you have in your party. I have the manual here on a book shelf. "In a multiplayer game, between one and six players may adventure together, cooperatively controlling both created characters and NPC's that join the party. The leader is the player who has control over such things as who can join, what kinds of characters can be brought into the game, and what abilities the players who are in the game actually have (in terms of gameplay – see Permissions, below). The leader can control one or more characters in the game." p.29. "Party Gold: Just as in the single player game, all gold is shared between the members of the party. Shared Experience: Just as in the single player game, all characters in the party share in the awarding of experience points." P.34 Hence, it was all by design from the very beginning. This slow pacing occur for all parties with six members in them, and I love it. At page 29, there is also btw, Fatigue in BG: "Fatigue: A character can continue to operate at peak efficiency for 24 hours game time (2 hours real time). After that the characters will start to complain, and the characters’ attributes begin to go down. For every 4 hours beyond this 24-hour mark the player will receive a -1 luck penalty (-1 to all of his rolls). As soon as the character rests all penalties will disappear." Perhaps that kind of Fatigue would suffice, instead of that health/stamina-thingie?

1) The more staggered levelling, the better! 2) Sensuki put one concern of mine to rest, that quest xp rewards are too high, but I'm still worried that for players beelining the quests, sneaking passed enemies (like Hiro plans to do, hehe), they'll reach levels much faster than in BG. Obviously, with meta-knowledge and a total disregard for roleplaying, you can level up rather fast in BG too. 3) What I meant was rather, you won't get any xp at all, by doing what I described above, which will be slower than beelining main quest lines and beelining side quest lines. In addition, there is this big deal for me - where you can no longer "press on" with fallen party members (it's been replaced with maiming and some stamina-loss hiccups) - there are no RPG reasons for it, nor any level progression differentiation reasons.

Sensuki: That's at least good news. However, the lack of incentives for playing on with dead characters is gone, and no mechanics are in to ensure a varied level progression, especially such that it rewards party members individually and differently over playthroughs, over play sessions. Reloads won't change a thing as far as levelling progression is concerned. LP is almost a meta system, a bit like those teachers in M&M, for instance. I reckon, lots of levelling pacing and RPG fun are recklessly lost by not accommodating for this.

Hi! I'd love to hear what you guys want to see in PoE as far as levelling pacing goes, which obviously is a matter of when, where and how often your characters develop during the game. I'm playing through BG:EE right now, after quite a few years absence from that classic CRPG, and one thing has already struck me as absolutely fantastic about that 16 year old game: its slow and varied levelling pacing. For instance, in my playthrough, I opted to roll up a party of six adventures via multiplayer, and after 26 hours of gameplay I still had one party member that was level 1. No, this is not a typo, it was still level one - a frail magic user, at that! Some of you young 'uns may perhaps think "The horror! Boredom!" But I rejoice over it, and I am having a blast at this slow pace. After having experienced this in BG1, I then compare this with what we now about PoE, and I have some concerns: When do level-up occur for each and every party member? BG1: It is varied, since you get tiny lumps of xp for every encounter (on rare occasions bigger sums for really tough encounters) + skill checks like open locks and disarm traps. If one of your party members didn't kill something, or even worse, if it died in battle during each encounter, the xp goes to other members in the party. This even includes quest xp: If one or more in your gang are dead, they don't get the xp, unless they have been rezzed, obviously. The RPG dynamics of this is great. Also, you get a levelling that is scarce, desynchronized and varied for every replay, or even for every reload. PoE: There are no resurrections, so level progression will never vary just because someone his dead. All you can do is either reload and "save" that party member/companion, or you don't, but then that party member will never see xp or level progression again. It's gone. Moreover, there are no micro-increment xp, only a few points along quest lines, where the party gets xp to share. And Josh has said that having less party members only boost quest xp by 5 % or so. One differentiating thing, however, still exists in PoE - if you leave one of your adventurers at some inn, then you go and collect the quest xp with the rest of your party, the ditched adventurer won't get any xp. Other than that, level progression is a synchronized event, and after having played the beta, if you follow the quest lines, levelling up will go considerably faster than in BG1, and if you don't follow the quest lines seemingly nice and very slow (but without desynchronized levelling) - however with one caveat: no xp at all for side quests, whereas level progression will still occur for the main quest lines, since otherwise the entire game will grind to a halt. Summary: What is lost in PoE? -All character development is a matter of party-synchronized quest triggers, your individual party members/companions won't stand out as different in the process of levelling. There will be a few pay-days, so levelling up is something you do in bulk. - There are no rewards for roleplaying those situations where someone in your party dies, but you bravely carry on, just to see if you can make it back alive to some healer in a temple. Nor does any levelling progression reflect that effort on the player's behalf. Only reloading remains as an option. -Levelling progression will be too fast if you follow quest lines -Players skipping side quests, or doing encounters without touching NPC and other stuff that trigger quest nodes, will level up much slower, or rather, this is not counted as progress. Not even this will make the levelling progression desynchronized for any in-party RPG purposes.

Just a simple fact that may be hard to sink in for any younger CRPG lovers out there: Furia was the last member of my party reaching level 2, and that after 26 hours of real-time playing. What kind of game would dare do something like that nowadays?

Day 15, hour 15, 16 Mirtul, 1368 In Indira’s words: ”We were on our way to the Nashkel mines, when we were waylaid by enemies. Senjak, a bandit leader, was intent on robbing us dry. He had a slick assistant in the form of an elf, Dorotea, who wanted to kill us in a specific order, beginning with the uncivilized and eding with the well-mannered. I ordered my party to show them what the phrase ’the tables have turned’ means. However, before we even could cheek-slap them, a half-orc began to mow those archers down like a merciless scythe of death. Luckily for us, he apparently had a bone to pick with Dorotea and Senjak. They’d left him – Dorn - to rot in a Luskan prison, on the advice of some Simmeon. Then everything went fast. Frail Tulippa went down after a few swift cuts at Senjak’s venomous blade. Furia and Anarcon took care of the two brigand archers that were left by the bluff. I, Sparkur and Poker took on Senjak and Dorotea, while Dorn back-stabbed them. It was over-pretty quick, but Tulippa needs to be resurrected at the temple of Helm in Nashkel. This has become a bad habit of hers.” ”After the skirmish, we sent Dorn off and backtracked to the mining town with an entire wagon full of bandit loot, with Tulippa thrown on top, like a big blueberry on a ginger pie. The curmudgeon in a priest robe charged twice as much for bringing back Tulippa. That certainly had our pouches wrung, but later on, when Tulippa had came to, she found a magical shield for Sparkur and an equally magical weird eastern scimitar, so everyone were all smiles again.” Day 17, 18 Mirtul, 1368: ”We reached the mines just after midnight, and the first warehouse seemed like a good place to rest, so we opened the mouldy door, only to be assaulted by three rabid war dogs that already occupied the building for some tucker and a catnap. They got their rest alright, their final rest. Among the scurrying rats, a few emaciated miners were working in the wee hours. Their leader, Emerson, didn’t like having us around, and said we’d got one day, thereafter they’d dig a shaft for us and bury us alive in it. Nice welcome! The entrance to the mines were guarde by three tired Amnian soldiers, wishing us an ironic ’good luck’.” ”The few miners inside warned us of little devils and demons, and they were certain we’d die down there. Miner Dilak was certain we would die like the rest of several adventurers that had sought out to destroy the evils down below. Miner Marvin was coughing up blood and rambling on about haunted tunnels. Miner Bob took the cake, claiming there was a dragon down there, a story that gor Furia all worked up. We’ve begin the descent into the mines, and so far it seems to be kobolds that the miners have mistaken for ’devils’. Some of them carry weird bottles with a mysterious liquid inside.” ”One day and dozens of dead kobolds later, at least, we crossed a scarily deep chasm, and on the other side, more dogs with swords and archers ambushed us, and by a small subterranean pond, a hideous ghoul gnawed on a few kobold bones. In a cavern not far from that horror, a couple of huge death spiders injected poison into Sparkur. I had to toss him the only antidote we had. At death’s door, that potent mixture thankfully worked. Far from gracefully, Poker and Anarcon squashed those oversized bugs flat.” ”Another floor deeper, the entrance to which was protected with traps galore, inside a cramp cavern system nestled in the middle of an underwater lake, we were startled. On the cold, damp floors, exquisite fabrics, mats and pillows were strewn. A manic half-orc deity servant named Mulahey thought we’ve been sent by some traitorous Tazok, and then let through by the kobolds, but we said we’re there by our own accord. At that reply, he ’went crazier than a diseased gibberling with fire up his arse’ – those were Furia’s exact words. And indeed, he was a crazy necromancer, and he called forth skeletal minions, supported by plenty of spasmic kobolds, high on beetle juice and stupidity.” ”One by one, my friends fell victim to the necromancer’s vile little army in this terrible ordeal. In the end, merely Sparkur and I were left standing. In a moment of weakness, I let the madman go. Bad mistake." " He just snuck away, began to quibble with another person present there, and then turned on ous again, with even more kobolds on his side, this time. I honestly thought Sparkur and I would draw our last breaths in that bizarre grotto, but then I remembered my new-won draining power, and I used on the necromancer to a deadly effect.” ”Inside Mulahey’s chest there was an elven dagger that refused to be held. All I heard was a name whispered: Xan. In addition to that and a note mentioning a contact at Feldepost’s Inn (Tranzig), the ornate container revealed several potions and scrolls. In a stalagmite-infested cavern at the back, I met the person Mulahey talked to earlier: Xan himself. He thanked me for my rescue, I made an ill-timed joke about piercers, and then he left, taking back his dagger in silence. I dared not stop him. Strangely, the same dagger re-appeared in Mulahey’s chest, but I left it there for now.” ”Sparkur and I dragged ourselves and our dead band members all the way back up the mine levels, greeted by a much merrier Emerson, and then we managed to return to Nashkel without running into more bandits. Glad we had that wagon, otherwise we wouldn’t been able to haul back the bodies of our friends to the temple. Oublek wasn’t happy, though. I had bounties to turn in, but was denied payment because of my scam last time. If I hadn’t saved the town, he’d thrown me into prison, no doubt.” ”I was relieved to see that all four of our band were revivable. And with Tulippa back, she could go through all the magical items that the necromancer had. His ring was very interesting: It made him get more clerical spells per day, and Sparkur got test it, and it works for him as well! For all her efforts, knowledge and lore revelations, we gave Tulippa a pair of boots of grounding." "Unfortunately, she didn’t take much more than 100 steps in her new shoes before a very able assassin named Nimbul attacked us on the fly. Apparently, Tazok had sent him to hunt us down. Yet again, like a bad deja-vu, only Sparkur and I survived the onslaught of spells. We tried to flee into Nashel Inn, but Nimbul followed us there. So, I had to use my last resort, a potion of invisibility, while Sparkur crushed our near-to-be nemesis with his punishing mace of stunning. It was very hairy, so back to the temple we go. Lovely.” Day21, 22 Mirtul, 1368: ”After almost a day’s rest, and after hours upon hours listening to Poker lamenting his lost axe in the mines, I still recall my last sleep with unease. I dreamt that I was back in the mine tunnels, slaughtering kobolds, standing over Mulahey again, with a strange bone dagger as company. It soon turned into a skeletal hand, and a disembodied voice said that I should use my powers, and that my heart is not my weak spot. Interestingly, I did use my power to end Mulahey’s life, and after I did so, I have now the ability to use it even more. This dream had me forcing my party going down the mines one more time, not just to fetch Xan's dagger and all the bulky items Sparky and I hid in Mulahey’s ornate chest, but in order to check if something weird awaited me down there. Sadly, it didn’t result in anything more than a spike trap that pierced Furia’s pinky-toe and an encounter with two grey oozes that were immune to even Sparkur’s bolt of lightning. I nearly died from their loving embraces.”

Sensuki, Yes, please lobby hard for Josh making distributing attributes as tough as possible for as many and varied builds as possible!

IRL, absolutely! Iin a fantasy setting, playing heroic figures, that logic ought to dissipate considerably. It's not even simulationist anyway. If an enemy has super-high DT, the fight can go on and on and on. My record is 20 minutes (prolly a bug), but those guards didn't faint from exhaustion, and nor did my characters. And how fun would it be if a few misses (just as exhausting as hits) led to your hero lying there on the cave floor, dripping in sweat and drowning in degradation?

"Power nap" indeed! I do mind that heroes get KO's from exhaustion, it just doesn't fit the genre. This isn't the Sims, where your "toons" wet themselves or faint if not pampered properly.

Some intermittent remarks: How can a game that's over 15 years old be this good? I'm stunned and stupefied - like when finding that stupefying mace!! I mean, I've played it several years back, and then far too many times, but it still feels fresh and rewarding, even the story. Having replayed PST and half of IWD2 in recent years, I must say, this game wins hands down. I admit that the battles are slightly more challenging at the start of IWD2, and a few times later in the game, but atmosphere, fantastic backgrounds, free-roaming exploration, fantastic NPC, all make up for that in spades! My own "house rules" for this playthrough is... -If one or more party members die I have to keep on going -No reloads to regret bad convo decisions, purchases, losses of items (for instance, at the smithy, I bought a composite longbow for 150 gp, but my character couldn't use it) -I can only "re-roll" (reload) level-up hit points two times -If my main dies, I get to reload the latest save (It hasn't happened yet, but it sure will!)

I agree that numbers are more intuitive and clear, so health would benefit from being displayed as a number. And perhaps we should say "Endurance" from now on: May main gripe about Endurance is that it's a bit silly in combat. let's say you get into a tough and prolonged fight, and your Endurance dwindled to the point where it reaches zero, Health will remain (it's multipliers of Endurance, so unless you're damaged badly, you will fall unconscious and basically faint from exhaustion in the midst of battle). I don't like that fainting, it's far too simulationist to me and not a very fun thing to include in a game. "Oh no, my character got so tired that he fainted! Look, he's snoring on the battlefield." Very few CRPGs have included that kind of thing. Exhaustion is a boring mechanic, in line with the need for your hero to go the bathroom, or with having them sleep-deprived if they don't nap regularly, or with forcing them to eat and drink often enough. It also becomes awkward in the combat situation itself. What to do with a character that fainted from exhaustion? Will it lie there, like foes subjected to the Sleep spell in D&D? Is it just one hit from a kill then, like a coup de grace? Or is it like it is now in PoE, almost a Sanctuary spell? Real fantasy heroes don't faint from exhaustion, not even the hobbits in LotR! Also, I don't want to see those super-high D3 health numbers. At least hide them then under the hood, and show us a fifth of them or something in the number displayed in the UI. Finally, Endurance and Constitution are two RPG concepts that easily can get confused. No need for both of them in a CRPG, IMHO. I'd much rather see that Endurance gets turned into Fatigue, which results in lower DT, harder to-hit-rolls, and weaker damage if you land a hit, to mention a few possibilities. In this way, Fatigue and interesting Maims, will still satisfy any simulationist effects that the game may or may not need. If we'd settle with Fatigue, it would need proper feedback on that in the UI, and including the combat log, but it won't be a number on the character portrait. Rather, it would be cool if the portrait looked weak, like in M&M X (just kidding, OTT). But some Fatique icon would suffice, showing that the character is subject to Fatigue, that's all.

Bryy: Small world. Day 14, 15 Mirtul, 1368: In Sparkur’s words: ”From Beregost we ventured east, where the talk of the town lay – a big carnival. We shoved aside clinging and brusque performers by some stands and a stage. Next to sages and readers, we can’t think of anything worse. If I hear another poem about Nosferatu, I’ll flash some teeth! The first tent we saw, we entered. Inside was a merchant from foreign lands." "He told us about the metal corrosion, and he also let us buy two potions that supposedly respectively enhance your strength and intelligence permanently. For 50 gp a piece, it was worth the risk. If he lied, we could always come back and liquidate him and his store. He wasn’t lying. Rather the potions were extremely potent, Tulippa told us. For instance, the red potion, would make you the smartest person alive for one full day, and with a huge magic resistance, but at the same time weak and unwise. He had more potions in one of his chests, with an emphasis on ’had’. The lock on the other chest, Indira couldn’t pick this time.” ”For such a talked about carnival, there are very few attendants. One visitor, Lestor, said it’s all due to the mines, where people work and die at more or less an industrial level. In another tent, a few customers endulged themselves on the black lotus, not a bad pastime at all. Oh, a mysterious man called Zeke waved us closer. He showed us an old stone statue of a female warrior. He claimed that he had a scroll that would remove the spell that had petrified the woman. He wanted 500 gp for it. I thought it was preposterous, but Indira and the sorceresses thought otherwise. They went ahead and bought the thing. I was furious, but Indira read the scroll, and to my great astonishment, the statue came alive before our very eyes. She clearly spoke her tongue in an ancient way. Her name was Branwen, a war-priest from Norheim Isles. Almost every tent contained a merchant and shelves and chests to rake. Unfortunately, Poker bumped into some weapon table in one of them, and two Amnian guards from the Council of Six lifted their weapons against us, at which I just happened to expunge the rash words: ’Die, scum’. We had no chance and fled out of a flapping canvas. One of the merchant tents in the centre had somebody buying magical elixirs. We made a small fortune on those, thanks to Tulippa’s knowledge. We even sold the powerful potions we just bought and made a nice profit.” ”In yet another tent, we caught Zordral, an evil mage, just about to kill a woman, Bentha. He even declared as much! I told the woeful bozo to stop. The world would be better off with him dead instead, so we can take his precious belongings. There was no time preventing him to kill Bentha. He cast mirror image, and then followed up with a panic spell that made Poker run around like a beheaded chook. After overcoming plenty of illusions and dodging magic missiles and other nefarious spells, we managed to take Zordral down. Indira hit him with both her swords, and that was enough to wipe that smug smile off his face. Bentha seems to have been a wizard as well. They both left behind magical robes that fit Furia and Tulippa perfectly.” ”Our celebration at the gambling tent tavern was dampened by a master pickpocket, Vitiare, who stole 100 gp from Anarcon. We have to get back on him for that, one day or another. In the forest north of the carnival, we heard bear-like grunts. Just as we were thinking about how much a bear-belt could be, an enormous ogre rushed towards us. He’s mouth was foaming, and his movements were twitchy and relentless. We countered this threat with our outdoor routine. A few shots, two magic missiles and my bolt of lightning. When the ogre had been softened up, we all approached it with weapons drawn, and just chopped it to death. That ogre was pretty flush.”

With a new attribute system in place, where each attribute truly matters, they can now be tweaked and changed by the devs. Personally, I'd love to see attributes that have stronger effects on our builds. Ninja'd by Sensuki.

You made such an irrefutable case, though! And like PrimeJunta has written elsewhere, as soon as Josh joins the board, asks us questions and invites to come up with suggestions, the forum spirits are lifted exponentially.

Sensuki & Matt: I really liked the end of your pdf as well, wrapping up with seeds of improvement to PoE's combat feedback system and possible UI changes. Now, if you're up to the task, your next mission will be: -Make the combat, including actions taken, recovery times, easy to follow and a joy to play and react upon -Make hits and crits more exciting events, and make them clear-cut (E.g. Do we need constant glancing blows spamming the combat log?) -Solve the combat pacing, ranged and melee, and both for pause-a-lots and non-stop-players -Find ways to deflate the numbers involved in the combat mechanics, hide what you need to hide under the hood, and leave us with numbers that we can handle. This message will self-destruct in five seconds.

Just some food for thought, and for Josh & Co in particular: Sensuki & Matt's attribute system is a dream for any game dev team aiming for balance that is not "banalce". When I see the attributes now, in their version of them, I really like them all - they all feel meaty and worth picking - and I can't wait to try out dozens of builds using them in various interesting combos. So, when finally deciding on the definitions of the attributes for PoE, this aspect should take precedence: Each and every attribute should be so attractive that character creation becomes a nailbiter of a process, where each attribute kept low would feel like a sacrifice of some kind, almost regardless of build. As the SensMatt attribute system stands right now, it actually achieves this balancing act. Any changes to it, should match the overall attractiveness of those attributes.

First of all, Sensuki and Matt, a big cyberhug from me for a job well done!! Btw, how does it feel to have gotten your OP marked as "popular" with a big star on it? Now, that's a first on these forums! I have read your .pdf-file and I am now ready to answer your questions: 1. 2. 3. I can't really fault it in any way, and one of the posters (I have read the entire thread) captures my sentiments the best: Personally, I'd love to keep it as is. But, Josh's suggestions make sense too. Still, your solution is simply more elegant and it would make sense RPG-wise in non-combat situations too.

I'd love to have that option as well. She's a very interesting deity.

Panteleimon: I'd love to see a tonne of out-of-combat spells (and talents and skills)! Let me put it this way, since I have played the cipher too, and seen vids of the chanter being played - if you add up all the spell-like abilities for those four caster schools it doesn't add up to the cleric selection at level 7, perhaps not even level 5, of 3.5 D&D. I even doubt that quartet can measure up to the BG:EE AD&D selection, for instance. It would be very nice to see more combat spells too.

The spell selection for clerics and wizards/magic-users by the levels 5 to 8 is pretty big in the IE games, at least BG1 and ToEE. Cleric is one of my favourite classes, and right now the PoE verision (the priest) feels extremely limited in comparison.