Hiro Protagonist II

After looking at the BB Priest spells after I posted that response and unless Obsidian nerfs buffs to oblivion, I can't see buffs lasting 10 seconds on max resolve of 21. It wouldn't make any sense to do so. You'd get maybe one or two hits on the enemy and the buff would be gone. So it would be better to use specific spells and their durations from the beta. As I pointed out before, a lot of BB Priest buff spells are around the 37.5 second mark and a couple up to 75 seconds. I'd assume these spells would have a longer duration if you maxed out Resolve with a player created Priest, but I've never tried creating a priest.

There were a lot of instances where I casted buff spells in combat with the IE games. Negative plane protection is one because it has a very quick casting time (it's almost instantaneous) and very short duration. It was better to cast it after combat started than prior to it. So it wasn't all rote pre-buffing. There were benefits waiting for combat to begin to cast your buff spells. Uomoz, could be useful without his usual distorted hyperbolic examples.

1. It hasn't reduced the severity or impact of the problem. This encourages players to go on kill sprees early in the game to get those bestiary pages when you really need xp to level up. And having trash mobs with trash loot that you can ignore later because you already got the kill xp in the form of bestiary pages earlier? Yep, I'll ignore half this map, I'll save all my resources and won't worry about the trash loot from these trash mobs because I already have the kill xp earlier. And they pose no danger to me because I've ignored them. What wonderful game design. 2. So you admit there isn't a problem with going back and killing quest givers. One of the arguments that keeps getting brought up is now not a problem anymore. Good to see. 3. Bestiary xp is kill xp. No matter how you try and deny it, it's always going to be kill xp. And this is especially important early in the game when you want to level up. Also, if you're close to levelling up, you can go off and grind some critters and get the kill xp in the form of bestiary pages before you tackle that enemy boss. Ah, yes. Sees enemy boss, looks at character sheet, very close to levelling up, decides to go grind some kill xp and get some bestiary pages. Levels up, goes back to boss a level higher. It hasn't mitigated the problem at all. 4. Well you have no evidence and I debunked your posts with the Fighter. In fact, your evidence supports everything I have said about the PoE Fighter. The fact is you assumed the fighter would be something else despite all the updates to the contrary. You have no evidence and you're argument has no merit or validity. And as I pointed out, you do have a habit of liking certain people's posts without actually digesting what the person is actually saying. My arguments weren't debunked at all. But it's okay PrimeJunta, keep believing what you want. The Backer updates are there for all to see and the PoE fighter fits the updates to a tee. The updates you AGREED with over the course of the development. No point trying to say the updates mean something else. Ciao.

I don't have a personal problem with you. I'm just showing how some people will argue obstinately for the last couple of years about something and then once the beta is out and actually experience what you've been championing for, to see how wrong you and these people were and how they flip-flop over issues. And then argue for things they were originally against. Also the old, 'you're not worth talking to' but then you go on with addressing my points. I do understand what it means though. Which is why it doesn't mitigate the grind xp. The grind xp is still there. In fact, I would say it encourages players to grind xp with kills to get those bestiary pages. Heck even the objective xp during quests don't seem to be enough if Obsidian has to now throw in kill xp in the form of bestiary pages. Hang on. You're conveniently ignoring one of those suggestions I gave. Kill the quest giver, get no xp and get a reputation hit. There are many ways to stop players going back. But lets forget about that shall we? No you want to keep repeating the same arguments. No, I'm not contradicting myself at all. Might help to learn to read. At the moment, there is no kill xp in the game so I ignore the spiders in the Ogre cave except for two that you have to fight to get to the Ogre. If there is bestiary pages in the final game and I already have those bestiary pages with the spiders (from other encounters), then I'm still going to ignore the rest of them because I already have the kill xp. Therefore half the map will go unexplored because I see no point in wasting resources (health, per rest spells) for trash mobs and trash loot. There's possibly a good chance I've already grinded that kill xp to get those bestiary pages elsewhere in the game. And I've already pointed out that you are wrong, you jump to conclusions before you digest what it is you're reading (see below with liking Josh's posts), you've made up this stuff in your head of what a Fighter should or could be in your own perceived way, disregarding the ORIGINAL VISION and DESIGN as well as interpreting all the updates with your own incorrect assumptions. And this text doesn't refute my point, it actually reinforces it with another post I've already pointed out to you. You're reading things that aren't there whereas I can grab the PoE Fighter and fit it into all that you've quoted. And I already have but you choose to ignore it. If you want to bury your head in the sand and go 'na na na', then by all means, but it doesn't refute anything or the ORIGINAL VISION and DESIGN. I also think people like yourself will throw themselves at Josh's posts by 'liking' them without even thinking about what he's actually saying. You even admit that you were hasty after I pointed it out. And that truly baffles me. It comes across as when Josh speaks, it makes people like youf warm and fuzzy inside and who cares what he's actually talking about. Check out the beta. The BB Priest has quite a few buff spells. Mouse over them and look at the duration. Thank you for coming.

Feigned ignorance is also bad form. Or are you just that forgetful you can't remember what you post. It doesn't mitigate the grind xp. If I know I can go to this cave, this cliff face and this other place and can get xp by killing critters, level up and then tackle a boss, you won't think I won't do it? And the same with other players? Checks character sheet, nearly levelled up. Goes off to grind xp, kills a whole heap of critters, receives kill xp bestiary pages, levels up and then goes to tackle the boss. Seriously. The IE games had unkillable NPCs. And some walked away and disappeared. You now have a problem with this? NPCs walking away and disappearing out of a door? Also, I gave other suggestions for not going back and killing quest givers. Kill a quest giver, receive no xp and take a reputation hit. No problem with that. It's not clever and it is shoddy. Bestiary xp is a shoddy implementaion of kill xp, a poor halfway measure to appease the kill xp crowd. It also comes across as a poor bribe to get people into combat instead of leaving maps half unexplored due to no xp rewards in going to the other end of the map and engaging in combat. The Ogre cave is one example where I only engage two spiders to get to the Ogre and I leave the rest of the spiders alone. The rewards are poor if I do engage them and I lose resources like health as well as possible per rest abilities and spells. The same with Dyrford Crossing. I leave half the beetles alive, the wolves can keep their shelter in the corner ruins, the wyrms can fly around all they like and the other critters (can't remember them, I think they were shambling mounds or something) can keep to themselves. If I already have those bestiary pages, then I'm not going to bother them and the map can stay half unexplored. Similar with the Gorge map. I did post something you said. What I posted has your post in my response. And the vision has NOT shifted AT ALL over the course of development. As I pointed out to your post with my responses, the Fighter has always been envisioned as such. You've assumed something that isn't there, agreed with all the updates, and since the beta has come out you've gone WTF? Well it's all there in the updates. The Fighter is as it's been envisioned and has followed everything to a tee with the updates. No Shift at all. So if you are objecting, then you are objecting to something you made up in your own mind right from the start. Well then talk with Namutree because I haven't been talking about 24hr buffs and never brought it up. It's not only possible to go into battle with 5, 6 or 8 pre-buffs and all active for a considerable amount of time during the encounter, but I can work out how to go into battle with more than that. But that's okay, I'll let you argue for pre-buffs. As I said before, it is funny seeing people who argued against this now arguing for this. And I'm not talking about people (eg. Sensuki) who had no problem with pre-buffs which seemed to be a minority on this forum some time ago. I've talking about those who opposed pre-buffs who have now back flipped.

LOL. Seriously? You were the one who made the statement of one or two posters. Go back it up. It tells me you aren't convinced of your own argument.

You will never get around the meta-game knowledge so trying to counter it is a futile exercise. Also, six rounds is short for you? 36 seconds? So pump Resolve up to 21 and you now have a spell that lasts for 56 seconds. That's nearly 10 rounds. Good times. And buff durations are not short in the beta. The BB Priest has two buffs as low as 12.5 seconds and as high as 75 seconds with a lot around the 37.5 second mark. Have you actually played the beta? Oh, that 18 + bonuses can have a huge effect. Well then what's the point of Rssolve? One of the things is to make your spells LongER. So why wouldn't you use it and max it out on pre-buffs? You'd be mad not to. So you're arguing against pre-buffing in the IE games, but it's all okay in PoE. But you argued against pre-buffing in the past (with PoE) but now it's all okay in PoE. Just because. To not have pre-buffs in PoE due to a certain duration of the spell? If that's the case, then it seems weird to be arguing for pre-buffs for a specific time and then if Resolves made that spell last more than 6 rounds, 'Oh No, we can't have that!' That really is a weak argument.

Ah yes, the feigned ignorance. Well you've been obstinately arguing over things for some time prior to the beta. And when the beta is released, there's back flips and flip-flopping everywhere. It's still kill xp. And it doesn't mitigate the grind for xp. If I know there's 5 spiders in a cave that will give me a bestiary page and xp, then I'll go kill those 5 spiders and get the xp. And there's an easy solution to stop going back and killing quest givers. Make them invulnerable, make them walk off and disappear, make them give no xp and take a reputation hit. The argument about going back and killing quest givers is a false argument by 5 year olds trying to convince others that kill xp is wrong. Try better next time. Bestiary xp is not clever. It's a shoddy implementation and Obsidian considering it shows there's a lack of 'something' (maybe long stretches of combat with no xp rewards? who knows?) to implement it. And you can't get around the fact that it's kill xp. That's what you are getting rewarded for, killing critters and getting xp rewards. More feigned ignorance. Oh how you forget the thread where I pointed out to you that the Fighter in PoE is what it's designed to be. Nothing has changed from it's original design and vision. I've never brought up post-rest long duration buffs. That was Namutree. I'm talking about pre-combat metagame pre-buffing. Short durations don't necessarily or greatly mitigate it. In fact, you can metagame it so you can have 5, 6 or 8 pre-buffs when you go into an encounter in PoE (if pre-buffs were implemented) and they will all be active, just like you could pre-buff in the IE games. The duration may be shorter but you will benefit from all those buffs. And you're now okay with this? What a back flip from you! No temper here. But I can understand if you're feeling a bit hot under the collar. And yeah, I already pointed this out to you before even though you still have your head buried in the sand. As I pointed out, That's doesn't refute my point. If anything it reinforces it. The PoE fighter is as it was designed to be and you had no problem with the updates. You just read stuff that wasn't there or assumed it could be something else.

Can't recall buff spells and durations but lets go with a 10 second buff spell. It's the difference of getting that 10 second buff spell raised to nearly 16 seconds and being able to cast it a second or two before combat and still benefiting from a considerable duration of that spell during the encounter. And I expect you're going to do a lot of damage during those 10-14 seconds, especially with sneak attack at the start of the encounter. If the encounter goes for 20 seconds, you were buffed for at least half the encounter and you didn't have to cast it during the encounter. That gives your priest other options with casting different spells and not necessarily having to cast a buff spell. This is what Gfted1 pointed out with Sawyer's stance on no "opportunity cost" with pre-buffing.

This is what I found in BG2 with short duration times that ended before an encounter finished. There were buffs that had short duration times and I could time it at a precise time to get the maximum benefit from that spell during an encounter. When you're doing it all the time every time, it becomes rote. I didn't have a problem with it in BG2. Maximum? Is that at 21? You can get race and culture benefits to pump up Resolve as well.

Yes really. There's more than one or two. Go count again.

So a pre-buff spell you can cast before entering combat that could last for an encounter would be okay? But not after you rest. Can't see Sawyer going for that.

I didn't mention 24hr pre-buffs. PrimeJunta has a problem with long duration buffs. Also, define short and long. PrimeJunta and yourself are okay with short pre-buffs. How short? And when does it become long? What if it's 1 second after you define what is short? Does it then become long? I'm not being sarcastic because battles can be all of 10-15 seconds in some cases. So that extra 1 second could make a difference. That's why I'm finding it funny because you can change a spell's duration in PoE from short to long. I'd like to know what the time frame for a short buff is because I'm sure once you define it and give it a time frame, what's stopping someone pumping up their resolve to increase the duration of the spell? If you pump up resolve, you've now got a longer duration spell before you enter combat. And this is something a lot of people argued against for the last 2 years, the default pre-buffing that some players did in the IE games. And in PoE, players may have one character in their party that has maxed their Resolve just for pre-buffing before fights. I would say to those people (I wasn't one of them) who argued against pre-buffing for 2 years, you need to come up with a better argument to include pre-buffs now.

I've never once talked about 24hr pre-buffs. Not sure why you think I am.

Out of combat, I've noticed the characters in your party will push other party members or NPCs out of the way in WL2. Much like it did in the IE games.

No, I'm not implying changing ideas is laughable. You've inferred incorrectly, as you always do.

What I don't do is argue for 2 years, grounding my feet into the ground, obstinately argue from a point of assumed information or ignorance and then flip-flop on issues. But that's just me. Bestiary xp is kill xp. No way around it. And we've been over the Fighter before in other threads. You were okay with the role of the Fighter and the design intent of them from the very beginning including the updates that came out. And then after the beta, you tried to squirm your way around by suggesting the design intent was something else and I pointed out that you incorrectly perceived it to be something it wasn't, and the PoE Fighter does fit the description and design intent all along. You assumed something incorrectly and went along with it for 2 years. With pre-buffing, I don't see the distinction between a D&D spell and a PoE spell if they have similar effects and duration. There were short duration spells in the IE games. So you would be okay with pre-buffing of D&D type spells if they have short durations? It's funny because you can change the duration of a spell in PoE with Resolve. You can make durations longer in PoE and you're okay with pre-buffing in PoE but not okay with D&D. So in summary regardless of D&D or PoE: Short durations = good. Long durations = bad. (But lets ignore you can change the duration of a spell in PoE) And yeah, I tend to LOL at people who have stuck at opinions come hell or high water for 2 years, then collapse like a wet bag and flip-flop over issues. I also tend to LOL at people who pull opinions from their behind like you do, even with the design intent of the PoE fighter.

One reason is if you have someone who wants both combat xp and quest xp like the IE games, they'll vote for both. if you have someone who votes for quest xp and not combat xp, they'll vote for quest xp. So quest xp will always get a vote in those circumstances and be higher. It's no surprise quest xp has a lot of votes because it's catering to the combat xp people too.

Wouldn't be surprised if you can unbalance the game with the hidden quest xp points. I find the hidden quest xp points all over the game world to be quite odd. It's almost like quest markers, like bread crumbs dropped over the maps, to move you onto the next stage of the quest. The act of entering the Ogre cave is one such example. And will you get similar xp rewards like entering a house? eg. Find Sir Bearington on the second floor of his house. *Enters house*. *1500xp reward*. LOL. It sounds a little ridiculous. And then you can walk straight back out of the house and do something else. Add on the Bestiary and other proposed xp systems and it will be hard not to unbalance it. Because you're going to have players do the opposite of each other with some farming every point of xp and others who won't but will still go through the game in a less efficient levelling up manner. How do you balance the game with those two types of play styles? And who do you balance the game for? The player who farms every xp or the player who doesn't? Either way of balancing will make it either easier for the xp farmer or harder for the non-farmer. Also, I don't understand exploration xp or how it will be implemented in PoE so I didn't vote for it.

^ Yep. You can do the beta with two characters with the others standing on the side lines. At the moment, you're fighting kittens and puppies.

The Bestiary pages is a shoddy attempt at combat xp. If it takes five spiders to kill to receive a page of that spider and there's still another 6 spiders in the dungeon, then I'm going to leave those 6 spiders. I received my xp reward, time to move on.

Do you have any proof that someone changed his mind here? Yes. I do have proof. There's a lot of proof of people changing their minds since the beta went live and now allowing stuff that they argued against over the last two years.

LOL at all the people who have changed their minds and now want pre-buffing. This has been a hilarious beta with so many people changing their minds on so many things and going against the design decisions for the last 2 years. Quest xp is now not enough of a reward, Classes don't work and need to be more D&D like (they did work before the beta and so many people had no problem with them), Bestiary kill xp to get rewarded for killing enemies, lock/trap xp like BG2 and now pre-buffing.

Obsidian must be concerned to seriously consider putting it in. When I first played the beta, doing the Dyrfood ruins took some time to do (because I had no idea where I was going and searching all the rooms) and close to an hour I thought, I haven't received any xp and this combat is a chore. ugh. Maybe Obsidian have noticed the same problem. Long stretches without xp rewards.

Combat xp will be in the game in the form of bestiary pages. I've brought this example up many times: - Player 1 chooses the non-combat route going through a dungeon, or the least amount of combat possible and finishes a quest. Leaves 90% of critters still alive. Gets the Quest rewards including Quest XP. That's it. - Player 2 goes on a murderous spree through that same dungeon, killing every critter in sight. Kills 100% of critters. Gets the Quest rewards including Quest XP as well as a couple of bestiary pages which translates into additional XP rewards. Player 2 gets more XP rewards by going the kill route. Wrap it up any way you want but all it comes down to is - it is kill xp.