Adhin

Yeah Colonial Era is a rather long, and blurry period that, as Elerond pointed out could be said to still be going but... Ehh whatever. Like I said when you say 'Colonial' I think 1700's roughly. I don't think of the 'very' start of it when it blurred with the middle ages. Also I've never heard anyone call that time period the Imperial Ages. Generally when you talk about 'imperial' its rome or greece ancient times. Either way, my whole point was it doesn't really matter 'WHEN' the Colonial period started as when I think of Colonial, I think of the 1700s. Which is long past wheellocks and anyone using armor or swords for anything other then flash. 1500 is when Wheellocks where invented, folks still used armor and swords, and that's basically what PoE is going for. Which is more of a transitional period of middle ages into what I'd consider Colonial. Ultimately folks wont be waring old Colonial attire from when the North Americas where being colonized. There wont be any flintlocks, its wheellocks and a lot of middle age melee warfare. With Magic, lots of Soul Magic. And no Printing Press. Swords, plate/scale/chain armor, magic, wheellocks. ...wonder if anyones going to be waring any extremely stupid wigs. Still don't get why they wore those. Weird time.

Yeah I'm usually not a big fan of guns in high fantasy but a lot of that stems from them not having a good explanation for them. Generally when you have magic, the evolution of guns seems... a little pointless. That's probably why I like the idea of them in PoE though. They're explained, they have a specific purpose and it's not to replace the bow or the sword. The only real reason they've taken off in any real way is because they allow people to break through a magical protection shield. Which means you got a rifle or pistol with a single shot, your pretty much using it to break through a magic users defenses before attacking via other means. I think that's an interesting way of handling it. Also never minded them in GW2, but again it was explained in that. There was a race that invented them for warfare purposes as an industrial boom so they had em. Little awkward how 'fast' they fired but whatever. Anyway I like the little added detail and that guns aren't just all over the place or the 'best thing to always use'. They have a purpose and outside of that purpose you probably have better ways to handle stuff. -edit- Oh and I don't like thinking of it as 'colonial era' but that's mostly cause America. I know 'colonial era' is kinda all over the place and hard to pin down but it just brings up thoughts of the start of America for me which is extremely far from high fantasy in so many ways. Also Wheellocks are a lot older then that, 1500's roughly. Flintlocks came after, hundred years or so after. And again when I think 'Colonial' I think more around the 1700-1800's. ...But that's just me.

I think all this talk about whats balanced and whats 'the best build' is a little pointless at this time honestly. Ultimately I think allowing for RP options is more important to these games. If you have strength and it doesn't effect melee damage your basically killing off an entire line of common and beloved character archetypes. I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with picking different attributes for effecting different kind of damage but if that's not really an option then I feel like STR should effect damage, and INT should effect Crit damage or chance (not both, of course). In the end it's more about being able to create any given persons prefered character archetypes or weird oddball characters. Hell I'd go as far to say as damage should just be removed entirely from attributes if it wont be on strength or split up depending on the type of attack. Cause moving it to INT, if they keep with these naming convention, it just a stifle to RP'ing up a character, and I for one do not want that to happen. It's more important to me then getting a perfect balance, by a long, long mile.

Yeah in the end it doesn't matter to me to much but I definitely don't want anything related with the brain having to do with damage output. And not because you can't make up a reason for why that would make sense but ultimately it kinda kills RP options. Balance being the only driving force behind 'why' attributes are the way they are is the same reason Dragon Age 2 cut there attributes down to 4 and why 'Attack' is there damage stat for 'everyone'. It's also what leads attribute to being mostly pointless and generally lacks any RP behind them. Basically, you can't make a 'brute' character if the only way you can do more dmg with attributes is by having a bigger brain. Now... Ferocity. That I can use for anyone and make it work. Body is definitely a little weird sounding even if it makes sense. I mean you got all these more interesting words for everything else then.. body. It's kinda like putting katchup on real fancy food (which I would do... given I even liked the fancy food and it went...blarge losing where im going with that). Aaanyway I still think its the best list, maybe with a bit more tweaking on the naming side but all the right themes are there and they don't get in the way of each other. I could make a Brawler type with Body Endurance and some Ferocity as my previous example. And ultimately that's whats important to me. If you can't make a wide variety of character types and have them make sense with in the attribute system somethings wrong.

@aluminiumtrioxid: See now I think that's a good list of attribute names that still fits what they're going for. Though I still kind of prefer the term Perception over acuity... mostly cause acuity is really weird to say and look at. But hey whatever the list fits the current wants with names that don't get in the way of that. Hope they look at it and take that specific list to heart when coming up with stuff.

Well I've been arguing (all be it no ones commented on any of it) to get rid of most of the names anyway except Resolve and Perception and rename them to better fit these 2. But I feel like arguing anyway so...intelligence 'in the middle of a fight' would increase damage via pre-existing studied learning. Both from general learning, thinking on what to do 'when the time comes' and from reviewing and learning from your past fights. Which I generally agree is already represented by your LEVELING. That is the whole point of leveling really, is to show your overall experience and progress as a person. I don't think INT would ever represent 'in the moment' boosts, as that would be more of a perception thing, being able to notice something and react to it isn't really the area of intelligence. I just wish I had other names to use for the other attributes besides Resolve and Perception since I don't feel like they match up with stuff like Str, Con, Dex or Int. They're all very concrete physical things (yeah even intelligence). They're also things that're A LOT harder to just 'get super good at' by concentrating. I mean think about it, I can't concentrate my muscles bigger or any of that nonsense. Now, in the moment, when you really need to, you can focus and become more perceptive, you can gain a new resolve for completing your existing task (weather thats you know, not dying or whatever). I just think the other attributes should be named with the same kind of theme as those 2 things. And lets not bring in the whole adrenaline hulked out moms ripping car doors off hinges. That took no concentration and a bucket load of adrenaline... just sayin'.

All the more reason not to call it strength. Another reason to dump the word 'intelligence' and have it apply to all damage I give to you my old friend back in middle school Robert. Robert was very smart, stupid good memory. Hell this'll even work with strength to denounce strength more so. He was about 6'4", big guy, pretty strong. He couldn't chop wood to save his life. He could pick up the axe, he definitely understood how a wedge with added force chopped up wood... but he just couldn't manage to do the motion properly. Beginning of Skyrim, the executioner that chops off the head of the Stormcloak? Holds the axe handle at both extreme ends and kinda herpy-derps it down and it just sorta works. That was Robert, and spoiler, that's not enough force to chop wood, or probably that guys head. Woulda been painful though and he might of lost his balance attempting it. Granted folks kinda assume your warrior or fighter isn't that big of a derp at swinging a weapon and as such more strength equals better momentum and all that... sure. Anyway I still think they should drop the normal naming convention and come up with something a bit more ideal based in theme for the names. And if inventory slots is tied to a stat, I feel like whatever gives stamina should be tied to inventory size. It just makes more sense then health. Ability to carry stuff for extended periods of time are rather heavily linked to ones stamina in a general sense, not necessarily there strength. Though Strength definitely helps.

So I dunno how to explain my thoughts on this but I've spent years thinking about this kinda stuff so im gonna try my best. First I think tying damage and healing to a single stat isn't a good idea. That's like having HP and DMG all on one stat, you ultimately only need 1 reason to take the stat and giving it 2 fundamental mechanical reasons just makes it to good to pass up. So the way I see it, an attribute should do 1 main thing, and if it does anything else that should be secondary. Healing I don't consider to be 'secondary'. Also with an attribute called Resolve, and healing being more of a 'second wind' then actual wounds closing up magically... Resolve just 'makes more sense' for the attribute that makes you play nicer with 'healing effects'. And before I get into naming stuff, whoever said Crit damage 'and' damage on one attribute? No, that's another bad combo. I mean why would you use anything else? Imma take the one that gives me damage with my damage so I can do more damage with my damage? That's not really a choice at that point... anyway. So generally I kinda liked the original stuff that was mentioned for attributes but I think the naming is a bit off. But then I don't think 'Resolve' as a name fits with the rest. It's more of an ideal, or idea, something you muster like courage. I definitely agree it fits as an attribute just not with the other ones listed. To that end I'd say your best off removing the names all together, coming up from a balance perspective what you guys think best fits from a balance stand point and then come up with a 'theme' for what to call them. Personally, I like resolve and would recommend using that style of naming for all the rest and get rid of stuff like Strength and Intelligence. They're to specific for what your trying to do anyway. So yeah, that's my 2 cents, like the direction but think you should just rename ALL of the attributes (except resolve) and come at the naming with more of an ideal-style theme for it (like resolve already is).

Oh the wondrous topic of inch chick duct tape armor, I can with a high degree of certainty say 'probably extremely well'. They're are records of paper armor which hold up surprisingly well for combat of the times. Mythbusters did a test of it vs metal of the same design and it did a good job. Duct tape, by and large would be far more durable and last long and have less issues with rain then pure tape armor would so... yeah. Though I wouldn't want to rely on duct tape being the thing that 'binds' the duct tape plates that would just fall apart to easily. But if you can make a boat and a shobby functioning bridge out of it, and paper works for armor (inch thick folded paper).

@TrashMan: LOL I mostly agree with ya I was just trying to point out why since you have a tendency to dismiss somethings existence so immensely when its not 'really the same thing'. I mean it takes more steps and you do it less often which leads folks to forget unlike resting which is a central part of combat. Durability would also be 'central' but its background instead of foreground. Most people I know that forget though do tend to start remembering once its bit them in the ass once or twice. And seriously if someones forgetting 'all' the time they need to do some memory exercises, aint 'that' hard to remember. But again unlike health it's less often and not as important to combat. Not saying it shouldn't be in, Sylvius made a good point about abstract realism (lols) add to the feel of the world, and I agree with it. Just its a lesser concern overall and on a gameplay front doesn't add anything. I kinda hope they come up with something else to do in the future in relation to all this instead of just letting it all go, though basic durability I don't care if it exists or not.

Most of the IE 'feel' difference amongst them selves is just in the setting. Though PST does have that snazzy right-click menu... I'd say 'feel' of play has a lot to do with animations, how fast characters move in general, how fluid mouse movements and the like are. It sounds like a no brainer but a lot of games can screw that up A LOT. How fluid is the camera? does it have a build up on when holding a key down, how responsive is it when you mouse-drag the screen, or when you corner hold the cursor to move it? All of that can make or break how the game 'feels' even when the math behind the combat and 'mechanics' are all the same. Rules and setting are also big parts of it, of course. It takes all of it to make a game feel truly great in my opinion, fail to hard on either side and it feels either watered down, lacking in some way or just plane clunky.

I know no one mentioned it TrashMan, it wasn't directed at anyone I just felt like mentioning it as it's still part of past games that have done it this kinda thing. And resting is usually a single key press, repairing is going back to town, talking to a guy, going into his services (hopefully not paging over) then hitting the repair button, then saying yes, please repair. Granted that's still not a big issue but its enough stuff extra steps and something a lot of folks forget... people rarely forget to rest, and if they do the next combat encounter they barely scrape by on or fail at and reload fixes that laps in memory. Now, if you forget to repair and it shows up mid dungeon 'thats' a hassle you can't fix as easily as resting. Well, unless resting are in very specific, far drawn out areas making resting just as much of a pain. Or that idea you had with repair on rest which I think is a good way to minimize the irritation of it but I also think it's all a tad trivial to have durability in all together. It's management more then often just comes down to someones memory, nothing related to actual gameplay. And for sure we'll be resting far more often then we would of had to of repaired.

Pretty sure the crafting wasn't even dependent on the crafting skill for anything. Think it just lowered cost of things or... something. Still curious to what exactly is involved though either way as a universal 'crafting skill' was awkward.

I'm generally a fan of base material not effecting damage as that has little bearings on it in the realsies. Its more of a reliability thing then anything else which makes sense with what you mentioned. Least with weapons, anyway. With armor its 'reliability' literally translated entirely to its ability to not make you dead. It's like ducted tape, its an amazing material that can work 'as good' as a vast away of other methods to hold something together... at least for the first shot then it just kinda quickly goes to crap. Actually an issue I have with Skyrim setup. But then its also extremely odd that the design of a weapon in that game directly linked to its material....TES is just kinda weird like that.

Yeah I don't think it's a problem. If we had no variation in are classes (like 2nd edition) then I see a problem. Ultimately rigid structures just aren't as fun to me. In IE games it was sorta ok (though it drove me bonkers anyway) since you have up to 6 total chars so you kinda get to mess with everything, really. But on a personal level, developer your character and you have a specific idea and the game refuses to allow it to happen because its to rigid, that's just a bummer. Also I kinda feel like im being argumentative on a subject we both agree on. Think I'm just looking for crap to keep my mind busy after the news this week (not PE related, R.I.P Ryan Davis).

I think assuming low hp means hes lost limbs or is spilling blood everywhere and rest magically fixes that is pretty silly, but its the initial part that makes it silly. Yeah resting instantly fixing anything besides basic fatigue overnight is pretty off but your not 'regrowing a limb'. Actually one of the few reasons I like there change to stamina and health as a combo system for determining your state of well being during a fight. And the repair on rest is actually something TrashMan was suggesting earlier which I agree its a nice idea. Though his never healed to full per test and had to hit up a smith for it. The way I see it though, while you can have it fix in full or just mostly on rest to mitigate the irritation of manually fixing it, unlike health its not a required system for combat to actually work. And a basic durability drain that you replenish, via any method, isn't adding to much to it. You'd have to do something more interesting with it then just be secondary HP for your weapons that gets fixed easily to be meaningful. As per the HP/SP system they're using I kinda hope higher difficulties don't allow full HP gain on rest unless your at an INN or someplace more comfortable you can spend a good number of days at. IE games did this to some extent but it was universal for everywhere and you had rest-till-healed (of which it would take into consideration the classes available). Basically if you didn't have someone who could heal, and you rested out in the wild your basically skipping a weeks time to fully heal up, if that. Where as an Inn, going for a nobles suit, could halve the time required due to the luxury involved not making it harder to get proper rest. That said the whole idea behind there HP/SP on a mechanical level is to make it so only are resting 3 to 4 times less often. If in BG2, for instance you had 100 hp, you may have 100sp/hp in game but only a fraction (say 25%) make it to your health bar. Meaning you'll pass out the 1st few times before your health is in actual danger. Also means you can fight 3-4 times as long (not per-battle but from battle to battle) then you would normally. It's in there to not stop rest spamming but to alleviate the 'need' for it. Durability would have to fit into that too or your back to square one on rest spamming. As for ability/spells, as you lvl up they go to per-encounter uses instead of per-rest (though higher end ones still remain per-rest) which allows for extended times between rest as well.

@Sylvius The Mad: Crazy people Sir Mad, crazy people. I don't get that kind of 'difficulty' change in RPG's either. If its not twitch based then it's all a math stream with bad random rolls. better off changing the actual encounters to be more difficult then the 'rules'. Which they seem to be shooting for ^.^

Yeah RedSocialKnight there can be more interesting ways to handle weapons in relation 'to' durability but, ultimately, its still something you have to go out of your way to fix once it gets crap. Health, Stamina, Spells, general Abilities 'all' fix them selves on rest. I think the way durability tends to work undermines its self just due to how you have to manage it. Bethesda sort of had it right in my opinion as to an issue with durability. Your normal and you constantly working towards being crappier when it comes to durability and, prior to playing Skyrim and actually seeing what they had did I liked what they had proposed. Basically they where saying you sharpen or somehow increase your weapons damage output and made it seem like it would be for a time. It would be like durability but something you physically choose. I kind of like that idea and it fits in with other consumables as a basic system of you find, make, or buy this item that has a single use. It gives a duration based buff or, in this game, number of hits (like durability) except its all in improving your weapon for that time instead of you working towards being ****. Plenty of examples of this exist in RPG's such as fire oils you use on your weapon to add some fire damage for a time. Dark Souls had a lot of magical powder stuff that added fire or lightning, or you could enchant your blade with magic dmg and all that jaz. They could easily add on a sharpening stone for use on bladed weapons that minorly buffs up dmg, say +1 or +2 but also increases your critical hit range (or damage) for a set number of hits, say 20. Not sure what they could do for blunt weapons other then perhaps a lose fitted weight that'll crap out after awhile but can add needed impact to your swings. Again a simple +2 dmg but allow for better armor DR penetration or something. Personally, that's what I think I'd like to see over a durability system. Number of hit based consumables that can be applied to weapons to bolster damage/effects. What I was hoping Skyrim was going to do, sadly they just went with a wildly exploitable permanent dmg upgrade.

Yeah, Sylvious utopia of all mage party shall very most likely be realized and not horribly gimped, and its a good thing. Really do like what they're doing with mages and having spells turn into per-encounter instead of per-rest after you level up enough so you always have access to the lower end spells each fight. Anytime I had a mage they spent more time thumb wrestling them selves then casting spells unless it was an absolute necessity.

Yeah I agree Lephys it's ultimately just a semantics thing. That's what nitpickings all about though heh. Its black! no its not its really dark grey! blaarge. As for making it more meaningful NV as another mentioned had a good system that... well makes more sense for guns then it does swords and maces but in the end it's not very meaningful in a resource management kind of way. Instead of selling a gun, you used it to repair your own. Guns had a lot of weight to em so you rarely just carried around a ton of the damn things which usually just gave you more reason to cheaply repair your own gun on the spot when you found a like version to save space for things that actually sold well and didn't weigh as much. In the end this goes back to what I was saying about do or don't do is hardly a good choice. What you use to repair would have to have a lot of other benefits to make repairing just being one of the many choices available to do. And I honestly don't know what the crap that would be. Then you'd have to make sure not repairing wasn't to detrimental as to heavily outweight whatever else you chose to do with whatever reason. Gold certainly couldn't be that resource as that would never stop you from repairing. I just dunno what the crap they could do in this kind of a setting to make some kinda weapon maintenance 'mechanic' be that interesting. I mean we don't need durability to say 'look at guys are doing weapon maintenance' kinda like we don't need to feed all 6 party members on a daily basis to realize they're eating, or taking a piss when they have to. I don't mean that to belittle the idea of some kinda maintenance mechanic, I just think it has to be real interesting and provide some kind of fun/interesting thing by its self before it becomes really worth implementing. ...and I have no idea what that would even be, sadly.

@Prometheus: Yeah I remember that but what they want and what they end up with can be 2 different things. I just have high hopes its how im hoping for (which is what they want to so, yay). Why I'll start on hardest diff and 'see how it goes' before deciding if I'll keep with it. It's what I do with every game I play. RPG's just tend to be the thing I am more likely to change difficulty due to the vast majority of it just being random chance and math where your skill matters so little higher difficulty just comes down to 'how much do you enjoy reloading?' and less about actual skill. DA did a pretty good job at some of that, though there random immunities killed it for me for playing on harder difficulties. It didn't make it 'hard' it just made it kinda stupid. Also why was a bandit just immune to fire, or lightning? **** made no sense what so ever. That kinda thing should be universal in normal+ difficulties. Fire Elemental? Things immune to fire, surprise I guess. I can see playing on an easy difficulty and it removing immunities to higher resist for some folks but... yeah. I'm seriously looking forward to this game heh.

It's a non-chioce Sylvius. A yes/no is technically a choice, do it or don't do it, experience content or don't, play the game or don't... its a choice but its a horribly ****ty boring choice thats as goddamn basic as it gets. repairing equipment ISN'T some crazy resource management that adds heavy choices into the game. It's eating every day. Sure you can decide 'not' to eat every day if you want, but your going to have to at some point if you plan to keep doing... stuff. It's not really much of a choice. If repairing was some kind of extremely rare instance that had massive impact on 'resources' that was required for other stuff completely unrelated and you had to make a choice between some other stuff 'or' use it to 'repair your equipment' then yeah, it would be an interesting choice. But that would have to be a story beat which should result in some kind of minor debuff if you choose not to repair stuff prior to whatever and doing so removes other options. That would be an interesting choice thing but that has 0 to do with a maintenance system. It's a money sink, one that can be enjoyable and add to the feeling of the game, but it is by no means some kind of resource choice. It is, by its very nature 'not' a resource choice, it exist to help keep a resource becoming to abundant. -edit- @RedSocialKnight: Yeah NV had a 'great' repair system. Was a good evolution from FO3's a bit more restrictive one. Was a good example of general maintenance, and needing another like item to strip for parts.

Yeah that's the argument im making, since no one considers it the same blade and yes proper maintenance will prolong a blades life 100%. It's just bizar to me people think you can just repair a blade when 'repairing' it in the manner a lot of people think literally is just recycling it into another blade. Like you said, you could make the argument its a different blade (implying it could also be the same sword) but there is absolutely 'nothing' else that anyone makes that argument for. You melt cans down to make more cans, no one assumes they're the same can. None of that matters and the stuff your asking seems to be ignoring all the other crap I've said about I'm happy with a durability and repair system in, I just want **** explained in some small manner so it doesn't come across as wildly arbitrary like so many other things. They've already done that, to some extent, with the inventory and I'm freakin' overjoyed with the way there handling that. That's all I want, if you put a system like that in, put a little thought into explaining it, and they've been really good at that so far. As far as constantly arguing you don't actually 'repair' broken blades you recycle them into a completely different blade was just to toss out information a lot of folks seem to not of been considering (or even realize that's how you 'repair' a weapon or what reforging actually is). Lemmy reiterate this again - I'm for your idea of a durability system and I would enjoy it. I'm not arguing against a durability system, or for one for that matter. Ultimately I'm happy with it either way though if it ends up actually getting put in, a little explanation (in game, preferably from a black smith them selves) as to the whys and hows, in a simple matter, would just be more enjoyable to me in general. Realize I'm rambling again but 1 more off point as to why I've brought this up. In system where you have durability and 0 means its broke and you have to toss it? Only smiths can fix it for some reason but they can't fix it once its broke. It can be chipped, cracked, bent (minor bends can be fixed, just wont be as good as it was before durability wise) but once its 'broke' its screwed entirely. I just find it kinda silly, cause the only things you'd 'actually' have to take to a smith to fix usually involve it being recycled and if its broke... yeah.

Yeah the way that was always handled was reeeaaally bizar. BG2 or PST didn't do it much better for that matter. That was one reason I enjoyed KotOR so much (amongst other reasons, like it being awesome) was your ship as some kinda central hub. Everyone you meet who joins you, you know, joins your damn group. They may not be with you fighting but they're there the whole time on your ship doin' stuff and things. Not sure how much sense a 'central camp' (like DAO) would make sense in PE but having less awkward party removable chats and them saying where they'll be (like they did in BG2) can at least help some of the awkwardness. Every time you tried to swap someone out in BG2 they sounded like you just murdered there cat in front of them. Was always so damn weird.

Oh man, now that'd be a fun easter egg, some crazed bard spinning wild ideas named Peter Molyneux.