TrashMan

Are you saying that it's impossible for Serbs to be zealots? Or that it's impossible for a granny to hold a gun? Not always but damn near every time. Not even close. And it's damn poor at history and political/social sciences, because they are everything but simple. You again like to ignore the links and black on white. Go ahead and claim that wikipedia lies about everything. I asked you to provide a number of Serbian court cases. Provide SOMETHING. And you have been proven wrong on all of it, but you refuse to believe. Despite video evidence. Despite black-on-white papers. Despite your own president confirming it. JNA was in Croatia. Fighting. It was in Knin. It was in Vukovar. During the entire war. JNA tanks. JNA aircraft. JNA ships. JNA soldiers. All in Croatia, long after independance was declared. Any further discussion is pointless. I could be using feces and it would still be a million years ahead of your posts.

I don't know if I agree to that definition...but I could be convinced? For me the Cold War was a war of ideology but for example the Bosnian War was about nationalism All wars boil down to the same - convincing people that violence is the answer to their problems. Convincing them that they are in danger (moral, cultural, physical, economical), their self-interest and protective impulses channeled outwards will do the rest. The greatest of crimes are committed with people thinking them for the good. Justifications differ. Explanations differ. But in it's core it's all the same. All wars are nothing but a litany of excuses and smokescreens. Nationalism, religion - those things are not at the core.

Well ww2 era guns must be heavy armaments for the mighty Croatian Army. The JNA was arming the "civilians" with proper guns. Some grannies had more guns than a battalion. And were as crazy as the biggest jjhadist zealots. which tends to happen when you populate the area with the biggest nationalists and gun nuts. Occam's razor. Occams razor is not accepted as proof by anyone. The simplest explanation is not always the right one. I see you still avoid showing proof for your claims. I did try to find some source to corroborate your claim, couldn't find anything. A person would think that you would be all to happy to show proof for you claims, instead you think calling me lazy is gonna prove anything. Given that the wiki is full of links, I find your "couldn't find anything" claims amusing. But I suppose you only see things that collaborate your views, and everything else is invisible to your eyes. During this entire thread, I provided 20 times more proof than you ever did. If that was the case, why wasn't Serbia called the Shield of Europe? How come there are foreign documents calling Croatia that, and not Serbia? Probably because you have a history of overblowing everything you do and making revisionist histories. Wait..so did you just accept the fact that we were fighting the JNA? As in - there were JNA forces in Croatia? Are you changing your tune now? Earlier you were claiming that there was no JNA presence in Croatia and we were only fighting civilians the whole time Sorry to burst your bubble, but the JNA was there the whole time. In large numbers. And it didn't help them. At all.

That doesn't matter when you are fighting poorly armed civilians. The biggest support of the west was the deterrent to Serbia to use any real force. Except they did and the "civilians" were anything but poorly armed. I must be imagining your sanity too then. Correlation does not equal causation. Logical fallacies 101 I see you still haven't learned to use wikipedia. Other than my country didn't launch invasions and wars of conquest? Other than it was called "the Shield of Europe" for it constant defense against turkish incursions? Other than it sent the JNA crying back home? Not much.

A drop in the ocean, given that Croatia didn't have an army or equipment. JNA had everything. We captured most of what the CA used. Suuure. Then I must have been imagining the JNA destroyer that shot at Split. I must have just imagined JNA aircraft doing bombing runs. I must have imagined JNA artillery, JNA tanks and JNA soldiers. Clearly a mass hallucination. The destruction and dead are also hallucinations I suppose? The JNA didn't move back. They might have told you they did, or moved some assets to keep appearances. But I saw plenty of JNA forces inside Croatia during the whole time. I'm not confirming anything. It is you who state that their intentions were clear. Now if Croatian forces walked into a town, slaughtered Serbs or force-marched them out of town, they you'd have a case for ethnic cleansing. However, that didn't happen. Nope. I'm denying the whole "planned ethnic cleansing" bulls***, not anything else. The fact that we trailed 2400 of our own people for various war crimes should make it clear. How many of their people has Serbia trailed for crimes during the war? P.S. - the battle of Kosovo (1389) or the battle of Marica (1371)?

Alright...stopping now

What support? There was no direct support. Indirect, via some information and the black market - yes. But Serbia was getting support from russia, so that hardly matter. No, Serbia attacked first because you wanted all the territory. The aspiration for a Great Serbia have never died. Simple as that. Doesn't change the fact that it was still SFRJ and that there where as much Serbian citizens in the city at the time, the army was doing it's job. There was no YNA in Croatia when it was recognized as independent. Anything before that was in the sphere of influence of YNA, because it was still SFRJ. It was not SFRJ, and there was JNA in Croatia when it was recognized as independant. All documented and recorded. Knin is a Croatian city and the JNA was in there, long after Croatia declared independence. JNA airplanes and ships were all over Croatias territory. How you still are capable of continuing the denial is beyond me. Over 1000, not 1000. Oh so the good forces of Croatia were coming with open arms to keep the Serbs in Croatia safe... So you say. Officially it's 324. And the good forces of JNA/RSK were coming with open arms to keep the Croats safe? I didn't say he ordered it specifically. I said it happened. You had tanks running away with civilian convoys, you had tons of civilian people armed. And before that you had purges of Serbs who were disloyal.

Frak doing that. NPC's and enemies should work like PC's. Same rules. Same world. Competition? That's a shallow way of looking at it. Even if you have two wizards, you can spec them differently. OR you can spec them the same and double your awesomeness in one area. Competition mentality either exists or it does not, regardless if the skill you have are exactly the same or not. Does NPC's special skill work better than yours? Then you are "a third wheel and pointless" (I utterly and completely reject this kind of absolutist thinking. Either you're the very best at something or you suck???) Nothing really changes with special skills. It's just a different wrapper. The "problem" of character efficiency remains the same, only instead of"does character A make better use of skill X than character B" you go "does unique power/skill X of character A synergize better with this class/my party then unique power Y of character B"

So you start burning our villages and attacking our citizens and we coming to defend are the aggressors. Funny how that works. Other way around. The RSK (with JNA help) attacked. Coming in to defend was nothing but propaganda and cheap justification. You know.. kinda like Russia is doing in Ukraine. I didn't say no Serbian soldiers in Croatia, I said no YNA in Croatia. The Krajine army was by your own sources in full retreat and not engaging the Croats. As for Vukovar. Well Vukovar was a Serbian city, how can we attack our own city? Vukovar was in the time of war, spring-winter 1991., a part of SFRJ. SFRJ existed till 1992. If the war in Vukovar was from 1992. (Croatian Independence) then it would be YNA aggression in Croatia. But the JNA was in Croatia. Knin and Vukovar are Croatian towns and always have been. "Since the Treaty of Karlowitz in 1699, Vukovar was part of the Habsburg Monarchy, Slavonia (Transleithania after the compromise of 1867), and soon after in the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, created when the Kingdom of Slavonia and the Kingdom of Croatia were merged in 1868. In 1918, Vukovar became part of the newly formed Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (Yugoslavia in 1929). Between 1918 and 1922, Vukovar was administrative seat of Syrmia (Srijem) county, and between 1922 and 1929 it was the administrative seat of Syrmia oblast. Since 1929, it was part of the Sava Banovina, and beginning in 1939 it was part of the Banovina of Croatia. Between 1941 and 1944, Vukovar was part of the Independent State of Croatia. During World War II the city was bombed by the Allies. In 2008 an unexploded bomb was found in the city from this period.[6]From 1945, it was part of the People's Republic of Croatia within new socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar "In 1990, an armed insurrection was started by Croatian Serb militias, supported by the Serbian government and paramilitary groups, who seized control of Serb-populated areas of Croatia. The JNA began to intervene in favour of the rebellion, and conflict broke out in the eastern Croatian region of Slavonia in May 1991. In August, the JNA launched a full-scale attack against Croatian-held territory in eastern Slavonia, including Vukovar." That's because the cases were rather simple and evidence lacking. LOL. Given that you celebrate one of the biggest defeats as a victory....yeah Where was it ordered and enforced? People were scared of the Croatian Army and they ran. Your own sources confirm that. Over 1000 civilians deaths confirm that they were right in their fears. 324, not 1000. And being afraid and being forcefully evicted are two different things. The issue isn't being scared, since one can be scared for all the wrong reasons too. Without proof that is just slander. But hey, that is pretty much your MO thus far. Check history. Stalin killed other Russians Hitler killed Germans. Americans killed Americans. Nationalities often pale in comparison to idelological differences and party extremism.

I will demand two things: 1) Proof that boys and girls were doing the exact same things and if so: 2) proof that girls are actually more likely to be called bossy in that case (or that boys are more likely to be called leaders) before I even consider this poorly concieved campaign. That just means that the Freedom of Speech is on paper only.

Of course we did. The aggression was done by you. Oh really? The RSK army was trained and supplied and was essentially CREATED by the JNA. And of course, as soon as Croatia declared independence, you went to "help the poor, oppressed Serbs in Croatia" No Serbian soldeirs in Croatia? You got to be kidding me. The very quote you say proves me wrong confirms it. Let me highlight it for you: "Milosevic: Please, 6 thousand Croats defended Vukovar for half a year, the whole first army attacked it, the airforce too, a wonder, all the might YNA had and they didn't defend Knin, which could only be accessed from 3 directions; they couldn't even defend it for 12 hours?" So a Croatian town deep in Croatia's territory is attacked by the entire army and airforce of the JNA, another Croatian town is held by the "might of the JNA army" and "The Serbian army didn't go beyond Croatian border". Well, I guess you too follow the old Serbian proverb: "Gdje je Srpski grob, tu je srpska zemlja" (Where there is a Serbian grave, that is Serbian land) And the NATO bombings are jack s**** compared to what the people under Serbian boots had to suffer. Precisely! They had their verdict in years time if that. While ours are still in Hag and the ones that aren't are dead, with no verdicts. And you find it bad that they aren't proclaimed guilty? Your side didn't want to persecute anyone and had to be practically strong armed. Alas, the trails are notoriously slow. I was referring to your claims of Serbian army easily dominating everyone and everything. Which is funny given that they struggled everywhere. And b.t.w. - there is every reason to use airstrikes even if you are winning. Mainly because it makes things easier/faster. They said "f*** this!" and run away, forcing the civies to run away too. Not civilians. Attacking the RSK. We see the Exodus happened because it was ORDERED and ENFORCED. They were inflating fears and forcing people to leave. Given that history is full of people of the same nationality killing each other for various reasons, it makes perfect sense. People who refused to leave or wanted to surrender were considered traitors by the hard-liners.

Improved.

No. Frak special snowflakes with special unique skill trees and crap. No. A thousand times no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZJoh_OhEs&feature=player_embedded Trancript from the meeting of "Vrhovnog savjeta obrane Jugoslavije" (High defense council of Jugoslavia) ,14. 8, 1995. after operation Strom: Milošević: Molim vas, 6 hiljada Hrvata je branilo Vukovar pola godine; napadala je cela Prva armija, vazduhoplovstvo, čudo, sva sila koju je imala JNA, a oni nisu odbranili Knin, kojem se može prići samo iz tri pravca; nisu ga mogli braniti ni 12 sati!? Oni ga nisu branili, jer po svim izveštajima koje smo dobili od policajaca, građana i ostalih, čim je prestala artiljerijska priprema u sedam uveče, oni su naredili - bežaniju! Prema tome, tu nije bilo nikakvog otpora niti je bilo borbenog dodira sa hrvatskim snagama. (...) - Tamo je palo naređenje da svi izađu iz Krajine istog dana, čak bez stvorenog kontakta sa hrvatskom vojskom na najvećem delu fronta. Da smo istog tog dana napravili idiotsku glupost da im pomognemo, ko bi to stigao do Knina do večeri da im pomogne?! Pa, tamo ne bi moglo da se stigne od njihovih kolona kojima su zakrčili sve putove u bežaniji zajedno sa stanovništvom. (...) Pitanje je ko je, zaista, doneo odluku da krajiško rukovodstvo napusti Krajinu? Takva odluka, kada su imali sve uslove da se brane, izazvala je egzodus. Sada to treba da bude razlog da Jugoslavija jurne tamo da brani te teritorije, sa kojih su oni utekli kao zečevi?! ********************* U prilog tome ide činjenica da je Krajina mjesecima pripremana na scenarij “humanog preseljenja”. Po selima u okolici Dvora na Uni i Hrvatske Kostajnice te na Baniji krajem 1994. i početkom 1995. kružili su razni činovnici i oficiri pripremajući stanovništvo na “privremenu” evakuaciju u slučaju sasvim izvjesnog napada “ustaških snaga”, koje “kolju sve pred sobom”. “Sjetite se akcije Maslenica, Miljevački plato, Medački džep”, upozoravali su srpski mediji. “Sve će vas pobiti i vaše kuće popaliti”, govorili su novinari, pripremajući narod na povlačenje Taken from: http://www.novossti.com/2011/05/prica-s-krajinske-strane/ (a serbian site) TRANSLATED: Around the villages in the vicinity of Dvor on Una and Croatian Kostajnica, and Banija, at the end of 1994 and the beginning of 95', various dignitaries and officers have circled around, preparing the populace for a "temporary evacuation" in the event of an attack by "ustaša forces", that are "slaughtering everything in front of them". the Serbian media were warning "You will all be killed and your houses burned!". More: (translate yoruself) Za bježanje ljude je obavijestilo naše rukovodstvo. Narodu je dat veliki strah od Hrvatske vojske, pa smo morali izbjeći. Mi koji nismo bježali, strogo smo se sakrili, da ne znaju da ostajemo, jer bismo morali ili bježati, ili bi nas ubili Srbi. ... Išli su po kućama i provjeravali da li ljudi idu ... (Izjava N. Drače, 23. srpnja 1998., HHO, Vojna operacija ’Oluja’ i poslije,14). Da to nisu bile samo prijetnje, pokazuje izjava M. P. (podaci u HMDCDR), da su joj “martićevci ubili sina na ležaju jer je odbio ići u kolonu” (HMDCDR: usmeno svjedočanstvo O. N. – podaci u HMDCDR). M. K. (podaci u HMDCDR) izjavila je: Bili smo u podrumu zgrade gdje je zubar Milan Babić imao stan. Došla je milicija i natjerala nas u kolonu (HMDCDR, protokol 1396 od 18. 09. 1995. godine). M. M. (podaci u HMDCDR) izjavio je: Bio sam ranjen od srpskog snajperista. Došao sam spašavati sina i svi se vratiti (HMDCDR, protokol 1360 od 14. 09. 1995. godine). M. J. (podaci u HMDCDR), Hrvat iz Gračaca koji je morao napustiti kuću i ići u kolonu pod prijetnjom da će biti ubijen, izjavio je da je jedna njegova susjeda bila ubijena zato što nije htjela ići u kolonu (HMDCDR, protokol 1269, od 1. 09. 1995. godine). Lj. I. (podaci u HMDCDR) iz okolice Gline kaže da se opirao ići u kolonu, pa su ga prebili vojnici RSK (HMDCDR, protokol 74, od 19. 01. 1996.). D. Ć. (podaci u HMDCDR) kaže da je krenuo u kolonu “zato što su bile zaostale grupe za teror” (HMDCDR, protokol 247, od 12. 03. 1996.). O sudbini srpskih izbjeglica koje je 8. kolovoza 1995. raketiralo srpsko zrakoplovstvo izvijestio je ljubljanski list Delo. http://www.hrt.hr/arhiv/oluja/950808/H080895174801.html Neki Srbi u izbjegličkim kolonama pregaženi su tenkovima, primjerice, čovjek kojeg je u “milicijskom” autu u Kninu prije dolaska Hrvatske vojske pregazio tenk SVK: ... Na desnoj strani putića (prema upravi Dizel depoa) našao sam jedan milicijski “stojadin”. Tragovi su ukazivali da ga je pregazio tenk. Bio je potpuno spljošten, a iz auta je virila ljudska noga. ... Krenuo sam dalje prema Komandi korpusa ... Ugledao sam jedan automobil “lada” ... u ladi su sjedila dva čovjeka u maskirnim uniformama Vojske RSK, stari oko 25-30 godina... Automobil je bio sa strane izrešetan mecima u visini grudnog koša. Tada još HV nije ušla u grad, pa ne znam kako su poginuli. Sigurno je da su ubijeni rafalnom paljbom. (HHO, Vojna operacija ’Oluja’ i poslije, str. 27). Poznata je priča da su tenkovi srpske vojske u povlačenju pregazili kolonu vozila srpskih izbjeglica na Banovini. Tako je govoreći o “tužnoj koloni od 32.000 izbjeglica” dopisnik Večernjih novosti iz Zagreba Milenko Predragović naveo da: “očevici tvrde da je tu tužnu kolonu izgazio tenkovima srpski general Mile Novaković, prilikom bežanja sa Petrove gore”. Dakako, on smatra da hrvatski mediji interpretiraju tu verziju s ciljem okrivljavanja “srpskog rukovodstva za sudbinu izbeglica”. Čak sugerira da je kolona pregažena “srpskim, ali zarobljenim tenkovima”. (Milenko Predragovi}, “Kolona izgažena tenkovima”, Večernje novosti, 14. VIII. 1995.) Da ta konstrukcija nije točna potvrđuju i sjećanja sudionika Oluje (HMDCDR, memoarsko gradivo). U prilog tome govori razgovor novinarke sa Srbinom izbjeglim iz Hrvatske: ... Dok mi priča (op. izbjegli Srbin) o brojnim samoubistvima na putu, pomrlim bebama i starcima, nedostatku hleba i vode, njegov strogi i vidno raspoloženiji kolega upozorava i njega i mene da to ništa nije za objavljivanje napominjući da je sve u redu, ali da je zabranjeno da se bilo šta o tome piše. Ko je zabranio, pitam, gospodin sleže ramenima i odlazi. Dalje se navodi: Jedan se stari ubio, dvadeset drugo godište. ... Sišao s puta u kukuruz i ubio se bombom... Srušen je most na Novoj Gradi i tu se jedna žena ubila. Kad smo naišli na most, ona se samo uhvatila za ogradu i bacila se jadna u vodu (“Progoni istočno od raja”, Intervju, br. 367, 25. 8. 1995., 5). U potresnoj priči Radmile Dragičević (34) navedeno je: U našoj koloni umrlo je pet beba i mnogo starih ljudi koje smo ostavljali kraj puta, jer nam je rečeno da će ih sakupljati Hitna pomoć. A Miloš Bradaš (39) navodi: Čovjek koji je ostao bez goriva u traktoru, valjda u nervnom rastrojstvu, pištoljem je ubio ženu i dvoje djece, pa sebe. Pokušali su ga spriječiti ali nisu uspjeli (“Ljudi s traktora”, Nin, 2329, 18. 8. 1995., 29). O kaosu u izbjegličkim kolonama Srba iz Hrvatske svjedoči i jedan izbjegli starac: U obruču u Topuskom, saznali smo da muslimani kod Gline kolju redom. Nastao je kaos, plač, jauk, naoružani i pijani vojnici prijete, dvojica su se ubila. Onda je policija s Korduna zavela red. Tukli su motkama.... (Milena Marković, “Kroz psovke i batine”, Večernje novosti, 15. VIII. 1995.). Svjedočanstvo 32-godišnje Višnje: ... U koloni smo bili od 5. do 10. avgusta 1995. godine. Stajali smo, ili se sporo kretali. Hrane smo imali, to što smo ponijeli, ali ja sam slabo mogla da jedem. Izgubila sam apetit zbog svega što nam se dogodilo. Čuli smo da su bili neki pregovori i da treba da krenemo dalje. Postrojili su nas, uredili kolonu (hrvatska milicija) i naredili da svi ostave oružje, jer sa oružjem ne može da se pređe granica. Dozvolili su da se izvuče benzin iz tenkova, koji su ostali, ali ne i da se prenese oružje. Neki ljudi nisu mogli da podnesu da se odvoje od oružja, pa su izvršavali samoubistvo. ...(Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, Beograd, 1996., 287). O tome svjedoče već medijski poznat primjer bake Danice Obradović (prikazan na “krajinskoj televiziji” nakon akcije Medački džep), ali i 27-godišnje udovice Marine, koja je u svojoj potresnoj priči, između ostaloga, navela: ... Pored moje kuće (selo Kašić u zadarskom zaleđu) bilo je jedno brdo sa kojeg smo mogli sve da vidimo ko nam prilazi. Tu je bio “broing” (browing). Ja sam sa “broinga” pucala. (...) “Broing” je inače protivavionac koji kosi sve. U njemu su ljudi namjestili metke, sve kako treba da stoji i ja sam onda rukovala njime. (...) Morala sam da mislim na svoju djecu. Ali kada nije bilo dovoljno muškaraca za seoske straže, ja nikada nisam odbila da budem na straži. ... (V. Nikolić-Ristanović, S. Konstantinović-Vilić, N. Mrvić-Petrović, I. Stevanović , B. Knežić, Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, Beograd, 1996., 79). I svjedočanstvo drugih žena upučuje na zaključak da je znatan broj civila u tzv. RSK, uključujući i žene, bio naoružan. Primjerice, u priči o svojoj tragediji i izbjegližšvu Neda (rođ. 1954.) je spomenula da je u zbjeg “ponijela sa sobom lično naoružanje, jer je to svatko imao” (Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, 263), a 55-godišnja Desanka je u istoj situaciji “zgrabila jednu torbu i stavila najnužnije stvari, te ponijela lovačku pušku, ali ne i dokumente” (Žene Krajine – rat, egzodus i izbeglištvo, 283).

More like "the evidence supporting your story is flimsy". Really? I'd say Serbia has much interest there. And you are right - people who are interested can see. Serbia supremacy sites are anything but reliable. Dude...I'm talking about the war in Croatia. How the frak can you claim Croatia barely saw any of the conflict that was going on deep inside it's borders? Until the actual NATO bombings started, you had it easy. It was your troops marching around and burning/pillaging inside another nations borders, not the other way around. Given that no Croatian soldier ever stepped foot inside Serbia, I'd say I'd bloody damn obvious who the aggressor was. Except there's nothing obvious there. I don't know what you're talking about given that practicly every general and political leader WAS on trial. Except...you know.. most of them were found not guilty. Hahahaha!

In soviet Russia, referendum votes on you!

I would travel back in time with the greatest Special Effect Holywood could produce, the finest of costumes from the finest of materials known to man and science. Then when I descend in my elaborate (and incredibly shiny) armor wielding a flaming sword, backed by angelic music blasting from hidden speakers, I'd declare myself King of the World. With my knowledge of advanced agriculture, medicine, metallurgy, etc, I'd become a walking god even without that, but hey.... gotta have drama. And traveling to the future? There is only one destination. The 40'th millenium!

That would kinda be impossible, given that there was no time before the Big Bang, therefore nothing before to return to witness it. Maybe you could return DURING it, but it would be beyond fatal.

Probably. Propaganda exists on both sides - this is a self-evident truth that you continue to ignore. I look into as many sources as I can. Serbian TV, Italian TV, Croatian TV, German TV, Al-Jazeera, AL-Iraya,CNN,BBC, etc... So when 19 out of 20 sources all say 1 thing (not in the same way, but still in general) then you're damn right I'm going to go them. Not to say that that Croatian news and foreign news always matched up, but in general they were closer and there was less obvious propaganda. Feel free to start with the world conspiracy theories 1) If I did, would it matter? Or would you just dismiss it like everything else? At least I make an effort of informing myself and have actually read your link. Then I went further and followed extra links and checked the references on those sites. Meanwhile, you're too lazy to do a google search. 2) Possible, but I personally find it unlikely. The real reasons I already stated. The history of the area, fear and RSK and YU pushing for it. 3) By today around140 000 of them have come back. 4) Where there even 1000? Serbia claims over 11000. Croatia reported around 240. The CHC sez 670. The ICTY investigations say 324. The old saying goes "the truth is usually in the middle". And the numbers we get are higher than what Croatia reported, but significantly lower than what Serbia claims. That still wouldn't incriminate the "west", given that in the event of a planned genocide (which it was not), the US leadership would have to have had complete knowledge. And lets not forget that it's Serbias interest to lie as well. Bloody hell, check the wiki. Or google. Heck, just check the historical demographic maps of Croatia - you should easily see a sudden and drastic change in the area of Krajina. While I agree that wikipedia isn't the greatest information source, it is one of the most neutral. Which is more than I can say for any source you provided. Also, you know a fun fact about the war in Croatia? It happened in Croatia. I could look out of my window and see it going on. Meanwhile, to you and most of Serbia it was something you only heard about on the news. So yeah, I kinda think I know a lot better what was going on in my backyard than you. I live here. I've seen it. And I heard stories too IN ADDITION to that. From people who have even less reason to lie. Now, I'm trying to be reasonable here, but it clearly isn't working, since you seem to have 0 interest in even looking at any piece of information that doesn't support your view. You seem unwilling to make even the slightest concession, or accept any blemish on blame of anything Serbian. The courts in Croatia have trialed and convicted over 2400 CROATS for crimes during the war. We are at least trying over here. How many Serbian war criminals have you convicted?

So America is lying, but Serbia isn't? And I did read your links (which mention 120+ shot down craft). And the links on those sites (which go into even higher numbers) I'd have to find them first and I have YouTube blocked on my work laptop. But you should be able to find them too, since they were used by the defense in ICTY. And as to why? Because RSK was loosing badly. Fear. and also because it would make Croatia look bad. Aloo, you seem to oh-so-conveniently completely ignore my last post on the previous page. Shall we refresh your memory? Lets. ******************************* The HV and the special police suffered 174–211 killed or missing, while the ARSK had 560 soldiers killed. Four UN peacekeepers were also killed. The HV captured 4,000 prisoners of war. The number of Serb civilian deaths is disputed—Croatia claims that 214 were killed, while Serbian sources cite 1,192 civilians killed or missing. During and after the offensive, 150,000–200,000 Serbs—or nearly the entire Serb population of the area formerly held by the ARSK—fled and a variety of crimes were committed against the remaining civilians there. The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) later tried three Croatian generals charged with war crimes and partaking in a joint criminal enterprise designed to force the Serb population out of Croatia; they were all ultimately acquitted and the tribunal ruling refuted the charges that Operation Storm was planned as a criminal enterprise. As of November 2012, the Croatian judiciary has convicted 2,380 persons for various crimes committed during Operation Storm. ADDITIONALY: At the beginning of the Croatian War of Independence, in 1991–1992, a non-Serb population of more than 220,000 was forcibly removed from Serb-held territories in Croatia, as the RSK was established (while this is true, the whole process started a decade earlier with soft pressure. Croats in the region find getting (and keeping) a job nearly impossible. Smear campaigns were conducted against them and pressure escalated) The number of civilian casualties in Operation Storm is disputed. The State Attorney's Office of the Republic of Croatia claims that 214 civilians were killed—156 in 24 instances of war crimes and another 47 as victims of murder—during the battle and in its immediate aftermath. The Croatian Helsinki Committee disputes the claim and reports that 677 civilians were killed during the same period,[213] however their report was rejected by the ICTY, when submitted as evidence, due to unsourced statements and double entries contained in the report.[214] Serbian sources quote 1,192 civilians dead or missing.[215] The ICTY prosecutors set civilian deaths at 324.[216] ********** Given the bolded listed above it's not hard to understand. The area of RSK was ethnicly cleansed before...and populated by hard-line Serbs who were equipped by the JNA. The second Croatia declared independance they started to fight and many a crimes were committed against non-Serbs. So yes, they feared reprisals, since many were involved and actively participted or passively supported. Add the RNK and JNA further stirring up fear and panic and ordering evacuations... My sources are far more credible than yours. Not some nationalistic webpages whose information no one doublechecks. I provided you with links and wikipedia articles.