TrashMan

Can you really be that simple? If an army is coming, you run away from it. The 1000 who didn't run obviously payed for it. It's not that simple and it's not correct. Otherwise you'd be seeing a mass exodus any time any army comes into any town. There are two things that can cause a mass exodus - panic (weather the danger is real or inflated) and coercion. And strangely, the CA didn't instigate either. You claim that the people ran away because they were afraid that the CA will be raping, burning and pillaging. The question is - from where does that fear stem from? If the people ran away before the CA came, then there was no town that was cleansed/burned/pillaged since they were vacant. And given the speed of advancement of the CA and the chaotic battlefield, there's no way that other towns/villages would have known and panicked/ran because of that even if that had happened. The speed and organization make it clear that the exodus was planned well in advance. Furthermore, there are signed orders from RSK about it, AND videos of YU and RSK officers ordering such an exodus. And I see you didn't answer my bolded question. Oh, and here I though it was you who repeats propaganda like a broken record. Nope, anyone who knows anything about the war can clearly see you are wrong. Nope. You said you passed trough and the bus didn't stop.

And yes, I very, very much doubt your sources. Some of the serbian information sites list 200-300 aircraft have been shot down. to put things in perspective: 129 helicopters and 24 fixed-wing aircraft have been reported by media to be lost in Iraq since the 2003 invasion till February 2009. 46 of these incidents have been attributed to hostile fire such as anti-aircraft artillery and surface-to-air missiles. In Afghanistan, up until today: Rotary-wing losses 124 (27 to hostile fire) Fixed-wing losses 38 (*7 to hostile fire while on the ground) Contract aircraft losses 26 (*2 to hostile fire) So in other words, you claim that the US lost more aircraft in the NATO bombings than in did in Iraq and Afghanistan COMBINED. ******** *********** *********** Also: 1999 (Operation Allied Force)March 27 – An F-117 Nighthawk (Serial Number : 82-0806) stealth ground-attack jet was shot down by a Serbian SA-3 surface-to-air missile during the Kosovo War; the pilot (Lieutenant Colonel Dale Zelko) survived and was subsequently rescued.May 1 – An F-16C Fighting Falcon (Serial Number : 88-0550) was shot down by a Yugoslav SA-3 SAM. The aircraft crashes near Šabac, in a rural area of Serbia; the pilot (Lieutenant Colonel David Goldfein) survived and was subsequently rescued.

Nope. Genocide implies force, targeted killings and deportation on a massive scale, and a rule of fear and terror. The CA didn't force anyone, if anyone was forcing departure it was the YU army. The people left BEFORE the CA came, so how could have the CA driven them out? So let me get this straight: If you and your buddies are heading towards a village and I spread the word around the village that you will kill them all and urge the people to leave (with a gun), then when the people do pack up and you walk into an empty village, you are to blame, not me? And it will get you nowehere, because the exact same piece of evidence was already used before. They are holding a grudge, but not anything like the Croats are doing. We have no problems in Bosnia... Given that you've never been in Croatia and that you apparently never even talked to a Croat, I find your assertions as to the amount of grudge Croats hold rather laughable.

Titanic by Michael Bay: http://i.imgur.com/dZivKdI.gif

B.t.w.: The HV and the special police suffered 174–211 killed or missing, while the ARSK had 560 soldiers killed. Four UN peacekeepers were also killed. The HV captured 4,000 prisoners of war. The number of Serb civilian deaths is disputed—Croatia claims that 214 were killed, while Serbian sources cite 1,192 civilians killed or missing. During and after the offensive, 150,000–200,000 Serbs—or nearly the entire Serb population of the area formerly held by the ARSK—fled and a variety of crimes were committed against the remaining civilians there. The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) later tried three Croatian generals charged with war crimes and partaking in a joint criminal enterprise designed to force the Serb population out of Croatia; they were all ultimately acquitted and the tribunal ruling refuted the charges that Operation Storm was planned as a criminal enterprise. As of November 2012, the Croatian judiciary has convicted 2,380 persons for various crimes committed during Operation Storm. ADDITIONALY: At the beginning of the Croatian War of Independence, in 1991–1992, a non-Serb population of more than 220,000 was forcibly removed from Serb-held territories in Croatia, as the RSK was established (while this is true, the whole process started a decade earlier with soft pressure. Croats in the region find getting (and keeping) a job nearly impossible. Smear campaigns were conducted against them) The number of civilian casualties in Operation Storm is disputed. The State Attorney's Office of the Republic of Croatia claims that 214 civilians were killed—156 in 24 instances of war crimes and another 47 as victims of murder—during the battle and in its immediate aftermath. The Croatian Helsinki Committee disputes the claim and reports that 677 civilians were killed during the same period,[213] however their report was rejected by the ICTY, when submitted as evidence, due to unsourced statements and double entries contained in the report.[214] Serbian sources quote 1,192 civilians dead or missing.[215] The ICTY prosecutors set civilian deaths at 324.[216] Order of the RSK Supreme Defence Council to evacuate civilians

your sources there are highly questionable. A serbian article claiming over 120 aircraft shot down. A rusian article claiming NATO is covering up it's loses. The only thing of any substance is that wikipedia article on the F-16 pilot. I'm "glad" that propaganda is still alive and well in Serbia. Do you know? As I said before - the civilians left long before the Croatian Army got there. There can be no talk of forced relocation or ethnic clensing. They weren't "chased away" You mean the same transcripts that were used during proceedings to prove a planned ethnic clensing? The same charge that was dropped? Ha I have. They still are. And you are telling me Croats or Bosnians were never attacked in Serbia after the war? Please, tell me another joke. You can't really be that naive to think absolutely NO ONE in Serbia was holding a grudge..ever.

http://i2.wp.com/memecollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/affleck-batman-meme.jpg

LOL to this: http://global3.memecdn.com/irish-stu-read-the-comments-and-you-will-go-on-adventure_o_1682507.jpg

Yeah, and I bet you stormed the White House too. I really don't have time to go hunting for the videos now, but I can try to find them later. Meanwhile, mayhaps you would like to prove proof of said military victories? Bored? What a silly strawman. They left for various reasons, chief of them that they were afraid and they were told to. And I don't recall ever saying that no Serbs died in the aftermath. It was a war after all, and in rural areas where you're less likely to get caught, you will have crimes commited. As for the transcripts..again, don't take things out of context. I did read it, but it provides no real evidence of anything. Because that simply isn't true, Croats work here, Croatian products are on our shelves, no Croatians cars are burned and it would be news. While when I went on a school trip to Italy the bus wouldn't stop in Zagreb because they feared we would get assaulted. Spread all the lies you want, I have proof to back up my stories. And Serbs live and work here. I'm living in a tourist town that gets lots of traffic, so there's plenty of Serbs passing trough or staying here all the time. I only recall 2 minor incidents in all these years. Given the massive amounts of propaganda Serbian TV uses, I wouldn't be surprised if similar incident never make it to the news there. As for you.. so the bus never even stopped? Therefore, you cannot even know if your fears were unfounded or not. So what proof do you exactly have? That's like me saying that my friend avoiding traveling trough Serbia proves that Serbs all want to kill us.

My information is correct and I remember very well what I watched. Interviews on serbian TV with serbian generals, telling tales of impossible victories against opponents that were never there. Multiple shot down aircraft or various types. Routed US ground troops. Etc, etc.. The propaganda was glorious. But I got to give it to the serbian populace, they stick together like glue and and defiant to the last. I still remember masses of civilians with targets painted on them during NATO bombings, and the blind sebian poet saying "even I saw it" when the serbians managed to shoot down a F-117. There is no shame in truth. And the truth is that there was no organized ethnic clensing. Now, I don't know what you think the line from Tuđman proves, because it doesn't prove anything. Operations Storm did deliver a hit to the YU army (a.k.a. Serbs) that it didn't recover from. And yes. They WERE told to leave. I can link a dozen videos of serbian generals and priests gathering people and ordering them to leave. And telling them horror stories of what the CA would do to them. The Croatian Army didn't gather serbs and force-marched them into Serbia. There can be no talk of ethnic clensing if the army in question didn't force civilians into anything. The entire train of thought is redicolous. Serbs are innocent little lambs that hold no grudges and everything is rainbows and sunshine in Serbia, while Crotia is a cess pool of hate? Yeah, right. Would a story of serbians torching a croats car even make it on the news there? I seriously doubt it. Funny how there are serbs in my town right now and no one is bothering them. Why don't you just admit that there are still people in both countries that have issues, but as a general rule you won't find lynch mobs. Because that's the truth of it. Most people have either moved on or have enough self-control not to do stupid things.

1) There were two groups of d*** - comunists and fascists. They hated eachother with a passion and during the short time they grabbed power they were at eachothers throats. Alas, they were both paranoid and power-hungry, so they pretty much purged everyone who didn't fall with their party line. They were even mass executing priests and burning down churches. Thankfully the croatian people had enough of their bulls*** and they can't repeat that stuff again. Buut.. they are still both heavily into politics, so you can find them stealing and lying their asses. Our political landscape is therefore a mess of corruption and incompetence... but at least no more secret police and killings. 2) I was talking in more general terms about the war in the YU and how it started. My knowledge of the war in Bosnia is not first-hand, given that I didn't leave Croatia during it. Propaganda? I'd say the true masters was Serbia. I watched serbian news during the war. And croatian. And foregin ones. The interviews with serbian generals claiming to have captured a division of US infantry or shooting down multiple US planes. Gold. I was laughing my ass off. And yes, those people packed up and left. Because the YU army told them to leave. Ordered them in fact. And probably told them that the CA army will kill them all. Not sure if that counts as "of own free will", but it's not the CA that forced them. And because they feared reprisals - some of them justly, given what they did. Quite a few of those civilians grabbed a weapon and started shooting their neighbours the second the war started. Hate? For Milošević, for the government, for the military.. probably. For Serbia as a country, for the people? Not at all. People were lied to en-masse. I had great serbian friends before the war and I still have them. As for the rest...I hate to call you a liar, but that is simply not true.

1) That was the short-lived puppet-state (of germany and italy) NDH, which promptly (and thankfully) collapsed. It was a brutal regime that was only possible because of the two axis powers. It is estimates that 200.000 serbs and 30.000 jews were killed, with an unknown number of croats. Anyone and anything that was deemed a threat to the regime was removed. Within 4 years due to the heavy resistance and allied intervention it finally ceased existing. It's a blight on Croatias history. Ironicly, there are still fascists and communists groups present that fight in the political landscape to this day. They mostly just embezzle/steal and keep blaming the other side for everything. 2) Worse? Hardly. Overblowing things much? Of course they accepted. Croatia was shafted in Yugoslavia. Positions of power were held by Serbs. Money was going to Serbia. It was a federation in name only. "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo" (brotherhood and unity) my ass! The entire war was started by serbs. The paramilitary brigades they armed and trained? The planned de-population of specific areas (Krajina) and then bringing in the most hard-line serbs? The process done by driving people away with both soft and hard methods (from making life impossible for croats in those areas by economical/legal means to downright violence and threats) The barricades and unrests engineered by them. The ambush massacre of the police force sent to dismantle the barricades? What a joke. the Croatian army had nothing. It was short of everything - officers, guns, ammo, veichles. Everything was held by the YU army, which was controlled by the serbs. And despite that, the mighty YU army was utterly defeated. The Srebrenica massacre, also known as the Srebrenica genocide[7][8][9][10][11][12] (Bosnian: Genocid u Srebrenici), was the July 1995 killing of more than 8,000[1][13][14][15][16]Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica during the Bosnian War. The killing was perpetrated by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić. In 2004, in a unanimous ruling on the case of Prosecutor v. Krstić, the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), located in The Hague, ruled that the massacre of the enclave's male inhabitants constituted genocide, a crime under international law.[24] The forcible transfer of between 25,000 to 30,000 Bosniak women, children and elderly which accompanied the massacre was found to be confirming evidence of the genocidal intent of members of the VRS Main Staff who orchestrated the massacre.[25] Ethnicly cleansed? No, there was no ethnical clensing. The 200 000 that left, left under the order or the YU army - and there's more then enough video evidence of YU commanders going around villages and ordering the people to leave. The Croatian army had nothing to do with it. Unless you count fear of the army, but that is not clensing. the CA didn't drag people out of their homes and forced them to march to Serbia. Of course, there was looting and murder, but that is what happens in such heated wars, especially in large rural areas where oversight is hard. It was not planned or organized on any scale

More regular humor then: PICS: https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422953_477373455617004_1945547197_n.jpg http://i43.tinypic.com/24uxatw.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/994326_511659512252134_1910508982_n.jpg https://sphotos-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q71/1151037_506044479478790_1131911261_n.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/533195_209307545901579_1994367768_n.jpg http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/funny-fails-28.jpg http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20130820/640/relationship_640_20.jpg http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o636/webslinger73/3f80137d44d7d104aa9071fe85b31459_zps156284a2.jpg http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5327/9583920687_f98b81f704_o.jpg http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/dethklokdan1991/media/new/7_zps62d5b35e.jpg.html https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q71/1234945_568115499916065_796442796_n.jpg GIFS: http://i.imgur.com/yi3RG.gif http://31.media.tumblr.com/fe8f71a2894898bed5abbc73b065898a/tumblr_mqfqaaBNU71rtyihjo1_400.gif http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/9567336018_dd616c042d_o.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/a7273e93fbe85d91baf3c514dd8c6420/tumblr_ms145qHl9E1qdlh1io1_400.gif http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/a3ydlm7_460sa.gif?w=400&h=270 http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/pacman-game-over-gif.gif

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Warechicken.

Well, if they have a gazzilion of them, who's to say that haven't put a few aside for...other purposes.

And I put it to you that your slackened 'morality' is just your last ditch attempt to bolster your senss of cognitive dissonance. You can't justify your position but you refuse to abandon it? Have you never tried to dissuade someone from pursuing a course of absolute idiocy? If you have, what possible authority can one use apart from brute force, if not logic? So you postulate that if I'm not declaring my moral code from the top of the tallest building, if I'm not vigorously imposing on others, that I don't really have one? My morality is "slackened"? If I were to throw myself into battle to enforce my morals, strapped with TNT, what would that make me? How far must I go with it in order for it to be acceptable to you? Where do you draw the line? And if my moral beliefs are that I must not force my morals on others, how does that work then? How can I stay true to my morals if I enforce them? It's an oxymoron. Like fighting for tolerance by not tolerating anyone who isn't as tolerating as you. Ideals ultimatively cannot survive untouched in this world. But I digress. While I may personally believe in objective morality, I fail to see how can that stop me from discussing things from different viewpoints.

Of course...from your point of view.

Precisely. Everyone is convinced he is in the right and justified. Everyone has reasons why they think/believe what they do. Everyone operates on the same basic principles. It basicly boils down to "my views and morals are better than yours". I'm just being honest here. I don't call the intervention good, even if it's result would be good. Two wrongs may make a right, but it's still two wrongs. If I had to kill one person to save ten, I'd do it. But I wouldn't go around saying that specific action was a "good" and "moral" thing. I don't even think those words apply anymore to such complex things.

Refugees from BSN. Be afraid. Be very afraid.