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Great update! Just wanted to add something about the dialogue window which I didn't see mentioned. Imho, its width in the screenshot is just perfect relative to the text size (fitting about 15-20 words per row) and I think it should stay similar to that, irrelevant of screen size / resolution / dpi. When trying to fit more text in you can get something like this, which is very unreadable (and it only gets worse with solid blocks of text): (Sabotin showed this image for a different reason but it is very illustrative for what I mean) Ideally the dialogue window would be able to expand / contract not only vertically but horizontally as well. This way people who want to fit all the possible text can expand it to the maximum while those who care for readability would be able to keep the amount of content per row the same as it is in the inn image. As for the way the dialogue window re-sizes (or any other other window)... I may be alone here but dragging the edge of a UI window immediately brings the feeling I am on the desktop, resizing a folder window. Also, imagining how the image of the bottom plank just slides out from underneath the vertical border... ugh. It screams "Tiled Image, Image Crop, Practical UI" in your face. Not very immersive. A button that expands it instead would be a lot better. Or at least do not show the changes in the UI while it is being dragged. Just the original and final version. Also, fixed increments! This makes it feel like the "wood frame" has been replaced with another one, rather than "adjusting the UI" (a solid sound when doing this would make it even better). A nice little extra: a button somewhere on the wooden frame that switches between the last two versions the window was when you pressed it. (Memorise size/pos, switch to the previously memorised size/pos.) This way you can pick and adjust two favourites and easily switch between them when needed (say, the one on the screenshot and just a bit wider, much higher version; or the one on the screenshot and a same-height, much wider version; or between a high narrow size and a low wide size, etc.). Handy!

Yes, I like the shadows in the tech demo. They appear somehow more natural than the last screenshot. I thought the reason for this was that in the screenshot the shadows were a bit too thin and disconnected from the characters. I made "thicker" and more connected shadows. Otherwise the shadows I drew, the ones in the tech demo and the ones on the screenshot are all the same - shadows cast from one fixed ambient light. As for shadows from dynamic lights... same thing. It just increases the number of shadows and changes the direction(s) it comes from (well, and the projection of the shadow). My comment would only mean to say to still keep the shadows more connected and thicker/solid than the ones from the screenshot.

Loving the last update, just one thing jars me a bit - the shadows of the characters make them seem out of place. One poster mentioned in the update thread the shadows need to be more solid around the legs - as the small distance to the ground allows for less dissipation. Another poster mentioned as a last resort the Fallout style shadows under the figures. IMHO all these have two advantages over the shadows from the PE screenshot: They give a very solid base for the figures. No appearance of floating at all. Also, they never feel out of place (irrelevant of the direction the light is supposed to come from - as in the last two images) Here is a quick edit of the PE image with similar flat shadows for the party. 50% opacity black, following the shapes of the models (this was traced by hand after removing the original shadows and was a lousy effort). They should be very easy to achieve in-game (way easier than the current ones, I imagine). While they appear maybe even less "correct" (and more technologically "old") they seem, at least to me, to fix to a large degree the "out of place" look of the characters. The image also darkens the bottom part of boots. This makes feet appear further away than the upper body and not in the air (there was a good explanation about this effect in a Shadowrun Returns update or article somewhere). This makes the figures a bit less "float"-y, too. The changes should be the most obvious with the party member that is the lowest on the screen, as the ground there is mostly one colour and it is easy to see the shadow. Picking a different angle so the shadows are even a bit shorter should improve the effect. In summary: More solid shadows make the characters appear properly anchored to the environment instead of "floating". Darker shoes (less reflective of dynamic lights) makes them appear on the ground, not in the air. Do you agree? Does this version of the image make the party appear a bit more natural or is it just me?

Yes, I like yours a lot better, although it would make sense only if the danger is real. Otherwise the majority of knowledgeable people would buy tons of magic items to sell to other knowledgeable people and high demand in the world would still exist. Real danger of ... fragmenting your soul ... into the magic items? Or something similar. Makes more sense in the game world, allows for the item valuation bit, and trounces Buba.

This intends to provide a streamlined mechanic to make magic items useable throughout the game within pre-decided boundaries (also, a money sink). The short version: Every magic weapon can be attuned to a character's soul (PC's or NPC's) for a fee, which unlocks the ability of the weapon to increase its usefulness over time, only for that specific PC/NPC. Increase of usefulness happens over time from use. Tiered, as to spread the cost and rewards of the attunement over the duration of the game. Costly, to make the item feel more special. Also, very important, increases usability of weaker items more than it does for stronger items. And longer version: Every magical weapon could be attuned to the soul of one person. A very specific process, it needs to be done by a master. It is costly. Attunement of higher quality items is more difficult and requires more gold. Attunement does not degrade over time. Further attunements are possible. How it works (Using DnD-like numbering): A very cool (likely unique, but not necessarily) Cool Sword +1 is attuned to the PC for a fee. The sword has the same damage as it did before the attunement: let's say 3 to 6. However, over time, with use, the sword's basic damage increases to 3.1 to 6.1 (only when being used by the PC). Then, after more use: 3.2 to 6.2. And so on until it goes through 3.9-6.9 to 4.0-7.0 basic damage. It turns into Cool Sword +1 +1 for the PC through the attunement. Let's say that the highest enchantment for the game is +6. Each individual weapon can be given specific maximum values for the total achievable attunement. The Cool Sword +1 could get attuned to up to 4.0-7.0, attuned again to max of 5.0-8.0 and so on for four attunements when the total is equal to Cool Sword +5. A NotSoCool Sword +1 might be allowed five attunements to become NotSoCool Sword +6. Another UniqueButQuiteAverage Dagger +4 could be attuned two times to a max of the equivalence of UniqueButQuiteAverage Dagger +5.5. If an items is found as UberCool DreiHander +5, then for a huge pile of gold it could be attuned so that it would take ages to get to +5.1. Maximum from the first attunement could be only +5.2. And another very expensive attunement could be possible for a maximum of +5.3. And no more. An item's utility could counterweight the maximum allowed attunement. This could be just one streamlined mechanic to make a unique item continually usable. Forging items like in BG2 could be another present system: anything forge-able cannot be attuned (recipes, this should probably be for the "best" items, done by a master blacksmith). Item upgrades by crafting (recipes, done by PC) is yet another. Also, the items do not sell for more after attunement - they are only more useful to the person they are attuned to and nobody else. They are exactly the same as in the beginning, with just one more effect "+x basic damage while used by ..." Also, they could be attuned to a second adventurer, losing their current attunement and starting from beginning with the new person. What do you think? How does this stack against or alongside the other upgrade systems?

This is a magic item valuation system which aims to make the game economy sustainable. It applies for merchants but has far reaching consequences on the world design. In short: Merchants pay very little for magic items and there is a good in-world (lore) reason for it.In not short: Non-magic equipment is bought and sold as usual - with some markup by merchants but not much (e.g. PC buys Mail for 200, sells for 140). Magic equipment is traded at extremely high markup (buy Mail+1 for 1000, sell for 20) because: In the game world everyone knows it is dangerous to keep (quality) magic items in the near vicinity because there is a chance a deadly creature "Buba" appears and kills everyone in sight - world lore, not a game mechanic (or possibly one that is off by default but can be switched on). The higher amount of magic concentrated in one place, the higher chance of "Buba" happening and there is no known way to avoid it. The magic items may or may not disappear. This makes demand for them as general merchandise very low. Most merchants have up to 4-5 weak magic items, as they see it as not too risky. They do not really want to buy more stuff. They sell rarely but at very high prices. They do not need extra magic around, so they are not interested to re-stock with magic items from you, unless it is at very, very low price. Most merchants refuse to buy highly enchanted items like +2 or +3 and up (there would be some demand for these, but the risk of keeping them around would be too high). There are merchants who deal with high magic, but they ask for high prices yet pay very little. Since they control the demand (you can sell only to them, and you can buy only from them) and they know it, they set the prices as they see fit. As a result, the player cannot make much money selling magic equipment and needs to spend a lot to purchase said equipment. Lots of extra stuff (read only if you're brave): The "High Magic merchants" have specially built stores. They use constructs to fetch equipment and sell these items by description (the game interface would be the same but a "drawn picture" show in the Sell slot, rather than an image of the item itself). They generally keep stock deep underground or have stores at desolate places. You need to wait for the item to be delivered by a construct at a specific location so the merchant is safe. They can be trusted, as the ones who exist have built themselves a reputation. There is no guarantee the items are available all the time. E.g. you could order an item, wait for it, then meet the merchant instead of the construct to get told by the angry merchant the construct has been completely destroyed and the item is missing, then get your money refunded. There should be no way to protect against Buba, as this would make the whole thing pointless. Buba can detect it, and if detected, Buba will destroy. Item magic strength should be easily detected by everyone with common devices made for that purpose. Each merchant would have these, as would many others. Magic items left in populated areas would disappear, even from containers (people would locate them, identify them and quickly get rid of them). There could be low-lifes who get rid of the items for a fee. One thing that would be missing would be the knowledge of the item's worth. This can be fixed by the availability to deposit an item for safe keeping with a High Magic Merchant. Higher quality items would cost more to keep safe until your return. An annual fee could be the item's worth in usefulness (what it would cost if Buba was not). Inn fees would increase as your equipment quality increases (less safe for the owner). Some would refuse a room when too much magic is worn. It could be possible to significantly decrease the risk of Buba by, say, keeping the items between huge solid blocks of (lead/gold/something). The idea is that they can be stored somehow more safely, but this cannot be transferred outside of a display room - you cannot carry around tons of lead/gold/something-else just so you can use safely your Light-weight Bow of Quick Movement. Also, this lead/gold/something-or-other should not be available to almost anyone, so it is off-limits for normal merchants. Possible upgrade for the stronghold - to make a magic item treasury / display room. To use the merchant item depository until then. Buba could appear in game, but it needs to be optional and when enabled, the chance of seeing that should be something like once in a few play-throughs. Very rare. But when it appears it should kill the party. People would hate that, so probably a better idea is to see another adventuring party, which was freshly Bubabbed. Legs and hands about with the stuff between missing, etc. And of course, the diary page entry about the fantastic magic item they had just found and can't wait to use. Creatures like dragons, undead, etc, could be safe from Buba, but not any player race. Almost forgot - trading between adventurers could be possible. But item/s for item/s - and it is only stuff you can take from them anyway, so no gold is gained.. Buba as a reason for this item valuation would provide good economy control but would need a lot of the lore in the world re-thought and changed. Probably there are better reasons which do not need to affect the lore as much. Also, "Buba" is only optional as official name of Buba within the game

SadOldMagician, really nice to see your post. There’s been very few in this thread so far suggesting that what I wrote wasn’t in Martian. Weird how easily this gets misunderstood, indeed. Must be the length of the posts. I guess most people either don’t bother reading them or fall asleep by my babbling even if they try… Thanks for giving a nice short version of the most important bits. ddillon, Wench… what I suggest is not what you think it is. Difficult to explain without another wall of text. Please read the previous posts if you are interested. SadOldMagician gave a good short version, but the details are quite lengthy… redneckdevil, yes, quality comes first, I was trying to build on that in terms of saleability covering one particular (very wide-spread) scenario.

A few thoughts on what I see as a good (useable) feature to convert a pirated P:E copy to a game key sale (that is all, not “trying to magically solve the whole piracy issue”). Hopefully these points should help discussing my suggestion in more detail or to think of better alternatives. 1. It should not upset any user in any way (As mentioned by many in this thread). Not at all upsetting to buyers *and* pirates. 2. It should have an enjoyable / useful purpose separate from bringing revenue. In other words, people should enjoy using it, irrelevant of whether they want to buy a key or not. 3. It should not mention pirates. Mentioning pirates inside the game (addressing them directly) acknowledges them as part of the target audience. This makes them believe it’s ok to pirate. If they think that, they would have a lesser incentive to give any money to developers. 4. It should avoid the “support” theme. Offering the user to support the game will most likely be perceived as asking for a donation. “Support” button (or a whole inventive feature around it) would resonate with a small sub-set of all pirates. A more useful feature would address a much bigger part of all pirates. That said, support button is a good idea, it just needs to be separate from other revenue features. 5. It should give a pirate a good reason to want to buy the game. This reason needs to be the introduction of something positive rather than trying to avoid something negative (limitations, etc). 6. It should not be seen as trying to sell the game (or other content). Pirates once refused to pay for content by downloading it for free, they would just refuse again. 7. It should make it very easy and straight-forward to pay for a game key. 8. It should not be demanding on development resources. (9. Is quantifiable. Not strictly necessary, but being able to judge its usefulness would help down the line.) I believe all these requirements should be met by a feature that is worth putting into P:E. Again, what I am describing is a feature that aims to make a pirate buy the game after they downloaded it, not a feature that “attempts to fix piracy”. I believe my suggestion (patchily described in all my posts so far) addresses all of these. Any ideas on how to improve on any of these points, any points I have missed, or alternative suggestions that address these better? -------- Again, some comments on some posts: @Sistergoldring “tie in some positive emotion to becoming a 'purchaser' and making it incredibly easy for them to buy the game” - Great way to put it in just a few words. Thanks! @Lephys and babaganoosh13 Very creative ideas! Unfortunately, maybe just a tiny bit impractical. @mokona Very good point and a great example. @AGX-17 If you had looked hard at the unreadable text in the picture you might have noticed that it is this. Its sole purpose is to be unreadable. If you had read my posts you would have noticed that what you say is not at all what I am suggesting. @Boo’s Bother Hoo Just did the same... Epic. @Ieo I believe people “whose goal in life is to spend as little as possible as a point of pride” would not represent a big portion of all pirates. These few are an issue that cannot be resolved, so I am trying to affect all other pirates. I agree with the rest of what you say, this is why I am trying to figure out revenue features that do not upset customers at all (this means no DRM or micro-transactions). Edit: Typo.

Like the spirit.

Just throwing out a few quick (not necessarily good) ones: - Inquisition-type seat of power who offs all the Da Vinchi-s. With magic, strong souls that could lead progress could be easily found and ... displaced, used for other things, etc. - Gunpowder enhancement could be developed that destroys the soul as well as wounding the body - all gunpowder gets outlawed, progress in this direction is halted. - Gods do not allow it (inquisition-style or for completely different reasons) - Steam-powered apparatus (and thus, to a degree, autonomous - can move by itself) could get taken over by wandering souls - steam progress is cut off. And so on...

Art direction, water trick, dynamic shadows (especially from the character onto the river stones!), models... all is just... inspiring! Nice to hear that some of the issues mentioned are due to compression and the others are being worked on. WIP it may be but it's already looking amazing! Wish we could see the video in maximum quality with no blurring, too. Any chance we can get the uncompressed video on legittorrents.info or something similar (useful + legal)?

One thing I hadn’t managed to put in words (oh, my…) is how the psychological dynamics of this feature work. I think it is very important to note that paying for the game is not the end goal of that feature. The goal is to let you identify with one of these in-game lore characters (that represent the KS digita/physical backer/GoG buyer/Steam buyer). Buying a key for the game is just a way to get to that goal. Also, it is works on a subconscious level - how you perceive yourself and what you identify with. You cannot cheat that even if you steal a key. Usually a purchase is offered. Offers you receive are scrutinised and easily rejected. This feature does not offer anything. However, it lets you achieve your goal if you have not paid for the game - by buying it. Buying it on your own accord - impulse / desire that is not higlhy scrutinised. ------ And just in case somebody reads this post but has not read all my other posts (it would be an achievement by now, must be thousands of words): This thread is only about a specific feature that brings revenues from a pirated DRM-free version of P:E *without using any DRM*. DRM is irrelevant! Also, this thread does not try to solve the big bad piracy issue! Please do not turn the thread in general piracy and DRM good/bad discussion. Please comment on my suggestion or let’s find some alternative! Alternatives (/supplements) suggested so far: Loading screens with unintrusive messages (thanking backers, not addressing pirates); main menu support button linking to GoG/steam store ------ As for what you said… @ Iucounu Yes, laziness is a big factor, so feature should make it very easy to get a key (visible invitation + 1 or 2 clicks to see “Buy” button). About the problem you mention: I don’t think it is an issue because piracy is not mentioned in this feature at all. It serves an in-game purpose for all buyers; it is not there to be nice to pirates. @ Lephys “your idea tries to affect what can be affected” – as you said, it’s pointless to do otherwise. About the loading screens, I like the idea in general but I think it should avoid things like “Liking this game and somehow got it for free? …” Said loading screens should inspire support from all, instead of obviously showing pirates the screens are for them and to make them pay. About the café case: truly interesting. That’s what we need to do, too. Try completely new things rather than trying new types of DRM @Boo’s Brother Hoo By intro screen I guess you are talking about a message by itself? Yup, agree that it would be annoying. Button in main menu seems good. Could be useful. However, it just asks you to pay. What I suggested gives you a subconscious reason to want to pay. And yes, a quest could be fun with the skilled writers we have . @ necromate I know! I suck at explaining things concisely… Just imagine if I fully quoted people when addressing them! @ oneda Yup, quality is the most important thing. I trust Obsidian will deliver quality and will grab people’s hearts with it. Just trying to figure out some ways to help them grab some deserved cash with it, too @ babaganoosh13 Yes, some will steal, no matter what. But this is irrelevant. 1 in 10 could pay. 1 in 10 multiplied by 500,000... now that is something. As for DRM: yes, DRM is bad. P:E will be DRM-free (confirmed). My suggestion has nothing to do with DRM. @ Sensuki What I was trying to address was getting the pirate to the shop in the first place. But yes, definitely true, once we’ve managed that, pricing (price-mathcing, etc) would play its role. @ Hormalakh Honest discussion is good and needed but it tries to tackle a bigger issue (piracy). What I was going for is an inventive way to bring some extra revenue alongside the honest discussion. Also, honest discussion in the game itself in a way condones piracy. @ Freentic Pony Would be great wouldn’t it? “Make money from the pirates”. And pirates are just customers who do not pay. Make money from customers… makes sense, right! Edit: Typo

Lephys... I am not sure whether you didn't read what I wrote, whether you just decided to tackle piracy in general anyway, or whether I just completely fail to communicate what I mean by my suggestion (I am getting increasingly sure in that). But I guess I get what I deserve with a topic title like this. I just decided to ignore DRM and not mention it, expecting that people will see that my suggestion has nothing to do with DRM and discuss what I suggested (instead of DRM). Also, I should have mentioned explicitly that this suggestion does not try to solve the big bad piracy problem. It just tries to "convert P:E pirated copies to game key sales" as per the title, and in so doing increasing revenue. I guess I need to ask a moderator to change the title to the more representative "Converting P:E pirated copies to game key sales *without using any DRM*". Although even with this I guess I am missing something obvious. And for the sport, let me try to explain again what I am aiming for, this time using your analogy. Obviously, in our case, Obsidian is already a kitten (by releasing the game DRM-free). My suggestion has a very specific purpose. I am trying to reach the people who don’t pay much thought on how they walk and kick the kitten just by walking the way they do. What I am trying to do is make the kitten get their attention and get pet (turning the pirated copy into a game sale). I am not trying to make them not kick it in the first place (reducing piracy) because this is how they are. I am not trying to make them pet the kitten by hissing and biting and running around (done by DRM, copy protection). All want to do is to make the kitten say “Meow” and wait in place (this screen suggestion). Some people will kick it again, some people will just look down and walk on, some people will stop and pet the kitten (I assume many, how many: the topic of this whole thread). Getting to these people who would stop and pet the kitten is the only purpose of this suggestion. Without this screen (or something similar), there is no Meow, kitten just walks off without even being noticed. With the Meow, people stop and think about it. (No annoyind kids throwing eggs whatsoever.) Damn, another looooong post. I guess that's why nobody reads what I'm writing . But here it goes: DRM (for a single player game) - Evil, as we all know, useless, as widely accepted. vs. My screen suggestion - *Not DRM*, not copy protection. Monetisation of an already pirated DRM-free single player game (due to the inability to affect the number of pirated copies). (or the alternative to "vs." title: "Why my suggestion is *not DRM* and why it could possibly work"): 1. Backer / buyer friendliness DRM - People hate it (understatement) vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - Makes backers / buyers feel good 2. Perception of a game with this feature from pirates (read there "potential customers") DRM - "This cr*p is the actual reason I pirate the game itself, so I don't need to have it on my PC." vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - People like it, it is part of the game (the kickstarter origins of the game is a good reason for the feature to exist). People also like the game better for the absence of DRM. 3. Resources DRM - Heavy on development costs (the always online cr*p, .exe wrappers, third party DRM software, etc.) vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - Uses in-game resources (a few small maps, literally one screen big and some in-game characters). Very low development costs. 4. Making people not pirate the game (i.e. get the game for free) (for a single-player game) DRM - If very lucky, gives some breathing space first day or two but is generally completely useless. vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - My suggestion has nothing to do with this. It does not attempt to stop pirating a game... because it would fail (like DRM fails). 5. Providing opportunity to a person who has pirated the game to purchase the game DRM - DRM does not do this. DRM hates people and makes their lives miserable. Why bother helping out with access to developer/publisher/gog/steam/whatever store. vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - Gives extremely easy access to a store where the game can be bought (quick access, easy payment). 6. Giving a reason to actually buy the game DRM - None. It does the opposite. It gives reasons to pirate the game and not pay for it due to hatred towards the publisher vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - On the screen there are four characters to pick from. People who bought a key identify with one of these characters. It feels good. People who have not paid for a key (even if they downloaded a pirated key) can select a character (even if they do not have any key at all) and see exactly the same thing on the screen as the people who paid for a key. However, it does not feel good because they cannot truly identify with that character. The text takes care of that (needs to be written well). They know that they can feel good and be proud if they buy the game. It is extremely easy to check how much the game costs. They just click on the small (text or image) link that opens a browser to the game page in the corresponding shop (GoG or Steam). They will probably even click on it just because it is there. They can pick who to identify with (GoG or Steam character) and decide to purchase that key. They might decide that they want to identify with a "backer" character and even support the next kickstarter (ok, that's mostly wishful thinking on my part... also, clearly expressed intention for future implementations of this feature in next games would be needed for that). 7. ***Increasing revenues (the main issue)*** DRM - Counts on stopping people pirating the game in order to "increase revenue". What actually happens: Game gets pirated. DRM has already been bypassed. DRM is not even in the picture. No increase in revenue. vs. Screen suggestion (Not DRM) - Counts on people buying the game once they have it (once they pirate it). What actually happens: Game gets pirated. The backer/buyer selection screen (or whatever you want to call it) gets liked and used. People get back to it throughout the game. Nobody forces them to use the screen, they use it because it looks great. People think about game stores, kickstarter and buying the game just because of using the screen (whether they want to think about these or not). Anywhere between negligible and large scale (?) increase in revenue (fully quantifiable if implemented, as explained before). This sums up why DRM discussion and "stopping piracy" have nothing to do with this suggestion, why it seems viable for increasing revenues (by unknow but quantifiable degree), and how it benefits the game even if there is zero revenue coming from it (net result would be making backers/buyers feel good about themselves, at the expense of very low development costs). I feel I am getting a bit overzealous with trying to explain this whole thing. Sorry if this post is a bit annoying It would actaually be very nice if somebody tells me that it is just plainly a bad idea. Not going into piracy and DRM but just into that backer/buyer screen and why it would not succeed in convincing sufficiently many people who pirated the game to pay for it. It would help me stop spamming walls of text, which is all I seem to be doing in this thread.

I know what you mean . Frickin Diablo 3, why did I buy it... Anyway. This is why this suggestion is not about DRM. It does not employ any kind or DRM, it is light on development resources and it would make buyers / backers feel good (DRM makes buyers feel bad). It makes the purchase of a game key easy and reminds people that it's worth buying a key (or suggest buying a gift). This is all it does. Yup, I remember what being a student feels like. Don't worry it is just a temporary condition . Tough luck about that state, though. Any people I know who studied in Germany did so for free. It is great that you intend to support the game once it's out and spread the word . Obsidian will need that, we are their marketing team, too.

@ GrinningReaper659 Fair enough. Just not sure about the word "pointless" before attempt to combat piracy. As I said already, I do not know how effective this whole separate screen can be. Maybe it would not convert even one person. Actually, this should be quite easy to check. The game should be able to pass a reference when it opens GoG's website or Steam, so it should be easy to get exact numbers (with some cooperation from GoG / Steam, which I imagine would be happy to - more revenues for them). Of people who clicked, of people who purchased. Would that be worth it then? Some resources spent on a quantifiable, possibly pointless, attempt to introduce a whole new buisness model to monetise pirated DRM-free games (not sure about his, maybe somebody tried, I haven't head of any similar attempts). As for the simple message... yes, it looks like a very good idea to me, too. I hope if anything, they will put at least something like this. Any ideas how to make that more effective? @ DocDVD I do not uderstand the idea that it's fine not to get profit from the game just because it was Kickstarted. Do you guys want P:E 2 to have a budget of ~$4 million from another Kickstarter, or do you want it to have a budget of (randomly) $10 million - from another Kickstarter and revenues from P:E.

@ Iucounu I appreciate that a critique should allow an opportunity to be defended but please can we forget about piracy in general and DRM? There are many things worth saying about these topics but can we please try to do this in another thread? This is why I asked in the beginning if we can avoid talking about these general topics. Could we have this potential problem to solve: Some guy/girl (let's say Alex) has somehow gotten P:E (irrelevant how) and is playing it and is enjoying it (the genuine game, no DRM, etc). Unfortunately for Obsidian, Alex has not paid for the game. Now, how the game can convince all the Alexes to pay for that awesome game that they are thoroughly enjoying (by the way, Alex has enough money to pay for the game if s/he so desires). In that light, could we discuss my suggestion, or maybe offer alternatives (like the text in the main menu or loading screens giving thanks for supporting a crowd-funded, no-publisher project)?

Fair point about the resources. I am not sure how many people could be converted from pirates to buyers. I'm thinking it is a lot but I could be very wrong. If I am right though, any returns from this feature would increase resources for the expansion and any furhter games. If it is included and it works it can be tweaked and included next games. Not sure how much the returns would be, but seems like a possibility for a lot of extra resources. Isn't that worth considering? Maybe like 100 million will stop lying? Maybe 700 million will not lie for a week? Again, I do not know how effective this can be. Maybe it is far from worth it. More opinions please? Ok, let's forget about my monetisation suggestion and look for something nice that can be added to the game instead. How about 5-6 great art screens (say, cave, forest, great city, some fantastic plane) that are designed for us backers. And some text that would make us feel good about backing P:E. And that would make buyers from GoG and Steam feel good, too. And some cool characters that we would be happy to identify with. 5-6 screens, when the game itself should be hundreds of these big. And some in-game character models, already done and just differently equipped. Should not be very resource-heavy. Wouldn't that be worth it? If if just so happens that this feature can also help with getting more returns on the game, well, all the better, right? Edit: Changed the numbers to what I meant in the first place

I am sorry for all the repetition in this post, I just really want to stress on a few points. And again, sorry for the looong text. Can we please forget about any kind of DRM or copy protection? People will probably pirate the GoG DRM free version. This + a key makes it a genuine copy. *Every pirated copy will be a genuine copy which has not been paid for*. Let’s forget about possible copy protection measures as they will not be included. This has been confirmed by Obsidian. As the thread title states, this is an attempt to convert a pirated copy (genuine DRM-free copy that has not been paid for) to a copy that has been paid for (exactly the same content, just it has been paid for). There is no exclusive content in the suggestion. This screen (or messages) exists in all versions, behaves the same way in all versions (backer, gog, steam). Also, this is not an attempt to make people pirate the game less. Any message that can appear (like: “Thank you for buying and supporting this self-published game!”) will appear in both the genuine and pirated game (as they are exactly the same thing). The only concern is: How can we make the only version of the game convince people who have not paid for it to pay for it? I believe this will not happen by bashing people in some way (there is only one version of the game, if you bash pirates, you are bashing buyers, too). From a monetisation point of view, this works a bit like downloading a demo, then paying for the full version. But the *demo is the full version* - this cannot be avoided! People have already downloaded a legitimate copy of the game and not paid for it (this is what pirated DRM-free game is), what can we do to change their mind to pay for the game? This is what this suggestion tries to answer. No copy protection, no DRM, no exclusive content, no “pirated” and “non-pirated” version of the game. Monetisation is a big thing in mobile games – there is a lesson to be learned from there. If we can just make it as easy to buy the key as it is easy to buy something inside a mobile app, many people will buy it (ok, that’s a speculation, but a founded one, as explained before). @Lysen and @Boo's Brother Hoo If you take Legend of Grimrock for example, you’ll see that an old-school game can be very popular. I think way more people than the backers will play P:E. You’re right, people who pirate it may consider to support the next kickstarter campaign. But how do we make them pay for P:E, too? This is what I am going for. @nikolokolus Please, let’s not start about piracy in general and DRM. Game will be pirated. Trying to stop that is irrelevant. DRM will not be included, so it is irrelevant, too. @Jarmo Good point about the version which was cracked. Or at least it would be in a piracy good / bad discussion that is not this thread The “purchase legit copy” should be “purchase additional copy (or gift)”, as this is a legit game, even in a pirate’s hads (who did not pay). Backers will be reading the same thing. And good point it should not be in your face. @necromate Um, isn’t that half-compiled system a form of DRM? Makes genuine customers’ life hard by creating extra work for them… yup, it sounds like DRM. @forfs No benefit content. One version. GoGDRM-free. Legit, pirated, it is one version. @necromate “I think the best solution is still something DRM-free that encourages pirates to buy the game and does not fill the net with angry pirates who tell everybody that "this game is broken at multiple points", that's bad for sales, could also cause issues for legal copy owners but we are going off-topic, we are not looking for DRMs, but clever lures to convert pirates into legal owners” Yes! Yes, YES! Edit: Typo and adding a couple more yes-es:)

On the first question, it looks like the only options that can get some leeway is "Their abilities". If a character has underdeveloped any of the other options they are not as good as they could be. As for the second one - a mix is probably the best. Complexity is great, but how can you not want somebody like Minsc to have as some light-hearted relief. How boring five aggressive NPCs would be without a calm / peaceful one to try to put them in order? What fun would five crazy ones be without at least one sensible person to show how crazy they really are? And so on. I'd rather have it all, as it should be doable in a party of six.

It is a valid idea. This would get people's constant attention. The problem with it is that some groups may ignore this but others will probably remove it. What is more, if we have these in the game, someone will most likely share the gog version with a key (or even keygen) and then the whole thing will be obsolete because every pirated copy will be a genuine copy that has not been paid for. I do not think there is any way around this (blocking pirates from downloading a DRM-free game). To me it looks like the only option is to make pirates buy the game by their own free will (again, if they have the means, if they like the game and they have some conscience). Going for that, positive motivation is in most cases more effective than negative (you get better results if you offer something good, rather than offering to avoid something bad). Offering them an opportunity to feel proud and happy about buying the game seems like a better option to "pay to avoid punishment". Maybe some kind of message (on the main menu screen or lading screens, as you suggest?) congratulating the gamer for supporting a self-publishing effort, instead of a negative one? That might make a pirate somehow uncomfortable until they have actually done the good deed they take credit for?

Exactly . This is exactly what I am aiming for. Unfortunately, I guess I did not explain the whole thing correctly. There should be no content at all that is hidden from the pirates, no content to be cracked. This should exist in a pirated copy, just like in a licenced one (with an original non-duplicated key) and be fully functional. Also, some clarification about how it should work: The game does not select anything for you or switch modes or anything. Literally all this does is put the avatar you pick (by clicking on it) and its corresponding text in the middle or the screen. You can have any type of key (backer, gog, steam), maybe you don’t have a key, it does not matter. You click on any one avatar and it goes in the middle. If you have a key, you see all the avatars, you pick yours, you look at the little avatar in the middle and read the text and you are proud and happy – that’s all this screen does for you. If you do not have a key *and* have a conscience, you feel bad. If you have curiosity, you follow a link from the game to check how much a game key is going for. You play the game, you love it as much as we loved BG, Fallout, P:T and all the rest, you go check that screen and *if you have the means* you buy a game key and you feel proud and happy. This is the only case where this could help and this amounts to the full usefulness of this suggestion. @oneda: Do not want to talk about piracy in general because this is a whole other debate. I have pirated P:T, BGs, Fallouts. All infinity engine games actually. I was a student, ONE game had the price of more than a month worth of rent. It was either pirating these amazing games or never having played them (and never having supported kickstarter). I own all of them now (should have put that in the beginning, I could feel some hate flaring up ). I do not care about this case of piracy. I cannot do anything about it and neither can Obsidian. *It is irrelevant.* As for server-side content: that’s DRM. Whether it is useful or not it does not matter (please don’t turn the topic into a DRM: yes or NO ), there will be no DRM in P:E, as confirmed by the developers. @ lordgizka: This is not about combating piracy. It is acknowledging it and increasing returns through that. @ JFSOCC: Yes, completely agree. No-one gives the offer to a pirate to make their game legitimate. Everybody just tries to kick them down. If the offer is given, the game is great and the price is right, what then? Maybe results will be nice? Please, can we kinda forget about DRM and how piracy is good or bad and try to figure out a way to inprove this suggestion (or beat it down to the ground if it deserves it) and help P:E and Obsidian get the return they deserve for all the time and effort invested?

Have been trying to figure out a way to convert people who have pirated the game to buyers and this looks like an option. Sorry for the long text and the image of offensive quality, did my best to keep it short. So… how about a selection screen (accessible via the main menu) with some pretty art and in-game avatars where you show off your relationship with the game (well, the way you got the key)? It would be a point of pride for anyone who has purchased a key, and an easy way for people who do not own a key to buy one. What is the point of such a screen if we are not concerned about piracy? To see some nice art and feel good about yourself. Something along those lines (please pay no attention to my awesomazing graphics skills): It can have a few categories such as Digital KS backer, Physical KS backer, GOG or Steam (probably different labels), with different characters (or classes, or differently equipped versions of the same character). For each category there should be a male and a female to click on. Once you click, the avatar appears in slightly bigger version, in the middle of the screen, together with some descriptive text that goes with the selection* (read below). Also, there should be an easy way to purchase a game key from there ** (another note below). Such a screen would fit in with the rest of the game and could help with piracy. * The idea of the text (as well as the avatar) is to show the personality of the backer / purchaser through the game world lore. For example, the text that goes with the GoG avatar selection would be something about “You are a character that does not agree to be ordered around by merchants how to use their wares. The adventuring gear you buy is of the finest quality – without protective charms that make it duller, just so other people would not try to steal it.” Ok, that was quite a bad example but you get the idea. The kickstarter backers can get text about how they plan and prepare well for adventures and that they support merchants and other adventurers. No matter which way you got your game key you should be equally proud to have it (be it as a backer, DRM-free at GoG or Steam, assuming these are all the distribution channels), so each text description and avatar representing these should be equally great, too. ** The more important point – there should be an easy non-intrusive way to buy a key should you want to. Clicking on an avatar that minimises the game and opens a browser is not non-intrusive. I guess the developers can figure out the technology of how to offer that. Maybe there could be additional text or small image next to the GoG and Steam sections. If you press it, it could open a window inside the game asking if you want to minimise the game and open the browser to get a game key “to gift” (just a bit less intrusive). Then either GoG or steam website could open, or even some Obsidian web platform – after all it’s selling just keys, the player already has the game running. The majority of players would already have a key and just pick one of those (the last avatar you click on should stay selected even when you restart the game) and feel good about it. If you pirated the game, it is just a quick 30 sec to buy a key for that game you really, really like (provided the devs find a way to implement a process that quick and painless – paypal, google checkout, amazon payments, whatever) and then feel good about it! Some assumptions I have made: The game will be pirated. – I don’t think there is any doubt about it. Many of the people who pirated it will like it so much that they would feel really good about buying it. – Possible, even probable, I think. DRM is bad / does not work – Not worth talking about. A couple of other things: There could be other stuff like equipping the avatar with different gear, etc. – something like a minigame. However, this would be counterproductive as it would shift the focus. The one and only purpose of this screen should be to make you feel good about how you purchased the game. And about *how*, not *if*. (Plus the unofficial purpose of selling game keys).The image I put started with the idea that these would be in a cave, smaller avatars would be on something like ledges, the big one on the cave floor (bet you couldn’t have guessed that ). This is just one idea, they might as well be in a city, in a forest, anything. This could even change as the game progresses and new areas are accessed (backgrounds could be selectable once they have been unlocked – could help with people coming back to this screen, especially after the game is completed and people are pumped up and ready to buy it if they have not already, and more so after they see an amazing new selection screen). Please refrain of making this a discussion about piracy in general – the goods, the bads and so on. Lets try to find a way to make P:E earn the money it should so it can fund the expansion we’ll be looking forward, P:E 2 and all other Obsidian projects. What do you think about the upsides / downsides of this idea? Could it make enough returns for the invested time / energy? What are some ways to improve it? Any good alternatives instead?

Mist Devil, after this I feel kinda bad about my probably not all-encompassingly-friendly reply to oldmanpaco... I am humbled

There's no way one of you guys should wait just like the rest of us and be disappointed! I know I'm not Chris Avellone but I made one for you! Enjoy

Eternity: Soul searching - the search for a game with some soul:)