LordCrash

Steam has a whole lot of benefits. Just some of them: easy and comfortable game management (if you know one or two tricks it's easily the best thing about Steam) automatic and frequent patching of your games in house streaming (very useful if you have multiple devices in your house) family sharing (I use that feature with some of my good friends as well) achievements cloud saves (so you can play the same game on multiple devices without tedious manual savegame transfer) built-in workshop for easy and comfortable mod management built-in community features in the overlay (like solutions, tricks, guides, livechat,...) social functions (like sharing of reviews, screenshots, artworks, videos, also forums) easy and comfortable co-op and mulitplayer with built-in voice chat (if supported by the game) preloads steam trading (although a bit limited now with regional restrictions) external key integration (if buying from other shops or retail versions) easy and comfortable possibility to take part in beta versions early access function closed beta function (see Pillars backer beta) crazy sales on Steam itself and other shops that sell Steam keys Imho there is a whole lot of good features coming with Steam but that's just me of course...

Unlikely, there is even a warning when you generate the key that it is a one time choice and you can't take it back. Also, why does it matter? Why are people so hung up on preloading, this isn't a 50gig download. Or is it people actually like steam achievements? Some people like Steam for various reasons. Just accept it.

That's what the extensive manual is for. Too bad I won't get the physical version of that handbook until a few weeks after release...

Uninstalling Steam will also uninstall all of the games you have. Ahem, no. Not at all. That's just false information, bud. It's actually one of the big benefits of Steam that this is NOT the case... From my experience - it does uninstall games. But if my experience is not enough for you - here is an official Steam page: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9609-OBMP-2526 LOL, I've deinstalled Steam multiple times myself and it never uninstalled my games. I even played the same Steam games on two different OS without installing/downloading them anew. Only thing you have to do is saving your steamapps folder before and pushing it back to your Steam folder once you've reinstalled Steam. One minute of google search could grant you that magical insight. But sure, if you have no idea about stuff like that you should probably go with GOG. It's more noob-proof... And you can laugh all day, Steam have a lot of benefits for quite a lot of people Maybe they don't work for you, but you're also not the centre of the universe.

http://www.saturn.de/mcs/product/Pillars-of-Eternity-Rollenspiel-PC,48352,521570,1960260.html?langId=-3 Available at Saturn, Berlin Alexanderplatz, 27th March 2015 (maybe you already get it tomorrow if you ask them) (just an example)

A pirated version probably wouldn't hurt day 1 sales at all. Of course that is debatable but there are arguments for both sides and imho the net value of an early release for backers would still be positive.

Obsidian values their backers, so they didn't want them to play the game without the first day patch. The media however, was subjected to bugs. Thank you Obsidian, for your considerate actions. Nobody would have prevented you from just waiting until release day and the day one patch in this case. So your argument is invalid.

And here is the thing I don't mind you feeling like that and you're not wrong to have that opinion. I don't think less of you or feel like calling you out - fans are not who I have my beef with here. I'm upset at Obsidian and their decisions and I'm voicing that in the hopes it makes their future events better. I personally wont be backing them or encouraging friends to if they do another KS unless I see some statements or questions answered about the priority of backers. I would have asked this in the beginning but hindsight is 20/20 and honestly back then we had very little to go on with KS experience. Now we've seen how companies have done their KS which ones have done alright - which ones have burnt bridges. You think Double Fine is going to get another successful KS in the near future? Pretty challenging for them after that Space Station game and the trouble with Broken Age. Molyneux might as well give up gaming with the bridges he burnt. Obsidian hasn't murdered children or cooked kittens nor do I think that little of them - but they are someone I am now cautious of and same with other people. As I said in the previous post, maybe they can make next kickstarter with clear statement not only what backers are entitled to, but also what they are not entitled to. That's the WORST they could do. It's not about entitlement. It's not about promises. It IS about behaviour and HOW you communicate with your fans and backers. You know there are two basic psychological agendas you could push: promise a lot, but limit everything else, or promise much less, but give people something from time to time without having promised it before. Just as a sign of good will, as a sign of respect, as a sign of "hey, guys, we really love you". The second approach is imho much, much better. I don't want them to tell me that I can expect the game two weeks before everyone else right from the start. I want them to just tell me on the run that they decided that the backers are so awesome that they get the game earlier. Psychology is a tricky thing, and so is communication. All I want is Obsidian being LESS technical and LESS professional (but cold) in how they communicate and interact with the community and backers. To be honest, I want them to be more "real indie" and not the publisher-experienced professional guys who only see their backers as a source of funding. And again, this is not about the game itself. Of course I want them to be professional while developing the game. But their community management really sucks imho. It lacks both heart and effort. And that's the actual problem here.

Uninstalling Steam will also uninstall all of the games you have. Ahem, no. Not at all. That's just false information, bud. It's actually one of the big benefits of Steam that this is NOT the case... And none of what you've said in this linked post of yours have anything to do with the DRM discussion. You might have other reasons to prefer GOG, sure, but that's not what I was talking about here.

This is not true on Steam for many modern games (regardless of Steamworks) unless they're from a small indie developer, for reasons stated above. I'll be interested to see if it's the case for PoE. Of course, you could copy the folder to another computer and put it in the Steam directory and Steam will most likely happily use it after repairing the installation. With GOG, I can download the install package and archive it. Done. Never deal with GOG again. Sure, maybe future hardware or OS changes will lead to it being unplayable, I won't have the latest patches, but the game installer is unshackled from ANY server-side needs. Actually that's not only the case for "small indie developers". It's also true for the whole catalogue of games made by Paradox. So there is no reason why it shouldn't be the case for PoE. And it's also the case for example for Divinity Original Sin and everything made by Larian. You can see a full list of DRM-free games on Steam right here. None of these games need the Steam client for anything else than the initial download. Beyond that you can just deinstall Steam. The only difference left between Steam and GOG in this case is that you have to install Steam as a small tool for downloading while you can use your browser for GOG. That's about the WHOLE difference. You can't really call that difference DRM vs. non-DRM anymore. It's just pointless imho. By the way, you can read about Paradox' stance on DRM here and here.

Who assumes that? Again a pointless and made up accusation...

Sad to see so many people amongst the backers who think they have to call others whiners, babies, man-children or whatever else. What's the point in that, hm? If you have nothing of substance to contribute to the discussion why saying anything at all?

Same could be said for the review version and the version for streamers. In that case nobody should have gotten an early version indeed. In the end, it's probably really a trust issue. Obsidian apparently thinks that gaming media and streamers can cope with a slightly more buggy version (but far, far from unplayable or bad) while the most loyal fans and backers are incapable of doing the same. No matter if you agree with that or not, it's not a sign that you trust your community. On the other hand, various early access titles proved that if managed and communicated well ordinary people are quite capable of making a solid assessment on a version that lacks the last 5% of polish...

I am not accusing you or others of anything. One thing I cannot understand is that you are propagating a "word of mouth" as the best marketing tool and at the same time you are whining here on forums that you didn't get something you were not entitled to in the first place, and by whining and criticizing the Obsidian you are for sure sending confusing/bad picture about the Obsidian as a responsible company. That is also affecting perception of the game. "I don't accuse you or others of anything." <-> "You are whining here on the forums." You get it? Talking about TOPICS is something completely different than talking about PERSONS. There is no reason to call me a whiner. You can disagree with my points, of course, but please stick to the topic and actually refute my arguments if you think you can. About the bad perception: really? Because a small number of people discuss this here on the board? I can assure you 99% of the people buying and playing this game will never see this discussion or even hear about it. But of course word of mouth can work in both ways. That's actually why I think Obsidian made a wrong decision here and that they've wasted a huge opportunity.

Your base assumption is imho incorrect that nowadays press is the most important marketing channel for games of that kind. I'd say for PC exclusive games of some niche appeal word of mouth from enthusiastic fans is an even more powerful marketing tool. That's why streamers on youtube get more and more important as well. I don't see how giving copies to backers earlier should result in lower sales. You might elaborate on that? But you just missed the point and your whole rant is useless anyway because nobody here criticizes Obsidian for giving out review copies to the press before release. We criticize them for not giving out game copies to backers at the same time. Well because game is DRM free if backers would get copies, let's say 3 days before launch, the torrent with the game would be out in less than a 10 minutes and than people would pirate it for 3 days before launch. That would hurt Obsidian sales on so many levels! And furthermore, do you consider yourself that important and entitled that the company owns you something because you backed their development? Excuse me, but I think we own more to Obsidian than they to us, as there is no other studio or people who could pull something like this, and who would put everything on risk to make a game that no one seems to want (I mean publishers and nowadays gamers). I pledged $290 and I do not know anyone else in whole world who could for that money get me a game like this! Be happy that we were allowed to play a part in something great and something no one believed that can happened again - to get real spiritual successor to our beloved IE games! I doubt the significance of the torrent argument. People who want to pirate the game will so anyway. It's not like just because a torrent isn't available two weeks before release would lead to buy the game. You could even counter the whole argument by looking at the torrent as a free demo. There are still quite a few people who pirate games to evaluate whether they want to buy the game for full price or not. So maybe it would have even fueled sales (just talking about effects here, not about torrents being right or something, ok). And my argument wasn't about myself, but about the effectiveness of marketing. I think releasing the game earlier to backers would have been a win-win situation for everyone. Backers would have been happy because they feel a bit special and respected and Obsidian would have been happy because everyone in the core audience was talking about the game on social networks and game communities like Steam. Not even mentioning a whole lot of probably very positive Steam user reviews already available at launch which is the best argument for quite some people I know to actually buy a game. I say it again, word of mouth is the best marketing channel for a game like Pillars of Eternity, imho more important than traditional reviews. People nowadays - especially on PC - trust their friends and user reviews more than those of traditional media. Well I cannot argue with you obviously you have your opinion and cant/don't want to accept another one. IMHO one lost sale of the game because someone impatient would download torrent and than later decide for whatever reason not to buy the game is a loss. As Obsidian never said that backers will get game before others, I do not see the reason discussing this topic at all... And furthermore I would suggest Obsidian for the next kickstarter (I hope that they will make it whether they got enough funds or not because I like to be a part of something like it) that they separately state in CAPITAL LETTERS that: "Backers will NOT get game before official release. Please do not pledge if you cannot accept this. Thank you very much." Apparently every fruitful discussion is indeed lost here since you don't even want to discuss anything and since you don't listen or answer to other people's arguments, you just want to accuse me (or others) of something. Goodbye.

Your base assumption is imho incorrect that nowadays press is the most important marketing channel for games of that kind. I'd say for PC exclusive games of some niche appeal word of mouth from enthusiastic fans is an even more powerful marketing tool. That's why streamers on youtube get more and more important as well. I don't see how giving copies to backers earlier should result in lower sales. You might elaborate on that? But you just missed the point and your whole rant is useless anyway because nobody here criticizes Obsidian for giving out review copies to the press before release. We criticize them for not giving out game copies to backers at the same time. Well because game is DRM free if backers would get copies, let's say 3 days before launch, the torrent with the game would be out in less than a 10 minutes and than people would pirate it for 3 days before launch. That would hurt Obsidian sales on so many levels! And furthermore, do you consider yourself that important and entitled that the company owns you something because you backed their development? Excuse me, but I think we own more to Obsidian than they to us, as there is no other studio or people who could pull something like this, and who would put everything on risk to make a game that no one seems to want (I mean publishers and nowadays gamers). I pledged $290 and I do not know anyone else in whole world who could for that money get me a game like this! Be happy that we were allowed to play a part in something great and something no one believed that can happened again - to get real spiritual successor to our beloved IE games! I doubt the significance of the torrent argument. People who want to pirate the game will so anyway. It's not like just because a torrent isn't available two weeks before release would lead to buy the game. You could even counter the whole argument by looking at the torrent as a free demo. There are still quite a few people who pirate games to evaluate whether they want to buy the game for full price or not. So maybe it would have even fueled sales (just talking about effects here, not about torrents being right or something, ok). And my argument wasn't about myself, but about the effectiveness of marketing. I think releasing the game earlier to backers would have been a win-win situation for everyone. Backers would have been happy because they feel a bit special and respected and Obsidian would have been happy because everyone in the core audience was talking about the game on social networks and game communities like Steam. Not even mentioning a whole lot of probably very positive Steam user reviews already available at launch which is the best argument for quite some people I know to actually buy a game. I say it again, word of mouth is the best marketing channel for a game like Pillars of Eternity, imho more important than traditional reviews. People nowadays - especially on PC - trust their friends and user reviews more than those of traditional media.

Your base assumption is imho incorrect that nowadays press is the most important marketing channel for games of that kind. I'd say for PC exclusive games of some niche appeal word of mouth from enthusiastic fans is an even more powerful marketing tool. That's why streamers on youtube get more and more important as well. I don't see how giving copies to backers earlier should result in lower sales. You might elaborate on that? But you just missed the point and your whole rant is useless anyway because nobody here criticizes Obsidian for giving out review copies to the press before release. We criticize them for not giving out game copies to backers at the same time.

Jesus, have you even ever been to the RSI forums? (And I guarantee my citizen # is higher than yours...) Your complete lack of self-awareness is almost awe-inspiring.... Most likely - I didn't sign up to the website till closer to the end of the KS campaign. I had the opportunity to have been a Golden Ticket holder but didn't think it would have meant much. And yeah the RSI forums aren't always happy - but it's engaged which is a key difference. But you know what I've said my piece those who disagree have that option - those that feel the same as I do aren't going to have their opinions changed by being called babies or told its a temper tantrum. Its too late for Obsidian to fix their idiotic decision we'll all just wait for our keys - those on slow internet will wait longer. I personally wont be bothering with Obsidian in future unless I see some bridge building and will be telling the people I know to stay away, whether or not that effects them (probably not) who can say. But honestly I respected these guys and was really rooting for them to succeed, and sure maybe they will but I'm disappointed in them for their actions I thought they would have been better. What on earth are you talking about? They developed a game. It's set to release Thursday morning at 9 am PST. It's Tuesday at 11:42 PM EST now. The game release hasn't come and passed us by yet. There's nothing to complain about. At all yet. Exactly. I wish they added a "slap on the back of the head" button for all the kids who ate too much sugar and have the patience of five year olds. It's one thing to talk about a TOPIC. And a whole different thing to talk about PERSONS. Stick to basic civilty instead of calling other peope names, ok?

And that's wrong again. There is no backlash about that. There is a backlash about Obsidian not letting the backers play the game (earlier) as well. The copy that reviewers/streamers got was not the finished product. You'd rather have what they got than the finished product? Help me understand why? Because I like having choices. The very foundation of freedom is choice. You were never promised a choice. Why do you feel entitled to something that was not offered? I don't feel entitled although people accuse me and others of it on a constant level. I don't DEMAND anything like it was promised to me. Nevertheless I feel disappointed. It would have been just a nice gesture to get the backers the option to play the game a bit earlier as well - if they want to. But to be completely honest I'm disappointed how Obsidian acted during development for a longer time now. It's not just about this one here.

And that's wrong again. There is no backlash about that. There is a backlash about Obsidian not letting the backers play the game (earlier) as well. The copy that reviewers/streamers got was not the finished product. You'd rather have what they got than the finished product? Help me understand why? Because I like having choices. The very foundation of freedom is choice.

Don't even dare to compare this kickstarter with Larian's one...

Some people voice their disappointment. No matter if it's misguided or not, that's unimportant. At the same time they don't insult other backers. They just talk about their opinions on how the kickstarter campaign and certain issues connected with that are handled. Other people just post constant insults and make fun of other people, belitteling them for being disappointed or having bad feelings. What's better, hm? So much for the sense of superiority...

I think they have a "wrong" mindset towards crowdfunding in general and I doubt that'll change for any upcoming project tbh. Of course you make mistakes along the line. But I don't see that Obsidian is actually learning from them yet, at least in terms of backer involvement and communication. I mean, the game will probably be great but I've expected nothing else from them. That's why we all supported them in the first place, or not? It's just that this kickstarter development wasn't much "fun" after the actual funding campaign was over. There was little to no community engagement, just business as usual and just delivering on promises. No "entertainment factor" if you want so. Everything just professional. Maybe that's appealing to some but not to me. I guess if I ever backed them again it would be for much less.

And that's wrong again. There is no backlash about that. There is a backlash about Obsidian not letting the backers play the game (earlier) as well.

Granted it's not like they sat there thinking how can they screw over their backers. But it does show that we meant so little to them that we were just some faceless mob who would be happy with being shoved aside and told "yeah, no, you guys did your bit you gave us the money now sod off and wait your turn" How can anyone in the industry still to this day after everything that is changing not pick up on why you put fans first. Yep, they sat around a table and thought "those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" Nothing I say is going to convince you so I'm done here, but people reading this thread can make their own minds up as to whether this situation really offends them. *shrug* I backed the game because I wanted to see it made and I wanted the promised goodies. I got both. If I expected a lot more than what I was promised, I'm sure I'd have been disappointed, too. now in my signature.. You should refering that correctly to Tigranes...it's not something Obsidian actually said.