LordCrash

It's all explained here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71253-tiers-to-skus/

Hey Silver! Long time no see. Seems like the ol' crowd is gathering before venturing forth in this last few hours until release...

There was an entire Kickstarter update email to everyone about the delay in physical goods, with a poll about it how to handle this. The sticking point is that outside of the US that delay will be longer, but even in the US we will wait a few weeks for physical delivery. Yes, but the mail spoke about a few days. Later Brandon talked about a couple of weeks because of some dock strikes. That's a difference, at least for me. Anyway, since the now seem to send stuff by air the old status quo should be up again.

There are free software tools to do that yourself if needed...

Update on that should be coming up in the next few days. Obsidian (and Paradox) decided to air freight the rewards to Europe to try and get the rewards to backers faster. it is more expensive, but we are trying to get people their goods as fast as possible. From the Official Keys Thread Thanks! And a huge LOL @Obsidian for their ****ed up communication. I mean thanks for sending the stuff by airmail, really, but why not communicating that properly? I would have been much more happy today if I already knew that I will get my stuff much sooner...

Steam update time is usually around 7 pm CET

Update on that should be coming up in the next few days. Obsidian (and Paradox) decided to air freight the rewards to Europe to try and get the rewards to backers faster. it is more expensive, but we are trying to get people their goods as fast as possible. They sent it by air, will arrive in due time I suppose. Let us rejoice in the fact that from tomorrow on we have a brand new spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games Again, do you have a link for that "air mail" statement? Maybe Obsidian should finally stop confusing simple forum posts with actual communication with more than a single person...

I thought they said it was because the ports shut down or something like that but I could be misremembering I know that. But is it too much to ask to get some official statement in the update about it? I mean, I read the forums because I'm an enthusiast. But there are A TON of backers in Europe and elsewhere who don't read the forums. They don't follow the development closely. But they expect their rewards on release or shortly after, and rightfully so. They will ask themselves: hey, what happend to my cool physical box I've pledged for? Where is my pyhsical map and manual? And you know what? Nobody tells them because Obsidian thinks a one-liner forum post is enough communication on the topic (or whatever the reason for their silence is). I don't get, I really don't get it. And even if it's just about the dock workers being on strike what's the big deal to explain the situation in more detail to the backers, apologizing for the inconvenience? I thought Brandon said they ended up air freighting that stuff for the Europeans? He did? Link/confirmation, please. And in my account there is still a "shipping soon" token.

I thought half of the codex hated PoE. "The only good RPG is a turn-based RPG"...

I thought they said it was because the ports shut down or something like that but I could be misremembering I know that. But is it too much to ask to get some official statement in the update about it? I mean, I read the forums because I'm an enthusiast. But there are A TON of backers in Europe and elsewhere who don't read the forums. They don't follow the development closely. But they expect their rewards on release or shortly after, and rightfully so. They will ask themselves: hey, what happend to my cool physical box I've pledged for? Where is my pyhsical map and manual? And you know what? Nobody tells them because Obsidian thinks a one-liner forum post is enough communication on the topic (or whatever the reason for their silence is). I don't get, I really don't get it. And even if it's just about the dock workers being on strike what's the big deal to explain the situation in more detail to the backers, apologizing for the inconvenience? That's the least they could do. But I guess they just want to avoid "bad news" again...

And again no official explanation or apology for the delayed physical rewards for international backers. They really know how to disappoint. Anyway, congrats to all fellow backers. I hope you will have fun tomorrow and in the upcoming days with the game. I'll probably wait for a few more days/weeks...

PoE won't have any DRM attached to it on Steam... But I guess people will never learn that. Is this confirmed? Can you link a source? I was going to get my copy form GOG, but if the Steam version is DRM-free, I might grab that one instead. Well, it would seem weird that the devs specifically stated that the backer boxed copies of the game are DRM-free, while the retail copies require Steam. But I guess without input from the devs, we'll find out tomorrow when someone tests it out (I'm sure someone will do so). Not only that. With Paradox as distributor it would make no sense to artificially push DRM into the Steam version. All of their own games are DRM-free on Steam and their CEO, Fred Wester, said himself that he actually think DRM is pointless and no game should have it... @dancingcrab My post wasn't meant to be dismissive. I'm sorry if you think it was.

Es handelt sich dabei nicht um die finale Version des Handbuchs. Das erscheint erst am Donnerstag, und dann auch lokalisiert. Super! Vielen Dank für die Info. Beim Strategy Guide darf man wohl nicht auf eine Lokalisierung hoffen, oder? Könnte ich verstehen, aber schön wär's trotzdem. ;-) Da müsstest du bei Prima Games anfragen, da Obsidian den Strategy Guide nicht selbst produziert...

1) Different pricing indeed means different motivation. The higher a price is the higher is the human reluctance to steal a product. We have less problems with stealing minor things. The distribution channel and consumption is important because many people don't only buy product to consume them but also because they want to be socially attractive. That's especially true for everything in the entertainment industry. You consume films, music, games to be up to date. Games industry have found a quite clever way to prevent piracy here by social integration. You don't only consume games, you show that you consume games. That's one of STeam's biggest selling points for many people although few want to admit it. That's how achievements basically work for money. The same doesn't exist for music. Also you can listen to music by paying money for streaming services like Spotify. The same doesn't apply to video games (yet). All in all the motivation to pirate music is still much higher than for video games nowadays. 2) I presented different views in my own post of different kinds of human behaviour based on different life situation or mindsets. You only answered by one mindset based on your own experience. 3) Evidence for what exactly? There were times in my life (when I was very short on money) in which I pirated almost everything and most of it worked pretty well, based on various forums often even better than for regular customers. Of course that is based on my experience as well but I haven't seen a solid argument on your side why a significant amount of pirated games (especiall normal Steam games) should offer a non-full experience... 4) For once,a decision doesn't get better or worse by its popularity. There are widespread "failures" in public perception of many things, even amongst people that should actually know better. The human mind has a great potential for failures. But this isn't exactly about failures, it's about the evaluation of business practices in an insecure situation. So there is no clear right or wrong here, just different opinions amd evaluations. I mix up these two levels because they are easily combined and because they are inter-connected. I backed the game because I want these types of games to succeed in the best possible way and I backed the game because I want the development environment and attitude to be changed. So those two things work hand in hand for me, personally.

Nope, BW Farbig wäre schon cool, ist aber eben auch deutlich teurer für die physische Version. Daher hat man sich wohl für eine einheitliche schwarz-weiß Version entschieden.

Have you sent a mail to Paradox directly asking about it? I wrote a ticket today, still no reponse. I got no information from them, only the confirmation of purchase... Hm, ok, that's sad. But give them some space, maybe they'll answer soon. They probably have to answer a lot of mails so shortly before release.

1) You need an argument to support your claim that Music sales are relevantly different from software sales here. They are both data, they are both DRM-free and fairly comparable in terms of ease of distribution. 2) As far as I can tell, everyone in this debate are basing their argumentation on extrapolation from their own perspective. So that's hardly a relevant complaint, or a relative weakness in my argument. Clearly it would be preferable to have empirical evidence to support any claim, and the minute you dig something up, I'll have a look. Untill then, this discussion is going to be based largely on hunches and intuition. From both sides mind you. 3) In my own experience (do you have access to something else?) when reading the discussion of the most popular torrent site (you know which one), there are often issues involved. Some of these have to do with patching problems, and some have to do with the cracked version not being tested adequately/at all. So you often wait for a later release by one of the major groups on the scene. 4) Is it about respect, or business sense? Are you PO'ed at Obsidian because you think they disrespect the backers, or are you PO'ed at them for being bad at business? 1) Different price level, different price structure, different distribution, different consumation, different product. Apples and oranges very much. 2) Yes and no. Of course we don't have solid numbers but we have something called psychology and human behaviour. You can make quite solid statements about human behaviour without being forced to base that on personal experience. 3) A release from a "major group" is there on release day for a regular Steam game usually. The games you talk about are games with a different DRM structure or even always-online DRM games. These are indeed hard to "crack". 4) It's about both. As I've said it would have been a win-win situation for everyone, the backers and Obsidian. On top of that I'm quite disappointed about Obsidian's whole stance on kickstarter and how they handled the whole campaign and the backer communication/involvement since the early days. That goes beyond this particular question of giving the backers an early copy or not.

Have you sent a mail to Paradox directly asking about it? Edit: Paradox has no own forum for PoE. They link directly to the Obsidian forum.

Es handelt sich dabei nicht um die finale Version des Handbuchs. Das erscheint erst am Donnerstag, und dann auch lokalisiert.

A pirated version probably wouldn't hurt day 1 sales at all. Of course that is debatable but there are arguments for both sides and imho the net value of an early release for backers would still be positive. I'd like to hear those arguments then. If something is available for free significantly prior to release, what's going to stop many people from d/l'ing it instead of getting a copy for themselves? The urge is going to be too great for many people (look at the forums, PoE is like cocaine!). And once they have a full retail copy, why would they then go on to splurge more dough on the steam-store or GOG? Clearly many people will resort to piracy no matter what, but that number is obviously going to be bigger if there is a DRM free copy around prior to release date. (edit: this is all coming from a known pirate... for arguments sake *wink*) This is an empirical question of course, but I assume that you and that australian guy, would both consider the perceived threat of piracy as an exculpating circumstance here, right? Well, the answer is both simple and complex: there are multiple reasons why people pirate or buy a game. That's why the whole thing is debatable, especially the net amount. As you've said yourself, there is a big part who just buy their games no matter what. So an early pirate version wouldn't interest them since they don't search for it. Then there are people who indeed buy games if they like what they see in a pirated version. And then there are people who would pirate the game anyway, no matter if two weeks earlier or at release day. You can also see it a bit more simplistic by separating gamers interested in Pillars in two groups: those with money to spare and no problem to do so and those without. The former group already backed the game or just buy it. The latter group will pirate it anyway or maybe, eventually they'll buy it. But there is imho little reason to believe that they buy it just because there is NO early version availabe as torrent if they can have a "free" version at release day anyway. As long as you can't have a paid version before the pirated version is available (what strict DRM is actually trying to do!) there is no reason for an avid pirate to buy the game anyway. And then let's talk about the positive effects about giving out copies earlier to backer. First, backers are happy and feel good. That probably leads to even more excitement and to a huge word of mouth effect on social platforms and in real life, just like what they intend to do with Youtubers and Streamers on a much bigger scale. You create buzz and hype by that and it costs you nothing. So in the end you have questionable negative effects of pirating (which could be as well be positive if more people - who have money and no problem to spend it - try out the game and then decide to buy it at rellease for full price) vs very likely positive effects of word of mouth and player exitement. Not even speaking about long time effects like an even more loyal and grateful fanbase. Many developers underestimate the value of such a loyal and enthusiastic fanbase and so they don't do enough to keep them happy and indeed, "feeling special". Aks Larian or many other indie devs, they can tell you a lot about the value of community management... A early release leak is a terrible thing, as many recording artists have experienced in the past, which has forced them to release special editions of their albums to actually get people to pay for it. And many many people (including myself, had I not backed it) would be willing to pirate it, just to get it a few days earlier. I mean, that's the crux of your point of view here, right? That getting it earlier actually has some huge value? Otherwise I don't see the point, I mean, if it's not big deal whether you get it now or earlier. And there would be absoluterly no instrumental reason for buying a genuine copy at a later point for us pirates, because the GOG-version is the full copy, and not just some weak "cracked" version. The only reason would be to "donate" money to Obsidian, but I imagine that those of us who share that sentiment, already backed them two years ago. So I simply disagree with you whether it is a significant issue. But I guess that's not important here. THe important thing is whether Obsidian considers it a big issue, and if they do, this should be a mitigating or exculpating circumstance with regards to the complaint about lack of respect. And though I agree that keeping the fans happy is a extremely important, I just don't see more than you two really being concerned with it. If it could be documented that the fanbase was extremely put off by this decision (I really doubt it), then I could see how it would affect the cost-benefit ratio. But of course, you may be right about the business sense of releasing early to backers, but that's is not what you or the other guy are complaining about, is it. You are - if I read you correctly - complaining about the lack of respect, despite whether it makes good business sense. Music is a completely different playing field, mate. Hard or even impossible to compare with video games, really. One mistake of your argumentation is that you think other people act in the same way you do. And some people probably do so. But not all of them. Some might even act in a complete opposite way. Basing a line of argumentation simply on the own behaviour or experience isn't a really strong one... And since when is a "cracked" version not a full version? I have played a lot of cracked games a few years ago and none of them was any different from the normal version (except multiplayer which isn't existing here)... And no, we are very well concerned whether it makes good business sense or not. We just seem to evaluate the whole thing differently with obviously different expected results. Releasing earlier to the backers and making good business sense is pretty much alinged for us.

Although GOG has explicitly stated that you can share copies of your games with people in your own household. Still, yes, many people completely misinterpret GOG's DRM-freeness as tacit permission to share with friends etc. "in your household", yes. So it's basically the same thing as with Steam family sharing although I can share Steam games with people who live far away from me, like my brother, who lives in a different town. And if we don't really care about "subtle legal issues" anyway, I could just use the benefits of the Steam version and download a cracked version from a pirate site for backup since I've already bought the thing. So I had the best of both worlds, don't ya all think?

Uhm... It's kind of cynical to praise this as a positive feature when sharing is only a problem because of DRM, don't you think? I mean it sounds like this is something gog.com would have to catch up to, when it doesn't need this in the first place because of no DRM. I definitely understand now why gog is running towards galaxy. If it works like Steam (=auto-patching), people will have to come up with new excuses why they are only using Steam. Ahem, "sharing" isn't allow on GOG neither. Just because you technically can (without changing the code) doesn't mean that you have the legal right to copy the game and give a free copy to other people. It's funny that people tend to defend GOG for being DRM free while they obviously argue with things that are clearly against GOG's own EULA (for example, you're also not allowed to sell your GOG games neither). And no, I don't need "excuses" for using Steam, why should I? It's not something I'm ashamed of. I use Steam because it offers the premium package and features I like. Do whatever you want to do but don't judge on others just because you don't understand their reasons or just because you personally have different priorities... I also never said that people have to use Steam. I just said that there are good reasons for some and that for some this whole DRM-free discussion isn't of great importance after all. To be more precise, personally I don't give a **** about DRM if it's not always-online crap (and that's not part of Steam's tools).

Since Obsidian is already trusting backers with DRM free GOG copies I fail to see the importance of releasing it at the same time as the media or after. People know the GOG copy is DRM free those who will pirate will do so no matter what. That has no significance after all since it's a five minute job to "break" an normal (Steam-DRM-protected) Steam game. Funnily enough the first pirate versions of a game are almost always cracked Steam versions and not the GOG version that doesn't need any crack. You can't prevent piracy without always-online DRM. That's a mere fact. Everything else is usually cracked within minutes after release or even before. So the "oh, the pirates..." argument is invalid from the very beginning.

No, you're not stuck. You can choose whether you want Steam or GOG right now in the backer portal. -> http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71574-redeeming-keys-and-rewards-how-to/

A pirated version probably wouldn't hurt day 1 sales at all. Of course that is debatable but there are arguments for both sides and imho the net value of an early release for backers would still be positive. I'd like to hear those arguments then. If something is available for free significantly prior to release, what's going to stop many people from d/l'ing it instead of getting a copy for themselves? The urge is going to be too great for many people (look at the forums, PoE is like cocaine!). And once they have a full retail copy, why would they then go on to splurge more dough on the steam-store or GOG? Clearly many people will resort to piracy no matter what, but that number is obviously going to be bigger if there is a DRM free copy around prior to release date. (edit: this is all coming from a known pirate... for arguments sake *wink*) This is an empirical question of course, but I assume that you and that australian guy, would both consider the perceived threat of piracy as an exculpating circumstance here, right? Well, the answer is both simple and complex: there are multiple reasons why people pirate or buy a game. That's why the whole thing is debatable, especially the net amount. As you've said yourself, there is a big part who just buy their games no matter what. So an early pirate version wouldn't interest them since they don't search for it. Then there are people who indeed buy games if they like what they see in a pirated version. And then there are people who would pirate the game anyway, no matter if two weeks earlier or at release day. You can also see it a bit more simplistic by separating gamers interested in Pillars in two groups: those with money to spare and no problem to do so and those without. The former group already backed the game or just buy it. The latter group will pirate it anyway or maybe, eventually they'll buy it. But there is imho little reason to believe that they buy it just because there is NO early version availabe as torrent if they can have a "free" version at release day anyway. As long as you can't have a paid version before the pirated version is available (what strict DRM is actually trying to do!) there is no reason for an avid pirate to buy the game anyway. And then let's talk about the positive effects about giving out copies earlier to backer. First, backers are happy and feel good. That probably leads to even more excitement and to a huge word of mouth effect on social platforms and in real life, just like what they intend to do with Youtubers and Streamers on a much bigger scale. You create buzz and hype by that and it costs you nothing. So in the end you have questionable negative effects of pirating (which could be as well be positive if more people - who have money and no problem to spend it - try out the game and then decide to buy it at rellease for full price) vs very likely positive effects of word of mouth and player exitement. Not even speaking about long time effects like an even more loyal and grateful fanbase. Many developers underestimate the value of such a loyal and enthusiastic fanbase and so they don't do enough to keep them happy and indeed, "feeling special". Aks Larian or many other indie devs, they can tell you a lot about the value of community management...