Nonek

What is real? That there are and have been immoral Animancers who commited unspeakable crimes in the world of Poe? Yes that is a fact that no-one is arguing over I don't think, and they seem to have set the modern dislike of the profession. Nobody would tolerate such crimes then or now, this seems obvious. However retaining the services of Animancers whom don't dabble in such things seems perfectly logical as well. As for examples of famed alchemists I always rely on good old Doctor John Dee, a genius as well as a man suspected of congress with the devil. Edit: Anyway one is off to bed, thank you for the interesting argument.

Doesn't everybody in Poe manipulate their immortal Soul somewhat, as one would assume that is one of the method of factually knowing of its existence, wouldn't they be more used to such things not less? As for the more educated experimenting in more questionable areas, wasn't that somewhat common in our own world. Alchemists who were suspected of dealing with the devil, entertained or were even retained by Kings, Queens and Emperor's. The educated middle and upper classes watching experimentation upon corpses with electricity, that promised revivification and sparked Mrs Shelley's most famous creation according to some. The fascination with the macabre and spiritualism that was catered to by ingenious frauds, and lapped up by the great and the good? Edit: Of course Animancers might be rightfully or wrongly judged to be guilty of harming a Soul somewhat, but also might be a legitimate means of also healing one, as Mr Sawyer suggests. Thus the course of action towards them becomes clear, keep a close eye upon them, employ the reputable moralistic ones, and hunt down those who create the Undead. Though I doubt it will be so simple a matter to execute.

The translation issue seemed pertinent in that the damnation of ones eternal soul was supposedly at stake, this was an issue of taking the Lord's words in vain and going directly against his mouthpiece on Earth. The similarity seems more than apparent for a true believer, you are tampering with the Divine will, surely that is what a peasant in Eora must believe Animancer's are doing? To any average man of the renaissance period surely his soul was just as real as those in Poe, and the presence of God was a fact because of the masses of supposed evidence around him, as well as his cultural and spiritual upbringing. To hear of men taking a stand against mother church, and commiting such unthinkable blasphemy seems quite apt to what Animancer's might be facing. Edit: But the core of the issue seems quite reasonable, the nobility are supporting Animancy for the beneficial everyday aspects it presents as a physician for the Soul, and quite obviously no-one in their right mind would support a rogue Animancer who has performed the experiments that result in Undeath. Barring extraordinary circumstances of course. Mr Sawyer also states that such experiments are rare, expensive and extremely frowned upon so there seems to be no illogical issues to me. Of course what goes on in secret and extraordinary circumstances will remain as uncommon knowledge, not to be talked of or speculated upon, merely exterminated by the most expedient method. Perhaps where the protagonist steps in?

I do apologise I had not perused your posts before submitting my own Mr Gromnir, I had merely been percolating on the subject and coming to conclusions. The first that it might be quite easy to handle and maintain a secret state of undeath as a Fampyr, and be an attractive and moral decision for some of the more egotistical individuals whom have trouble letting go. Thus the question on how much cannibalism they need to partake in. Of course an easily maintained condition might invite over-confidence, and thus danger from another direction. The second that to gain a more thorough knowledge and grounding with Animancy we might be more narratively or mechanically associated with it, and thus see the more common groundwork as a balance to such situations as are illustrated in my first example. As for the masses feelings towards Animancy, we have the same answer as before, they are wary of if not violently against the practice. This for me fits with their conception of the Soul, and to similar advances being greeted with scepticism and hatred by the peoples of our own renaissance era, such as the good book being translated to a non classical tongue. However as before I would hesitate to say that there is something wrong with Obsidian's conception of Animancy, as I simply do not have enough evidence to support that assertion. It seems logical enough from what information Mr Sawyer has provided us, at least to my method of thought. After all it is not so far removed from what Wizard's, Cipher's, Druid's and others are doing, we are not familiar with manipulating our Souls to achieve spectacular results, but for the inhabitants of Poe this is a (if not mundane) then acknowledged aspect of their own being. Animancer's taking that research and manipulation one step further is a rather natural and expected advancement in my view.

Two things occur to me since reading this information: One. A gentleman or lady of vast wealth, power and influence in the mortal realm may not wish to resign themselves to the wheel of birth, death and rebirth. In essence it is almost like a more thorough version of Nameless' reincarnation, and nothing but vague echoes remain from past lives, so an egotistical individual may well decide that their Soul being immortal, it does not matter whether it is reborn or not. They're not willing to let everything they are and have done go, tears in the rain etcetera, and so decide that they shall try to manage their undead condition and control it with the help of a studious and interested Animancer. In essence play the epilogue of Dead Money and realise that the hard thing is letting go. They may even see it as moral, to match move by move the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars. And the Animancer's role in their bid for freedom may not be entirely voluntary. Two. Given the information on the benificial everyday vocational activities of the average Animancer, one has to wonder whether they will play some role in the game? Whether as an individual whom the plot points one to, due to some condition arising from the narrative, or perhaps even as a number of individuals whom the party may have to consult due to certain game mechanics. A limited respec option, a remover of curses, or somesuch? Edit: How much human flesh does a Fampyr have to consume? One human can provide quite a feast, as a large mammal, and in the busy hubbub of a city a few missing people is hardly a noteworthy event. Especially if they are wisely chosen, and have not much social impact.

On the other hand Mr Avellone writes excellent...unusual...relationships, such as those between the Exile and Kreia, Nameless and Ravel or Deionarra, Cass and the Courier etcetera. Personally i'd be more interested in those kind of deeply disturbing and complicated relationships, rather than the traditional teenage ego stroking of romances.

With the kids away me and Mrs Nonek snuggled up and watched a DVD she'd been recommended, Storm of the Century, adapted from a Steven King work apparently. Really quite good, with the usual excellent sense of place that King puts into his work, the large cast is uniformly excellent and distinctive, and the antagonist though very simple works exceptionally well. Nice little morality play, remains ambiguous to the end.

This is my problem with modern English users, they forget the basics of the language and what an effective tool it can be if used correctly, elaborating on a point is fine if it needs expanding, if not they are wasted words. An example I often like to use is Shakespeare, whom it is very fashionable to knock, but who it cannot be argued birthed the modern English language: Iago could spout paragraphs of prose on why Desdemona is guilty, he can refute her outraged cries with long sentences, instead he simply say. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much!" A worm of doubt that sneaks into Othello's ear and lays its venomous seed, why is she so outraged? Why does she not simply laugh? Elaboration is fine but rambling over the same simple points is a waste of words, it simply loses ones audience, and Shakespeare knew how to keep an audience on the edge of their seats while making masterful use of his native tongue to argue his points. Worth bearing in mind if you wish to grab your audience, and make an impression.

1. Not really a case of being witty sir, more a case of effectively arguing ones viewpoint. In a vast morass of words meanings and ideas become difficult to find, however in a sharp, short and concise bullet point style one retains a punchy and memorable first impression. Brevity works, this is why memes, slogans and sayings are existant. 7. Content gating is fine, so long as one path is not the obviously optimal one. In the case of romances one either has a number of responses and interactions with the love interest, or they effectively disappear from the game. This is not really content gating, it's punishment for those whom choose not to partake in romance, and it comes at the cost of the npc themselves, making of them nothing but a romantic partner rather than an actual character. Re: Apology, explanation. Take it as you wish sir, I may have been a little flippant in my first post. Edit: And as we all know stripping romance interaction does not mean less interactions, it means simply choosing from a near infinite list of other interaction opportunities. More interaction at the cost of no romances, a fine thing in my mind, i'd far prefer to investigate animancy, cultural mores, traditions, stereotypes, the Engwithan legacy and the more in-depth parts of the setting.

Pathetic and uncalled for. Go troll elsewhere. Not trolling at all dear boy, I merely have a few issues with these "open letters" that keep cropping up, and their inevitable style: 1. Brevity is the soul of wit. Stop rambling make a point with each sentence, set an example and move on. Far more effective method of communication. 2. Why open? Obsidian are eminently contactable, do so, especially if one has backed their project and wishes to raise an objection. 3. No romances mean less deep interaction. This keeps on bing repeated and just sounds more ridiculous every time, there were other characters than Grace and Annah in Torment and they were arguably more interesting. Daakon's instruction in the way of the Zerth was hardly a small whimsical thing. 4. People know other people for years at a time and don't pursue romantic engagements, this doesn't make them psychopaths, asexual or unusual in any way. 5. We're approaching beta, it's a little late for such a complaint, and really if one is going to invest their money in a Kickstarter why would they not not keep their eye on it? Return on investment and whatnot? Caveat Emptor. 6. As a backer you have a perfect right to complain and argue for features you'd like, however rambling "open letters" have the freakish stink of the BSN about them. I'd say that if you wish discussion on the main boards then simply make a thread arguing your position. 7. Personally i'm glad of the no romance ruling and wish other developers would follow suit, especially if it means less content gated off behind romances, more deep characters with more interactions, and more getting to know ones acquaintances rather than engaging in cheesy teenage romance fiction. Edit: The content of the other "open letters" i've seen may have influenced my bias somewhat, one for instance had a mother asking her infant child not to commit rape when he grows up! As if it was the little lads honest wish to be a rapist or that she had no part in his upbring (which she probably shouldn't.) The stultifying idiocy of such letters leaves one quite aghast, so please consider that it is not just your missive that has raised such a scathing dismissiveness within me.

Commiserations.

"Open letter." I wish they'd just stay closed.

This. Edit: I assume our protagonist is a fully grown up individual at the height of their physical and mental potency, fully trained and with a background in their class. That being so, attribute advancement should be extremely rare, and rewarding of course.

Suffer not the promancer to talk, else his squeeing echo. Suffer not the promancer to see, lest he lay his diseased gaze on a goodly woman. Suffer not the promancer to touch, for he is debased and diseased. Suffer not the promancer to hear, for all he shall hear is scorn. Suffer not the promancer to taste, do not nourish evil. Suffer not the promancer to live, else his deviancy spread.

So one has to ask why, considering that men have been the ones who fought, died and sacrificed for their countries throughout time, that we do not have a "Video Game Tropes against Men?" Where is our Arnold Suckitandsee, complaining of the thousands of dead males in video games, reinforcing the idea that we are all expendable. That we are just wage slaves, who must marry, provide for their female masters every whim and produce offspring, and then as Mr Volourn points out have we fulfilled our function? Reducing us to gunfodder, providers, taxpayers and breeders rather than sapient beings, worthy in their own right. One could make a very strong argument without even much research that we have been the victims of a Matriarchy, and that we are only now breaking free of that environment and the societal roles forced upon us. I wonder why nobody has embraced such a philosophy? Or have they and I am simply ignorant of this movement? After all there's always a great attraction in playing the victim, or championing them, it lends a certain air of moral invulnerability, and of course a surefire belief that one is right. Interesting thought Mr Calax. Edit: Then again I would be mainly interested in seeing such a movement arise for the sheer humourness of it, sure to provoke outrage and many heated debates.

It is nice but I personally also found the general hubbub of voices used in the Smouldering Corpse was perfectly adequate, and repetition is less of a problem because of the indistinct nature of the sounds.

I caught myself giggling with enjoyment today, that hasn't happened in at least five years. Is this an incline I see before me?

Agreed, it's quite a departure from the first games almost realistic aesthetic, and not one I particularly enjoy. That said I can get over it and i'm currently simply enjoying playing around with the character creator, refreshingly detailed. Not very impressed with the voice acting, rather middle of the road.

Not really any of my business, I certainly hope Obsidian has massive success with Poe, but so long as I recieve my game then our transaction has been satisfactory. It would be nice to see one of the few developers who make intelligent and reactive games succeed, especially considering my enjoyment of their previous properties, but I personally judge only on what a company does for me as any smart consumer should in my opinion. Sorry if that sounds a little selfish. Edit: I do believe there is a market beyond our grognard niche, and I believe it's been largely abandoned due to various reasons.

Yes still waiting for DOS to unlock on GOG, doesn't want to download for some reason, trifle irritating as I took the day off. Think i'll avoid the beta for this exact reason, and the freshness of the experience.

Homosexual romances were included in games twenty plus years ago Bruce, try Ultima VII, parts one and two for an example. They were very widely lauded at the time, and the characters in questions weren't shown to be incompetent, idle and unmotivated idiots like those in Bioware games. If I were you though Bruce i'd choose better reading matter, this gentleman is barely literate and your arguments aren't really going to improve if this is your inspiration.

Well i'm totally against the Bioware method of "sexism is wrong mmmkay" and preaching at ones audience like they're children, but there are an almost infinite amount of methods to approach any subject, one simply needs imagination. Showing how women are an integral part of Mercian society, their strength and potency in the face of adversity, dealing with the individuals who make up society rather than generalisations, this can be done through simple demonstrations of people and places rather than the protagonist being bluntly told. I'm not familiar with Offa's realm so I can't particularly expand on this particular aspect but almost any scenario could be played out subtly and with nuance. As for the developers endorsing gender inequality that's just silly, and even the most progressive game with empowered female role models will attract idiots who look for outrage, while others that portray women in a positively demeaning light will be lauded because they spout a few appropriate press releases and say they support politically correct causes while doing nothing substantive. As usual artists should court controversy and seek to push the boundaries, because society at large is usually wrong and refuses to move on. Edit: And once again if we are seeking to make a game that offends nobody then what features can possibly be left in?

Busting French balls, certainly not sir, one cannot break the non existent. Ha only jesting, entente cordiale and whatnot. Eradicating France to make the Angevin Empire a reality would not I think have increased French dominance in Europe, more eradicated it. Generally I agree the English kings should have been content with the lands of home and securing their throne and lands, rather than adventuring on the continent, but I suppose one has to have a hobby. I'm personally fine with controversy, exploration of interesting themes and very deep nuanced settings, these make a fun and great game for me.

Well that's kinda the whole point, isn't it. You can't have total historical accuracy in an RPG because if you do, the sheer dreary *dullness* will overpower its main purpose: Which is to be a Role playing game; to be fun to play. And I think that's the main reason why having a game set in a feudal setting, and then taking the details of such a setting all the way to 100% - where you have to implement complete gender inequality in virtually all aspects of the game's systems, from the Story, to the quest lines, to the NPC interactions, to the visuals, and even to the player character generation screen choices... will end up being a very unappealing 'game' to even the fringe of the gaming masses.... even if it does end up being more 'interesting' than sitting in class and simply listening to the professor giving a standard lecture on the subject. Just so long as we are not cherry picking certain aspects to sweep under the rug for the sake of political correctness (i.e. lying) then yes I agree, the main point of a game is to have fun. The internal consistency of a game may mean that it has to deal with a thorny subject or two however, meaning part of the fun is in embracing that setting and dealing with the subject in a more mature manner. For instance if we have a sexist feudal society where the good book states that woman is evil and the mother of sin, let the protagonist be a woman and fight such a role, or have npcs who show how ridiculous such generalisation is through their every action. There is plenty of inspiration, Eleanor of Aquitaine is a quite good example of a power player, independent minded, clever and a very real force in politics and the world. Joan of Arc, though never having fought in a battle or killed a man, served as a rallying cry for the French when it looked like we English had finally come close to ending their tyrannous reign as the European superstate. There are plenty more examples in history, not to mention other cultures where womens roles though strictly defined meant that they were honoured and had power over certain aspects, for instance the Old Norse believed that a woman ruled the home, could divorce her husband if unsatisfied and could lead the house if her husband died. However i'm rather against making a modern day setting with a slight renaissance fayre flavour such as Bioware favours, with no seperate cultures, no downsides, no oppression or any other detail. If one has allready achieved a perfect society, with no problems or issues then what is the point of adventuring. If one deals with no thorny subjects then what of combat as a feature, thievery, grave robbing and all the elements that make up the game. Personally as I see it, deal with any issue, but deal with it in a nuanced, intelligent and mature manner. In the case of female npcs do not have idle, unmotivated, incompetent, idiots who cannot even dress themselves appropriately for the weather or combat, and come and go slavishly at the protagonists bidding for years at a time for no reason whatsoever. Instead have self motivated women who take control of their own lives, are integral to the plot, are clever and potent, and pursue their own agenda with or without the protagonists help. This is only my own humble opinion however, respectfully presented, and personally I would prefer that everything were presented subtly. Less preaching and obvious moralising, more raising questions for ones audience to answer as they see fit, after all we are all intelligent grown ups to be respected, not talked down to.

Personally I regard buying the game in a similar manner as any other transaction, sure we get a little more feedback and a chance to contribute somewhat, but I want Obsidian's vision not mine as their previous games have been very much to my liking. Once I have the game I don't expect Obsidian to ask how i'm playing or intrude upon my personal time, similarly I don't want to know what Obsidian does with the monies i've paid for the game, that's none of my business. They're a company and they're entitled to make a profit for their work, if one doesn't agree, then one is free to wait until Poe is released through the normal channels, Steam, GOG or what have you.