Leferd

The lightside ending was perfect. Especially for a Star Wars game.

Joining in the fun; here's something more holistic: http://www.theforce.net/timeline/

Yuthara Ban is one of the best written npc's of the last few years. I wouldn't mind seeing here in any form for the sequel. But perhaps it is best to keep her from being joinable -so as to keep her redemption in tact. (assuming she was redeemed)

I accept opposing viewpoints just fine. Just look at the political threads in OT, or don't, I don't care. Anyways I thought I came across as a pragmatist there... However I don't see where you two are going with this... Look, I am being civil. Heck, I even threw out an olive brance --a link that self-deprecates our "geekiness"...(but if you took it the wrong way...either I'm a bad writer, or you need to lighten up, have a thicker skin, or a combination of) If I'm reading you right, then you like Exar Kun. That's fine. More power to you. I think he's a great UBG (ultimate bad guy). You think he's the most badass sith who's ever lived. That's great. He could be. You think he's a great tragic figure. That's where I disagree with you. The Exar Kun characterization is really not all that complex -as compared to say...Ulic Qel-Droma. From his introduction in Dark Lords of the Sith, we see just how nasty a person he was. He disrepects, outright lies, and disobeys his master. He has feelings of utter contempt for his fellow jedi trainees -even shouting racial slurs over their alien inferiority. And no, he was not "tricked" into abandoning the jedi ways by Freedon Nadd and the other sith spirits. He was well into the path of the darkside. His trying to access the lightside during his conversion was the way he had been trained to use the Force. That was Exar Kun in denial. He may not have consciously wanted to be a darksider -but that was the path he was treading. Master Arca on Ossus immediately sensed that when they met. Whatever the case, Exar Kun ultimately had a choice: embrace the darkside and become power incarnate or keep whatever jedi principles he had left and die a jedi (nomatter how flawed a jedi). Look, in order to be considered a great tragic figure -there has to be some sort of redeemable quality in him. Earlier in this thread there was talk of of the great Shakespearian tragic figures: MacBeth, Ceaser etc., they were all sympathic figures who were considered heroes at one point or another. Does Exar Kun fit that mold? Ulic Qel-Droma sure did. Now if I am completely off base in my comprehension of your arguements then tell me why. But going with the "You don't accept other points of view except your own" route is just plain lame. (and no. this is not an attack with any sort of malice in my part) In my previous posts I explained why I liked Ulic. Now let me pose a question to you: What makes you like the Exar Kun character so much? I like him as a fascinating villain. If you already stated that, my apologies, perhaps I need it spelled out. Humor me. (this question is for DSM, Nur Ab Sal or anyone else)

no worries

it's on the SW general discussion page under the header: New interview July 2nd

It's the same one as before. It's the thought that counts.

If I recall, the in-game bastila was supposed to look like the box bastila, but bioware decided to go with the current bastila look. don't recall if it was due to fan demand though...

your view of personal attack was irony on my part. (we were BOTH discussing characters from a very obscure comic book and so i attempted to bring in some levity to our discussion by bringing up that "geek bible" -which apparantly gave you the impression of the exact opposite response i was going for) that said...i would never in my wildest dreams consider exar kun to be a tragic figure.

okaaaay.... I'm curious -are you one of those guys who enjoyed this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books ? The situation you describe was exactly as I put it. He was in denial. He hadn't completely turned yet but he was well on his path. By that time, he had already given in to anger. He had already lied to and blatantly disobeyed Jedi Masters. He had already...aww heck! READ BETWEEN THE LINES. If he had not already explicitly turned --it was implicit. Unlike Qel-Droma, there was nothing in Exar Kun to redeem.

I don't see the need of adding a dvd-rom drive to my pc. If I'm going to watch a dvd, I'd rather watch it on an actual television.

That is very interesting. Thanks Akari. *note to self: put points into Force Clairvoyance.

to tell the truth...i absolutely hated the jedi academy series of books by anderson. He made his threats too damn powerful. The sun eater thingie being more powerful than the death star. Exar Kun being too powerful. It was getting a little too ridiculous.

good point. If one, then Carth. If two, then Carth and HK. Makes most sense storywise.

I don't really see the point of why any of those characters should return as playable npc's. Canderous and HK would be loyal to Revan. Zaalbar and Mission were bit players and really weren't all that important. Carth has his own problems to worry about. Jolee and Juhani are probably dead (for plot reasons).

Ok...now we're heading into territory I never read about: the ancient sith books. If what you say is true, then great, my bad. What I am more interested in was about the stories themselves concerning Qel-Droma and Kun. Qel-Droma was supposed to be the tragic hero figure. Kun was set up to be the great baddie villain. They approached the dark side for different reasons and goals. Qel-Droma wanted to defeat the dark side by using its secrets against itself. Kun wanted to embrace and learn about the dark side for his own personal gain. There was nothing inherently altruistic about Kun. The more followers he had, the more powerful he could become. As to which of the 2 characters the creators cared more about consider this: Kevin J. Anderson used Exar Kun as his main baddie for his Jedi Academy books and tied it in with the TotJ series. Ulic was first introduced in the Dark Empire series as a warning to Jedi about the follies of learning the dark side. Ulic had 2 series about his rise within the jedi order: (KoTOR & The Freedon Nadd Uprising) 1 about his fall: (Dark Lords of the Sith) 1 about the Sith War: (The Sith War) 1 about his redemption (Redemption) The main protaganist in the books above was Ulic. Sure the spotlight was shared with Nomi Sunrider and Exar Kun, but Ulic was the constant. And in all of that, the series that was given the most care was Redemption. You could see it in the detail of the art work (drawn by Chris Gosset whose previous work in the series was mediocre). You could see it in the writing. It was the most personal and character driven story of the series. It dealt with Ulic as a man. Not as a (fallen) Jedi. The one flaw in the book was that Anderson tried to fit in too many plotlines in the story which all converged on Ulic. 1) Ulic hiding from his past 2) Nomi trying to rebuild the Jedi and forget Ulic 3) Vima seeking Jedi training 4) Sylvar trying to purge her darkside anger (centered on Ulic) Ulic was able to redeem himself by helping the other three. Though blinded to the Force, he knew the nature of the Force as much as any Jedi Master and understood how the Dark Side worked. As far as Exar Kun...yeah. He was a baddass villain.

Wow. Now I feel really bad for even bringing up Macbeth. Never thought the discussion would actually turn to Shakespeare...my apologies. I have no real problems with Exar Kun as a character. But there was really nothing tragic about him. He was conceived to be this baddy villian and he fit the role. Ulic Qel-Droma was the main protaganist of the TotJ series and from the beginning it was alluded that he would eventually fall to the dark side. The series chronicled his rise within the Jedi order and then his fall and eventual, but tragic redemption. What you saw as weakness was really the good in him...the feeling of guilt and remorse. He joined the dark side with noble intentions --hoping to defeat the dark forces by infiltrating their ranks, learning their secrets, and using that to defeat them. His pride got the best of him though and he did fall. It's not so much that he was undecisive but that he never fully gave in to the darkside like Exar Kun did. I'm sorry but Exar Kun never really put up much of a defense in trying to reject it. He was already falling to the dark side before he even got to the sith tombs, before he stole the jedi holocron. His co called defense against the sith spirit was just simply a futile case of "denial." He had already fallen before that. But yeah, you're right. Exar Kun was so much more of a Sith Lord than Ulic ever was. And I don't think Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma in their "partnership" ever really trusted one another. They needed each other but hated each others guts, so wasn't this so called "Betrayal" expected? Silly Exar Kun. That is the Sith way after all...

I call it my Civic Patriotic American Duty. C-PAD for short.

I was talking about the KoTOR 1 you realize... but i hope i'm right too

Exar Kun was completely one dimensional --even for a sith lord. A nasty powerhungry jedi who fell in love with sith teachings. Ulic Qel-Droma was a tragic figure similar to Macbeth (but not quite) Macbeth. Of course, Veitch and Anderson are no Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman as comic book writers but they managed to make Qel-Droma a sympathetic character who fell from grace. "Redemption" was different from the other TotJ books in that it was the only one whose story was not in an epic scale. I'd have to say that it was a moving story about one man trying to escape from his past even as that past was trying to catch up to him. Now that the cat is out of the bag (ie the shooting)...don't trivialize it. It ends the Ulic Qel-Droma saga complete in the literal and metaphorical sense.

Yuthara Ban was an excellent character. I believe David Gaider said that Bioware considered making her a joinable NPC. I could be wrong though...

good op-ed piece titled: "Calling Bush a Liar" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/opinion/30KRIS.html (may need to register -but it is free and well worth it)

Well the story of Ulic and Exar Kun are connected and told in Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War: SPOILERS *once again putting on geek hat* Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were both powerful jedi who approached the dark side for different reasons and in different ways. Kun was a relatively unknown jedi who and nasty bugger who was interested in gaining more power and learning the forbidden knowledge of Sith teachings. He was goaded/tempted by Sith spirits and embraced the dark side. Ulic Qel-Droma was a famous and well known hero of the republic. He did not have the thirst in knowledge that Kun had but was already satisfied and proud of his own abilities. There was an uprising in far off star system and it was discovered that the instigators of this uprising were powered by the dark side and sith teachings. Ulic believed that the best way to defeat this menace was to learn the secrets of the dark side and destroy them from within. His master Arca, brother Cay, and his lover Nomi Sunrider tried to dissuade him to no avail. He was confident in his own ability to resist the dark side. So of course...his own pride got the best of him and he joined this uprising and became their leader. The unthinkable happened as the greatest and most reknowned of the Jedi fell to the dark side. Eventually he teamed up with Exar Kun and became his sith apprentice as they became the Dark Lords of the Sith . Ulic recruited the Mandalorian clans to join his war and he became the military general of the Sith fleet while Exar Kun sought to convert and eradicate the Jedi. The details of this war was relayed in KoTOR by the Jedi Council and Jolee Bindo. Kun eventually retreated to Yavin 4. As for Ulic, his brother Cay tried to bring him back to the light side but was killed by Ulic in combat. Ulic could not believe what he had done and that was when he abandoned the dark side. However it was too late as at that moment Nomi Sunrider in semi-rage used her power to permanantly block the Force from Ulic. (similiar to the PC in KoTOR 2) Ulic then spent the rest of his life seeking isolation and a quiet death -full of grief and guilt until Nomi's daughter, Vima tracked him down so she could be trained in the ways of the jedi.

oops. by Atreas i meant Kreia. kreia = nomi atris = vima i hope that makes more sense.

wild speculation: Kreia and Atris = Sunriders in hiding? It would work with the Master/Apprentice theme the devs were talking about. Vima being resentful of how Nomi ignored training her. There was some talk of how Kreia was supposed to be a mysterious mentor type figure to the PC. Maybe some sort of atonement? Atris/Vima resentful of it...keeping her dark side anger in check while remembering her cherished memories of her own mentor --Ulic Qel-Droma. Parallels the original trilogy in a way too: Kreia/Nomi being the Ben Kenobi figure seeking atonement for failure of training Anakin with Nomi's failure to train Atris/Vima. "Help me Nomi Sunrider, you're my only hope." just some WILD speculation. *edited names