Leferd

your view of personal attack was irony on my part. (we were BOTH discussing characters from a very obscure comic book and so i attempted to bring in some levity to our discussion by bringing up that "geek bible" -which apparantly gave you the impression of the exact opposite response i was going for) that said...i would never in my wildest dreams consider exar kun to be a tragic figure.

okaaaay.... I'm curious -are you one of those guys who enjoyed this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books ? The situation you describe was exactly as I put it. He was in denial. He hadn't completely turned yet but he was well on his path. By that time, he had already given in to anger. He had already lied to and blatantly disobeyed Jedi Masters. He had already...aww heck! READ BETWEEN THE LINES. If he had not already explicitly turned --it was implicit. Unlike Qel-Droma, there was nothing in Exar Kun to redeem.

I don't see the need of adding a dvd-rom drive to my pc. If I'm going to watch a dvd, I'd rather watch it on an actual television.

That is very interesting. Thanks Akari. *note to self: put points into Force Clairvoyance.

to tell the truth...i absolutely hated the jedi academy series of books by anderson. He made his threats too damn powerful. The sun eater thingie being more powerful than the death star. Exar Kun being too powerful. It was getting a little too ridiculous.

good point. If one, then Carth. If two, then Carth and HK. Makes most sense storywise.

I don't really see the point of why any of those characters should return as playable npc's. Canderous and HK would be loyal to Revan. Zaalbar and Mission were bit players and really weren't all that important. Carth has his own problems to worry about. Jolee and Juhani are probably dead (for plot reasons).

Ok...now we're heading into territory I never read about: the ancient sith books. If what you say is true, then great, my bad. What I am more interested in was about the stories themselves concerning Qel-Droma and Kun. Qel-Droma was supposed to be the tragic hero figure. Kun was set up to be the great baddie villain. They approached the dark side for different reasons and goals. Qel-Droma wanted to defeat the dark side by using its secrets against itself. Kun wanted to embrace and learn about the dark side for his own personal gain. There was nothing inherently altruistic about Kun. The more followers he had, the more powerful he could become. As to which of the 2 characters the creators cared more about consider this: Kevin J. Anderson used Exar Kun as his main baddie for his Jedi Academy books and tied it in with the TotJ series. Ulic was first introduced in the Dark Empire series as a warning to Jedi about the follies of learning the dark side. Ulic had 2 series about his rise within the jedi order: (KoTOR & The Freedon Nadd Uprising) 1 about his fall: (Dark Lords of the Sith) 1 about the Sith War: (The Sith War) 1 about his redemption (Redemption) The main protaganist in the books above was Ulic. Sure the spotlight was shared with Nomi Sunrider and Exar Kun, but Ulic was the constant. And in all of that, the series that was given the most care was Redemption. You could see it in the detail of the art work (drawn by Chris Gosset whose previous work in the series was mediocre). You could see it in the writing. It was the most personal and character driven story of the series. It dealt with Ulic as a man. Not as a (fallen) Jedi. The one flaw in the book was that Anderson tried to fit in too many plotlines in the story which all converged on Ulic. 1) Ulic hiding from his past 2) Nomi trying to rebuild the Jedi and forget Ulic 3) Vima seeking Jedi training 4) Sylvar trying to purge her darkside anger (centered on Ulic) Ulic was able to redeem himself by helping the other three. Though blinded to the Force, he knew the nature of the Force as much as any Jedi Master and understood how the Dark Side worked. As far as Exar Kun...yeah. He was a baddass villain.

Wow. Now I feel really bad for even bringing up Macbeth. Never thought the discussion would actually turn to Shakespeare...my apologies. I have no real problems with Exar Kun as a character. But there was really nothing tragic about him. He was conceived to be this baddy villian and he fit the role. Ulic Qel-Droma was the main protaganist of the TotJ series and from the beginning it was alluded that he would eventually fall to the dark side. The series chronicled his rise within the Jedi order and then his fall and eventual, but tragic redemption. What you saw as weakness was really the good in him...the feeling of guilt and remorse. He joined the dark side with noble intentions --hoping to defeat the dark forces by infiltrating their ranks, learning their secrets, and using that to defeat them. His pride got the best of him though and he did fall. It's not so much that he was undecisive but that he never fully gave in to the darkside like Exar Kun did. I'm sorry but Exar Kun never really put up much of a defense in trying to reject it. He was already falling to the dark side before he even got to the sith tombs, before he stole the jedi holocron. His co called defense against the sith spirit was just simply a futile case of "denial." He had already fallen before that. But yeah, you're right. Exar Kun was so much more of a Sith Lord than Ulic ever was. And I don't think Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma in their "partnership" ever really trusted one another. They needed each other but hated each others guts, so wasn't this so called "Betrayal" expected? Silly Exar Kun. That is the Sith way after all...

I call it my Civic Patriotic American Duty. C-PAD for short.

I was talking about the KoTOR 1 you realize... but i hope i'm right too

Exar Kun was completely one dimensional --even for a sith lord. A nasty powerhungry jedi who fell in love with sith teachings. Ulic Qel-Droma was a tragic figure similar to Macbeth (but not quite) Macbeth. Of course, Veitch and Anderson are no Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman as comic book writers but they managed to make Qel-Droma a sympathetic character who fell from grace. "Redemption" was different from the other TotJ books in that it was the only one whose story was not in an epic scale. I'd have to say that it was a moving story about one man trying to escape from his past even as that past was trying to catch up to him. Now that the cat is out of the bag (ie the shooting)...don't trivialize it. It ends the Ulic Qel-Droma saga complete in the literal and metaphorical sense.

Yuthara Ban was an excellent character. I believe David Gaider said that Bioware considered making her a joinable NPC. I could be wrong though...

good op-ed piece titled: "Calling Bush a Liar" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/opinion/30KRIS.html (may need to register -but it is free and well worth it)

Well the story of Ulic and Exar Kun are connected and told in Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War: SPOILERS *once again putting on geek hat* Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were both powerful jedi who approached the dark side for different reasons and in different ways. Kun was a relatively unknown jedi who and nasty bugger who was interested in gaining more power and learning the forbidden knowledge of Sith teachings. He was goaded/tempted by Sith spirits and embraced the dark side. Ulic Qel-Droma was a famous and well known hero of the republic. He did not have the thirst in knowledge that Kun had but was already satisfied and proud of his own abilities. There was an uprising in far off star system and it was discovered that the instigators of this uprising were powered by the dark side and sith teachings. Ulic believed that the best way to defeat this menace was to learn the secrets of the dark side and destroy them from within. His master Arca, brother Cay, and his lover Nomi Sunrider tried to dissuade him to no avail. He was confident in his own ability to resist the dark side. So of course...his own pride got the best of him and he joined this uprising and became their leader. The unthinkable happened as the greatest and most reknowned of the Jedi fell to the dark side. Eventually he teamed up with Exar Kun and became his sith apprentice as they became the Dark Lords of the Sith . Ulic recruited the Mandalorian clans to join his war and he became the military general of the Sith fleet while Exar Kun sought to convert and eradicate the Jedi. The details of this war was relayed in KoTOR by the Jedi Council and Jolee Bindo. Kun eventually retreated to Yavin 4. As for Ulic, his brother Cay tried to bring him back to the light side but was killed by Ulic in combat. Ulic could not believe what he had done and that was when he abandoned the dark side. However it was too late as at that moment Nomi Sunrider in semi-rage used her power to permanantly block the Force from Ulic. (similiar to the PC in KoTOR 2) Ulic then spent the rest of his life seeking isolation and a quiet death -full of grief and guilt until Nomi's daughter, Vima tracked him down so she could be trained in the ways of the jedi.

oops. by Atreas i meant Kreia. kreia = nomi atris = vima i hope that makes more sense.

wild speculation: Kreia and Atris = Sunriders in hiding? It would work with the Master/Apprentice theme the devs were talking about. Vima being resentful of how Nomi ignored training her. There was some talk of how Kreia was supposed to be a mysterious mentor type figure to the PC. Maybe some sort of atonement? Atris/Vima resentful of it...keeping her dark side anger in check while remembering her cherished memories of her own mentor --Ulic Qel-Droma. Parallels the original trilogy in a way too: Kreia/Nomi being the Ben Kenobi figure seeking atonement for failure of training Anakin with Nomi's failure to train Atris/Vima. "Help me Nomi Sunrider, you're my only hope." just some WILD speculation. *edited names

*putting on geek hat and using comic book guy voice* Well actually...Vima was four years old during the events of the Sith War. KoTOR took place 40 years (or was it 30?) after it. Bioware could have easily had the story take place 20 years after it (if they wanted to make Bastila/Vima in her 20's. Bioware actually did not (as I am sure Obsidian) have full access to the SW property. All storylines, characters, etc., had to be approved by Lucasfilm/Lucasarts. They could not make any changes or add ons to the game during the development cycle without their approval. This is the case with all licensed property.

Bioware has too many projects going on at this time to follow up on KoTOR. They are more interested in developing their own IP then working with a crutch that is the "licensed property."

Actually...I generally find most of Anderson's writing to be quite dull. Compared to Veitch, it's a huge improvement. The story of Exar Kun in tandem with Ulic Qel-Droma's plunge to the dark side did make fun reading though. Made his redemption so much more...(now that would be a spoiler) Since we are on the subject of the comics, I read somewhere that Bastila was originally supposed to be Vima Sunrider (Nomi's daughter), but that idea was scratched. It certainly could have made sense within KoTOR's general plotline. I wonder if hmmm....Obsidian can/will revisit this character...or are there licensing conflicts associated with directly using these characters?

I have to disagree with you regarding Veitch. Now I'm not familiar with his work outside of SW but as a SW comic book writer...he's a hack. I'll give credit where its due: He's got some really terrific ideas for storylines and character concepts but he is a terrible writer. His stories didn't pace very well. Too many words in too few pages. Ridiculous dialogue. To be honest, I haven't read "Golden Age of the Sith" or "Fall of the Sith Empire" but I believe Kevin Anderson wrote those along with "Sith War" and "Redemption". I believe Exar Kun was a Kevin Anderson created character. Anderson collaborated with Veitch on "Dark Lords of the Sith" and that was when I could see Anderson's influence on Veitch's writing. But when Anderson took full control on "The Sith War" --the storyline became so much clearer and the dialogue less banal.

"The first book of Tales of the Jedi is called The Golden Age of the Sith" ...from a certain point of view. Actually the first series written of Tales of the Jedi was called "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon." Together with "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider" they made up "Knights of the Old Republic" in trade paperback form. "The Golden Age of the Sith" was written years later but is the first to take place chronologically in EU's timeline. Personally, I found that of all the 'Tales of the Jedi'...only "Sith War" and especially "Redemption" were really good reads. The rest were mediocre. The stories were fine, but the art and dialogue were just atrocious.

Ender, I totally disagree with your views but i respect your arguements. Vault, i think bush is horrible but your "arguements" are just sad.

To be fair, I dislike the Bush administration. Especially the Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft faction. Really the only saving grace of this administration as far as my opinion goes lies with Colin Powell. Even then, I dislike his son (who heads the FCC). Michael Moore is a good film maker. He's not really a political documentarian. Leave that to guys like Errol Morris. Moore has a tendency to overstate his case. His films are very good at mobilizing the liberal crowd and pissing off conservatives. Such as how President Bush the Second is good at doing the exact opposite. What Moore did in Fahrenheit was present an arguement. He does not try to be balanced with it. What he is trying to do is spark debate and try to remove the Bush administration from office. This film is strictly an opinion piece, and it is up to the viewer to decide whether his arguements are valid or BS.

Bush is certainly unique. It is true that Bush is the only US President with a Master's degree. An MBA. Most Presidents were Lawyers or Generals in background. hmmm....war....profit....mba....