BruceVC

I agree, Chechens have a history of brutality even amongst the ranks of Islamic fundamentalists

I'm going to buy this game, its a good price on GOG

Nah, I don't agree with that. A friendship bond is important but a bond where you actually have a Romance relationship with someone is always going to be deeper and generally more meaningful. Its obvious really? So...wouldn't that mean you're being cheated of the obviously superior PC-NPC relationship if you can't romance every companion at the same time (as exclusivity would require that you miss superior romance relationships)? In a RPG this shouldn't make a major difference as the dialogue options are more or less similar if you Romance or don't Romance. But if you choose to not Romance someone or you attempt to Romance someone and fail you may be cheated out of certain quests or developments, like the Lolth attack on Viconia in BG2 that I believe was Romance initiated But end of the day the Romance option is more of RP development that shouldn't penalize a person who chooses not to participate O..kay? So a romance is "always...deeper and ... more meaningful" but it "shouldn't make a major difference" and "shouldn't penalize a person who chooses not to participate"? Isn't that contradictory? Its either deeper and more meaningful - and thus superior, or its just a different, equally viable alternative relationship, surely? In other words, you didn't answer the question posed to you. You dodged it. We weren't discussing marriage and kids. And citing marriage as "proof" that romances are always deeper, or even potentially deeper is really silly, since most romances don't result in marriage anyway, and even the ones that do aren't necessarily deeper than a good friendship. The point remains. All Relationships run the entire spectrum of depth. We've all had friends we value more than some of the people we've dated. And vise versa. Therefore, your claim that Romance is always deeper is false. I have been thinking about what you guys are saying and I am going to change what I originally said. Romance doesn't always mean the relationship is deeper or more meaningful. Thanks for helping me understand that, I was wrong But of course in the context of an RPG I still maintain that Romance adds to a more immersive and memorable RP experience with your party members

Nah, I don't agree with that. A friendship bond is important but a bond where you actually have a Romance relationship with someone is always going to be deeper and generally more meaningful. Its obvious really? So...wouldn't that mean you're being cheated of the obviously superior PC-NPC relationship if you can't romance every companion at the same time (as exclusivity would require that you miss superior romance relationships)? In a RPG this shouldn't make a major difference as the dialogue options are more or less similar if you Romance or don't Romance. But if you choose to not Romance someone or you attempt to Romance someone and fail you may be cheated out of certain quests or developments, like the Lolth attack on Viconia in BG2 that I believe was Romance initiated But end of the day the Romance option is more of RP development that shouldn't penalize a person who chooses not to participate

Yes that is true. My friends are extremely important to me Are you going to actually answer his question? Or does everyone on this thread have to sit here and watch your slimy debating style for 10 more pages? He's got you. The fact of the matter is that it IS a spectrum. We've all had friends we value more than some of the people we've dated. And vise versa. Therefore, your claim that Romance is always deeper is false. "slimy debating style " That made me laugh, I didn't think this debate made such a big deal to you that you feel the need to make a personal attack on people who don't agree with you But no sadly, no one has "got me". But nice try I merely acknowledged that my friends are very important to me but that doesn't change the fact that my ex-fiancée was equally important to me, if not more so. I can't marry my friends and have kids with them now can I?

How very simplistic to only see relationships in such a short range. And while romance may be deep for you, someone else may see a different type of relationship as being deeper than romance. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that friendship isn't important. It is very important. But once again if you become Romantically involved with someone and there is intimacy then you normally become even closer. So you move away from a platonic relationship to the next level You've had friends that were more important than people you've dated in the past right? It's a spectrum. Yes that is true. My friends are extremely important to me

How very simplistic to only see relationships in such a short range. And while romance may be deep for you, someone else may see a different type of relationship as being deeper than romance. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that friendship isn't important. It is very important. But once again if you become Romantically involved with someone and there is intimacy then you normally become even closer. So you move away from a platonic relationship to the next level

I remember we discussed this game, I'm going to purchase it

No. You can have deep and meaningful relationships without having them be romances. The mentor and student is one. The parent and child is another. And there may be instances (eg. vocation) where a person can't have a romance but still experience deep and meaningful relationships. Sure but if you are asking "what type of Relationship is the most deep" then apart from family obviously if you are Romantically involved with someone then that would normally be more significant? So for example a person would normally be closer to there wife or husband than a friend right? ( or they should be)

Woldan what does the company you work for do?

There are many NPC interactions you can have that are deep and meaningful and can be explored without having to resort to romance. Nah, I don't agree with that. A friendship bond is important but a bond where you actually have a Romance relationship with someone is always going to be deeper and generally more meaningful. Its obvious really?

Sorry Valmy but I have to dismiss that characterization of mens activists with utter contempt and say it is complete nonsense. Unless you can provide me some links that corroborate your post?

Unfortunately when I read this type of post I can only come to one conclusion. You are in fact not fine with the fact that PoE won't have Romance and this confusion manifests itself possibly subconsciously in posts like this

Of course that's always a good emotion to work with, betrayal. But about betrayal and then possible redemption? So in your example they take some items ( not XP ) and then you can track them down, find out why but still forgive them. Good Romance arc idea Malc

Or detracts from it horribly through an awkward, contrived and glued on accesssory feature that can never really grow to its full potential and casts a toxic shadow over everything else. Like it usually does. " That's definitely not the positive marketing spin on Romance folks, just in case anyone was wondering if it was "

All that proves is a lot of mod makers are lonely weirdos, really. Actually I think a lot of the mod makers are about extending the game; adding longer/new relationship strands is probably easier than trying to program something new into the game. Wow Malc, epic fail on your analysis on mod makers. Good post Amentep

Wow that was excellent, its like watching an exciting trailer for a movie

no, that's not how it began either. I said the game looked poor (visual design, UI, combat, writing), so I was probably missing something that one wouldn't see unless he played the game for a couple of hours (and I'd like to add that if a game takes many hours of playing to appreciate it's not a very good game to begin with; now that I think about it, Fallout 2 isn't a very good game: it's all filler areas disconnected from each other, with some very good NPC encounters and a lot of mindless combat - today I wouldn't give Fallout 2 a a single chance). so the argument that it's not enough to play it for 30 minutes to appreciate simply proves my point; that the game's design is far from stellar, it's very uneven, and it takes digging to get to the good parts. well, I don't have time for that, so I won't buy it. that is what I said, what followed was something that completely missed my point, though, saying that I couldn't tell an old school RPG from a dog turd, that my opinions aren't valid, I would assume because I don't like all the "kewl" RPGs so I'm clearly "not in the club" or something. I mean, come on, arguments like, "it's an old school RPG, but it's ok that it has a minimap and handholds you, because obviously games like NWN, WoW and Skyrim etc. proved that minimaps work, so why not include them" - no one sees the flaw in this kind of logic? man, I could go on and on, but I see it's pointless, most people here like this game so much they get very defensive when I try to criticize some aspects of it that are on the surface. as if it was they who made this game. and then I get called out for "lacking perspective", "play the game for 20 or so hours first". hey, wake up call: I'm not writing a review, this is a first-impressions discussion Sorophx I'm going to try to explain something to you because you seem to misunderstanding why people are criticizing you and you seem to feel you are the victim There are people who have played DO:S for dozens of hours and really can comment on what's good and bad about the game. You formulated a dismissive view of the game based on a video. You can deny this or not but this is what is considered an uninformed view of something. When this was pointed out you become defensive. The so called "fanboy" support of this game is from people who have an informed opinion of the game, you are not debating from this perspective. In life its good to sometimes admit you are wrong about a topic, it doesn't make you weak or make future comments less relevant. But your continued debating around this topic has just made you sound silly End of the day you cannot really comment on the game and all its flaws until you have personally played it

And I will still argue that the West aligning with Sunni dominated countries like Saudi Arabia makes sense and is the right strategy for the region to ensure future stability

But this raises a good point, a country can truly transform itself with the right political will. In 70 years Germany has become one of the most powerful and influential countries in the region, and the world, despite losing two world wars. Well done Germany on winning the world cup

These two posts accurately summarize the case for Romance from people who don't normally participate in this type of discussion. Romance adds to a more immersive and memorable RPG experience with your party members. These posts are what almost all people who want Romance feel and despite all the objections to Romance it doesn't change the logical reason for including them So good posts

Nonek before I make my point I want to say something. I enjoy debating with you because you have the ability to separate your emotions from the debate, in other words even if you think someone is being personal you don't normally dwell on that. You make your point based on the facts as you understand them. That is what I always try to do, I attack the argument..not the person ( of course I don't always get this right) So even though it may seem like I'm targeting your perspective I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you because I'm confident you can deal with my point without getting offended. Saying all that let me ask you an important question, I have noticed when it comes to your dislike of Isabella why is you always mention her clothes? If you disagree with me can you give me one example where you single out any character from Bioware where you make a point of pointing out there attire as one of the reasons you dislike the personality? I'll explain later why this is relevant

I want to make another observation, I have noticed a lot of criticism from many people towards Isabella. And it makes me question why? Why single out Isabella constantly when it comes to diatribe against the various DA2 characters. And the attacks against her are often personal, they are not based on logic There are several possible reasons for this but one reason is the fact that Isabella challengers the predefined gender roles that people are comfortable with. Isabella is a confident, vociferous and sexually driven person. She is not ashamed to talk about sex openly and how she can use sex to further her aims. She is totally liberated and its great to see So some people are not comfortable with this type of female personality, they prefer the meek and weak archetypical 1960's house wife. Isabella's confidence is seen as vacuous, annoying and unrealistic. But this is really about the positioning of gender roles and what people expect. And I'm NOT saying this is why you don't like her. You have explained before but this is about why others don't like her

Well done Netherlands !!!! All I can say is that you did your country proud

Funnily enough, when I see guys pipe up about not getting into playing chicks, they don't seem to get nearly as much flack as I do. What's up with that?! Yes your observations are 100 % accurate, its really about the obvious inequality around gender representation that exists in gaming nowadays. But the majority of people on these forums will tell you "there is no problem, feminists are always complaining", but as I've pointed out several times during similar discussions almost all active members on these forums are male gamers who are quote happy with the status quo..or are rather happy to not try to challenge it But there are several of us who do raise these issues, like Assassins Creed Unity, anyway its good to see a lady gamer raising this type of disparity . Things are changing in gaming and more and more people are intolerant of company's that don't cater for there entire fan base, so its is getting better. Albeit slowly