BruceVC

You very seldom follow-up on certain interesting comments you make so I hope you do on this one What is your definition of "Yuroppan countries are outside the EU" Oh Bruce, really, HoonDing is all about shooting one-liners and not following up on anything. Sometimes he has a point, and sometimes, like here, he doesn't. Besides, with a minimal amount of research you'd figure it out: There are only two truly prosperous European nations that are not members of the European Union: Norway and Switzerland (I apologize to any posters from Iceland ). The former draws most of its wealth from natural resources and the latter from all sorts of criminal cash deposits (I'd write no offense meant but that wold be a lie ). While both are not members of the EU they all have a large number of treaties with the EU and enjoy many benefits without the most perceivable downsides like net budget contributions and overbearing EU regulations, but also the downside of being affected by some EU regulations without being able to partake in the decision making process. So far it would seem the, uhm, benefits outweigh the downsides. For populist parties they're also generally the go-to examples of wealthy states that do not need the EU to be prosperous, but it's very problematic to assume a nation could leave the EU and copy either Norway or Switzerland because of their very unique positions. Both could, though, serve as a template for a much needed EU reform by cutting back on the bureaucratic overhead and taking a few steps back to what the EU used to be in the past, a unifying economic pact, not a supra-national entity steeped in indecision and corruption. You have made some very good observations and comments, thanks for sharing Yes I agree about Hoonding, he often makes interesting points but then refuses to get pulled into a debate. I am always fascinated by human nature and the human psyche. In RL I find it relatively easy to understand human nature and expected results but I find myself often confused by the responses of some people on forums like this. For example going back to Hoonding he clearly has knowledge of certain things we discuss yet he wont go into detail once he initiates the conversation...its a strange way to interact with people? I see what you guys mean by those two countries and as you said the right wing would make the comparison but my whole argument is to leave the EU once you are member for many years is much harder than people may assume. The entire way a country's financial, economic and political structures become aligned to how the EU requires them to be. So now you want to leave the EU and revert back to previous structures....fine in theory but much harder to do in practice

So Finland is to be protected from leaving the EU on the same basis that Finland shouldn't have declared independence from Russia in 1917: Because of bad economical forecasts. Got it. It may sound simplistic and myopic but yes, the economic outcome should be the most influential The problem is groups like the right wing, nationalists or EU skeptics have helped to change the narrative where this is not the focus What do you think is more relevant?

Thats irrelevant to the broader economic consequences of leaving the EU, so in summary my point is most countries who leave the EU will achieve what they think matters, border control and no more orders from Brussels My point is the severe economic consequences that will follow will have such a terrible impact the positive will be forgotten

Once again I appreciate your input I was just using Finland as an example because Meshugger lives there so the points I made are more common to all countries that may decide to leave the EU but these points would be less relevant to certain EU countries than others. So you right we need to look at each country separately. Realistically I dont consider Finland a country that will ever leave the EU, this is a good thing IMO But leaving EU will absolutely have different outcomes for different member states For example the UK will have less negative economic impact than most EU countries if it leaves....but there will be a negative impact. The question would be " how long will it last " But I would like to discuss Finland as you have good insights. What is the Finnish economy based on...is it banking, services, tourism? Do you know percentage figures based on GDP? I know I can google this myself but I am more interested in the personal views of an actual Finnish citizen

You very seldom follow-up on certain interesting comments you make so I hope you do on this one What is your definition of "Yuroppan countries are outside the EU"

Meshugger\KP I am going to share something with you that I wasn't going to because I thought you may see it as something negative..and I'm not sure if the other members who live in the EU are aware of this Okay the good news and really relevant point is you should see the EU as something grand and successful, Sure you have problems but it should be seen as an amazing experiment that works ....yet it requires certain structures and rules. You should be very happy and content in the EU and despite some complaints like Brussels the idea of leaving the EU is not a real option But lets say you are determined you want to leave !!!! And lets use Finland and say you represent the ruling right party There isn't any leaving the EU, not really. This is the truth that no one wants to understand, the EU works but it could only work through components like a single currency, central financial controls and then of course the integration into the free market within the EU Its genius and many other unions tried to copy this model and failed ..like the African Union But it is also inherently a trap ...a real economic conundrum that any country wanting to leave will realize...so lets explain the ending in points and please dispute them or ask other questions Somehow a right wing party would win the referendum in the country (this alone a herculean task ) and leave the EU The EU troika would by now have given up on this country and would be preparing Finland's exit but they would be annoyed and would have to make a surreptitious point...a realistic but conceivable point to make sure no other countries follow Finland All Finish visas within the EU would be expired in 3 months or so and all Finnish citizens would be forced to return to Finland to reapply. But now most positions would be fulled by other EU candidates Almost every single hedge fund or investor would pull out of Finland, I cannot stress this enough as there would be almost no chance an investor in Finland would stay before Finland leaves the EU due to all the uncertainty around the economy Finland would return to using the Finnish markka, initially the value of the Finnish markka would be practicly worthless. So we are also talking about all the numerous financial issues with using a weak currency There would be huge pressure on every financial instituon in Finland as the various banks work out how they will now incorporate the new currency The credit rating agencies would downgrade Finland to Junk status All these points effectively means Finland would be under unprecedented economic pressure, I doubt anyone in Finland would remember what its like to go from first to third world. Its not the fault of people in the EU but all these right wing groups screaming for " sovereignty ", " down with the EU " and "self-rule " are looking at this whole thing from a nationalistic perspective. They cannot possibly predict or understand the real economic pressure this will put on the counttry Finally imagine the reality ....Finland leaves the EU !!! And now what? No longer does Brussels dictate policy and no longer are immigrant quotas enforced on Finland but at what cost? A country outside the EU that use to be part of the EU seems like a lonely and ultimately pointless place to be at? What real economic benefit does this bring to the citizens and that should be the only question these right wing groups should be asking themselves " does leaving the EU bring real and sustainable benefit to its citizens" For me the answer is an unequivocal NO

Huh? You mean there are women outside strip clubs....I find that hard to believe

Volo you cant seriously expect to produce a link with almost no evidence and think it will be taken seriously ?

I reject the veracity of this link, it smacks of bias and sexism

I have had similar and its normally gastro or stomach related but I remember how weird it was to not feel hungry for 2 days ? I smoked a joint at the time and that restored my appetite

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship. Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail? But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing Why do you even ask permission? Your opinion does exist on the approval others, doesn't it? Yes I am nearly done....and yes I agree there is no point asking for permission but if no one is interested in me writing a long post I wont bother because what would be the point and its a waste of time But I do want to make this point, so I was looking for someone who would read it because its a few paragraphs And then people read it later and comment I don't think these nations need to be protected from leaving the EU. If they decide to do that, then so be it. They're not children and they don't need an overbearing EU sanction government father to protect them from making what he (or you) thinks are dangerous mistakes. Comments like the one from Juncker are also completely and utterly stupid (voting for right-wing populists now becomes the clearest act of defiance available to the general populace), but hey, what can anyone expect from the EPP these days. *sigh* I can understand that view, its reasonable but it ignores the real and extreme economic risk countries face who leave the EU but read my post about this as its aimed at all you guys who live in the EU I'm not trying to scare you or suggest I know more than you but these considerations are from my cousins who are much clever than me and work in emerging markets at HSBC in the UK....they very worried about the future of all countries staying in the EU They have done risk assessments of what if a country leaves the EU and I added my own concerns. I dont think the EU is trying to be condescending but there is real risk that I doubt these right wing parties think of But ultimately this is based on a risk assessment so its just suppose to be a fairly accurate warning...but my cousins are normally accurate. They did one for South Africa and were about 60-70 % right

I was always for Trump. Im sure there was time you did say you weren't going to vote?

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship. Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail? But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing Why do you even ask permission? Your opinion does exist on the approval others, doesn't it? Yes I am nearly done....and yes I agree there is no point asking for permission but if no one is interested in me writing a long post I wont bother because what would be the point and its a waste of time But I do want to make this point, so I was looking for someone who would read it because its a few paragraphs And then people read it later and comment

Greens didn't lose Gore the election and if Hillary loses because certain voters think she would make a poor president and said voters go Green instead it's on her for being a bad candidate. I know most of you youngsters were still in diapers back then, but some historical perspective. Gore actually won the popular vote, and only lost Florida by 500 votes. Had Nader not been on the ballot, certainly Gore would've won Florida and the election. But definitely all the lefties should vote Green, Go whatever-her-name! WoD any idea who will you vote for now..Trump is toning down the Rhetoric

I'm still disappointed by your ideological change but I am hoping hard evidence will change your mind I can make that long post if you want about the EU ..but only if you want

Foucault? I had never heard of him but I do know about the psychology of pedophiles and habitual rapists and both these mental sicknesses are normally caused by abuse themselves or childhood trauma ?

I'll be honest there is something none of the guys who live in the EU realize ...I can post it but it will take time?

Roofles What you think rape is about .....wealth or success Do you think Saville only abused kids when he became famous?

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship. Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail? But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

No, power and wealth has nothing to do with there deviance's. This is something that was always in them ...lets not blame material things for mental dysfunction One a true hater of women, he used rape to dominant scores but then the great act on the Cosby Show ...man that takes mental strength And one a licentious abuser of young women and older ones The good news in this type of behavior is less and less likely to be accepted nowadays and more likely will be exposed

There is a pretty big line between adultery and assault. You are looking at the act of the man and not the wife's action or their point of view. Man accused of deviance by a horde of women, wife sticks by mans side, and you say "well the deviance of one is worse by letter of the law." Ok, sure, but the parallel is still there between the wives (the two people I was pointing out). They are both wlling to put up with suspect behavior from their husbands. Which is either a weakness of character or a strength of character depending on how you look at it. I view it as weakness, but perhaps both wives are privvy to information that we are not. I find both acts deplorable, and Cosby's is worse by the view of most of the "western world". The level of criminality in their acts through law and/or as viewed by society is irrelevant. What is relevant is how their infidelity is viewed by their wives. Which is an eerily similar situation. The Cosby's have been married since 1964. So, every example of his guilt is also a betrayal of their marriage. Just like with Bill Clinton. However, both wives sticking around is equally stupid to me. It reeks of dependence, but maybe both are in a marriage of convenience over one of love. It could also be that both marriages are more business arrangements. That is something I would possibly believe with the Clintons, but don't know enough to make that assumption of the Cosby's. Ganrich I am not trying to be condescending as I like you but please tell me you havent said what you said above to any women or people who support gender equality? They will think you are utterly sexist or very unaware of something VERY fundamental Cosby raped dozens of women over the decades..he drugged and raped them and he pretended to be a good family man. I repeat he raped and drugged dozens of women....he was and is a sexual predator ....but he was one of the worst as he was able to hide it Bill Clinton had affairs, he had consensual sex with women. He never raped anyone? You must see the huge difference

There is a pretty big line between adultery and assault. Thats just part of it, I have heard what Ganrich said before, I'm not saying he believes but its similar to other personal attacks from Trump. It doesnt have to be true for them, some of his supporters just have to think its sounds feasible But this is what Hilary expected, Trump is predictable like this. What he doesnt realize is Hilary is much better at playing the " old personal attack " game than he could ever conceive. She just basically ignores it ....the perfect response and just makes her look more reasonable yet highlighting how childish and petty Trump comes across

Volo produce links if you want me to review it

If you want to make a factual comparison I promise I would consider it But dude ...come on its got to be reasonable, when people try to compare Bill Clinton to what Cosby did that just smacks of an unfair and irrelevant comparison and really a personal one ...something Trump would say to his supporters who think its great I am sorry if I seem dismissive but Hilary is going to be the next president and I am going to spend as much time as possible challenging some of more absurd attacks on her that often motivated by the fact she is a women

I remember being in love years ago with different women but nowadays I find I like a women, really like them but that is a far as I feel I'm fine with that as its not like I'm not happy but this whole idea of being in love with a single person , its just a fond memory