BruceVC

What part you laughing at, its true what I said

No happiness is a choice if you live in the EU, not that you have done much to assist our EU friends in feeling happy in living the EU In the example of the EU its a unusual construct, someone like Meshugger or Dark may feel the EU needs to change and they say " I'm not happy " ...but they happy they just dont realize how happy they are The EU is exactly what its suppose to be, it wont function without the central government and EU institutions...these are mandatory. So it makes no logical sense to say " we want more sovereignty " ...thats like saying " I want to watch a movie but the screen doesnt work "

Volo!!!! Stop being racist, he was not Latino,yes he was neighborhood watch ...that case was the beginning of the perceived bias society and the courts had towards African Americans. It started here

WOD I dont think Trump is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain strategy He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters Trump never targeted "Latinos", he targeted illegal aliens. What he said it the truth and needed to be said, although he could've been less inflammatory. I've never denied the man has his faults. http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/07/05/200k-criminal-aliens-booked-texas-jails-past-5-years-says-dps/ He's right in not apologizing, once the sharks smell blood, they close in for the kill. If we lived in a more responsible and civil society I'd agree with you. He made some off-color remarks in the past, but most men have. Again, I'm not denying he has faults. The first question Kelly asked at the debate wasn't a question at all, but a vicious attack which no one would be in a position to answer, the equivalent of "When did you stop beating your wife?" Someone had clearly charged her with taking out Trump, and Kelly is insufferably self-righteous and smug. Trump was right to react the way he did, but he shouldn't have obsessed with her so much. Then again it's all part of the show. He was attacked as much as he attacked. He's pretty ruthless in going after what he wants, but that's not necessarily all bad in a president. Don't think so, although a couple of occasions he could've handled better. Yes we do see some things differently around Trump but lets wait till after the election because I have a much more detailed point to raise but only once Hilary wins ...and I wont be gloating but rather discussing some interesting developments I have observed in the USA

Shady does this embarrass you? Now now Bruce, people in glass houses... Oh no the difference is SA is facing real economic and social challenges not some exaggerated police violence perception....I wish that was our only issue I can tell you things that you wont believe but end of the day I see real positive changes in SA so I'm optimistic

Dont misunderstand me I do understand how you view things like freedom of speech, I just dont think its applicable in the SA context ...in fact I know it wont work here So for me what you see as an agenda I see as a valid social issue but now I see your broader point, the president should maintain himself with a certain level of decorum and yes he did make certain comments personal. I have no issue with that but I can see how that might have made people think he was being unpresidential Well foreign policy decisions can be summarized for me as He respected the veto of the UNSC in regards to Syria, we should respect this He refused to agree with Israel and Saudi and just bomb Iran..the negotiations with Iran have worked for the moment The idea that the US has to be seen to be strong by invading a country due to some red line being crossed seems unnecessary considering what a mess the region is Obama has made meaningful foreign policy decisions like using drones and stopping Ebola He pulled the troops out of Iraq He avoided unnecessary confrontation with Russia and unintentionally the Russias have destroyed there own economy ...this is a better lesson for them than some US military rhetoric He has still assisted traditional and real allies like the UK in certain conflicts like Libya So what issues with his foreign policy decisions do you have? For me this whole police violence has been exaggerated on some levels and the media is feeding the hype .....even though they mean well

I hear you, if its any consolation I did refute that point last night I dont like unreasonable or untrue criticism of the West because its then used as an excuse for then not improving our own reality ...so someone may say " well we have corruption but look at the USA and all the racism "

Because now people are saying "as a black person I am scared to go on hoilday to the USA because the Police will kill me " I heard this last night, so people have an inaccurate negative view of the USA

Shady does this embarrass you?

*sigh* whether you believe there is larger problems in the US system o' justice (and trayvon martin is a horrible example for reasons we mentioned elsewhere on these boards... bad bruce,) the shootings in MN and LA do not necessarily represent such problems. to use the incidents in louisiana and minnesota to advance possible unrelated agenda issues is irresponsible at best. be Presidential. am agreeing that there is a problem in the US given the current relationship 'tween law enforcement and citizens... particularly young, black and male citizens. you think obama's recent comments did anything to reduce the tension? regardless, at this point in time, to claim that the videos from louisiana and minnesota were anything other than isolated incidents, and to claim that they is symptomatic o' larger problems facing the justice system is wrong. advance dialogue by advancing the possibly false perception that the recent shootings in louisiana and minnesota were symptomatic? is not necessarily a lie, but is pretty darn close... and is irresponsible given the current racial tensions. we do, as a nation, need more dialogue on the issues o' how police interact with citizens. as leferd mentions elsewhere, the fed is actual taking steps to deal with those issues. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88037-dallas-sniper-shootings/?p=1826545 so why didn't obama do as did leferd? acknowledge that there is a deep perception problem and explain that the Federal government is committed to dealing with the problem through education programs that is already in place. counsel restraint. advise 'gainst premature rushes to judgement. be a President. HA! Good Fun! You dont like Obama much? Thats fine I know we can still have an objective debate on him What possible agenda do you think he is pushing? Maybe I need to understand how you view Obama to see where you coming from on Whats interesting about Obama is this whole " he polarized the USA " is a minor thing compared to how we differ on his foreign policy decisions but only time we prove who is right about that

WOD I dont think Trump is racist or even anti-Latino. He is just very driven in his objectives and doesnt care who gets impacted when he follows a certain strategy He decided on a certain strategy to win the Republican nomination, he completely out manouved the Republican established and won but at what cost. Seriously you cannot ignore the following Latinos have been unfairly targeted, a strange risk to take just to pander to some of his supporters He decided in the beginning of his campaign that PC was wrong and he would never apologize. This whole " I dont apologize " view is actually a much bigger issue than you may realize He then made the egregious mistake of offending the majority of women in the US in various ways, that Megan Kelly interview summarizes this He intentionally brought a level of belligerence and personal attacks on his fellow Republicans and degraded the Republican nomination He did encourage racial divides in the USA because he came across as arrogant and dismissive of anyone who differed with him and seemed to suggest " white supremacy " to me?

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African Americans are treated in US society? Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas ... am not seeing a point. if obama had stayed complete silent on the dallas shootings, particular after seeming to rush to judgement on the earlier shootings in louisiana and minnesota, there woulda' been a p00p storm o' epic proportions. no gold star for obama for the no-brainer. and don't fail for false dichotomy. is not condemn shootings as part o' a symptomatic problem OR ____________. obama can sympathize and advocate restrain while _________. again, fill in the blanks with any number o' responses. is no dichotomy as bruce seems to wanna present. we expect sympathy, but we also expect obama to be Presidential. failure to say anything that mighta' helped prevent ferguson riots were disappointing. drawing conclusions 'bout larger problems related to police practices based on no more than a grainy video o' an armed man being wrestled to the ground and then shot AND video taken AFTER the shooting o' a person pulled over 'cause o' response to a BOLO? sorry, but the commentary at this point is irresponsible. w/o knowing more, to conclude that the recent shootings is symptomatic o' bigger problems for police is just... wrong. be sympathetic. be concerned. but be freaking Presidential. for chrissakes, one reason we dislike trump is 'cause he shoots his mouth off when speaking from a point o' ignorance. obama did the exact same thing you has criticized in trump, yes? HA! Good Fun! Maybe we arent on the same page, we all know there are issues within some sectors of the US police force. You know this, Obama knows this, I know this. Many African Americans from the Trayvon Martin story felt very agitated about how they perceive they were being treated by the Police, so I doubt Obama would have prevented the Ferguson riots or any other for that matter by his words. So for me people have this expectation for how they expect Obama to behave but all he did was recognize an issue that exits in the US society and then say " changes need to be made " ...he didn't vilify or demon the entire Police force in the USA? And I'm sure his overall view on how some African Americans are treated would be based on his own life story and not just some video Unless what he said wasn't true which is a different story

Interesting post , I have a question is Obama not suppose to show any sympathy towards certain police killings? Is he not suppose to get involved on a personal level especially considering the fact most of us acknowledge there are some real inconsistencies about how some African Americans are treated in US society? Also he condemned the Police killings at Dallas

we would say that trump is more symptomatic than. cause. is few, if any, folks who but for trump commentary would be peaceful and productive members o' society. and to be fair, obama handling o' racial tensions in the US is arguably adding as much (and likely more) to the chaos than anything trump says. yeah, we sympathize with obama as there is frequent no right thing to say, but generally when he does speak on racial issues, obama errs and helps further polarize an already concerned public. HA! Good Fun! I I have spent the first few months studying the rise of Trump and only now do I understand most of what he stands for Can you mention some examples where Obama has polarized the USA public by his words, I have often watched his comments on these matters and they seem reasonable ?

I hate Palin, but I'm personally convinced BLM are more agitators than reformers. It's not just the right that's proven to be divisive in our country. I hear you, I just want you guys to be aware that Trump has also contributed towards some of this chaos in the USA He commented today in a serious clip that " he is concerned about racial tensions in the USA "

You raise some good points, to be honest its better to be one or the other because certain fundamental views are necessary to believe one or the other and these things are mutually exclusive But of course there are some similarities Then if I had to chose then I'd be against then.I can stand behind someone calling out injustice and wrong done because of the color of ones skin, but I can't be for a group that isn't treated equally as anyone else (meaning they can do, say, act things that most would lose our lively hood over while no one is batting an eye because of mob screaming racist) and believe and acts like THEY have and had the WORSE outta anyone and everybody. They act and believe they are special snowflakes that it's more important and EVIL and wrong if it happens to them but if it happens to someone else, they are outraged because it's stealing their thunder. Why we let them act and do what they do? Because at the foundation, the BLM is like I said something we can all get behind IF it was just that. When they start demanding and screaming that they have more right and have been wronged more than anyone else in history and it doesn't count if ur history coincides with theirs with slavery and racism, it doesn't matter because it's black power over anything and everything else. Now, I will say this, in light of the Dallas shootings paired with the cop murdering those fellows, the overall mood seems to have changed. The mood feels like they finally accept they are not the only ones who have been wronged and that others have as well and acknowledging that and simply want to be heard as well, if they keep this mood and ideal and atmosphere up, then I can get behind it. Now there seems an air of equality that was massively missing. If they drop this atmosphere and continue like they have been, then no. Burn that banner in fire and start again because all it's doing is causing dividing and more destruction. Tbh it seemed the movement went to wanting special privileges and to be above equal than actually be raised to equality. What you guys are going through now with rationalizing this whole thing and creating opinions I went through about 6 years in SA where only then did I have an epiphany about the history of my country and the true nature of Apartheid It changed me forever but in a good way as I now feel more liberated about my commitment to the new South Africa but I had to learn certain things Anyway I could share them but it gets complicated, so I guess if you looking for a different perspective on BLM but in a more constructive and positive way ask me anytime in the future I've already had my realization. I grew up in a time when ud get ur ass kicked and disowned for being gay, that was very open about their disapproval and agreeing with disowning if u were in a mixed relationship, and that black people were not to be trusted, they were lazy, brought nothing but problems and the only good "*****" was really a dead "*****". I grew up believing the hate and the lies. I know first hand what these people are pissed about because I was the enemy. I may have not murdered or harmed any black person, but I was one of the many these people are angry against. Just to put it out there, I no longer believe those lies or am the "enemy". So I've been on the "giving" end before and now they are using the same tactics that we did to them. Was it right when we did it to them? Hell ****ing no. But here's a question for u Bruce, is it okay for what they are doing the same that we did to them? I'm not talking about burning on crosses, I'm talking about the political environment. You raise some good points, to be honest its better to be one or the other because certain fundamental views are necessary to believe one or the other and these things are mutually exclusive But of course there are some similarities Then if I had to chose then I'd be against then.I can stand behind someone calling out injustice and wrong done because of the color of ones skin, but I can't be for a group that isn't treated equally as anyone else (meaning they can do, say, act things that most would lose our lively hood over while no one is batting an eye because of mob screaming racist) and believe and acts like THEY have and had the WORSE outta anyone and everybody. They act and believe they are special snowflakes that it's more important and EVIL and wrong if it happens to them but if it happens to someone else, they are outraged because it's stealing their thunder. Why we let them act and do what they do? Because at the foundation, the BLM is like I said something we can all get behind IF it was just that. When they start demanding and screaming that they have more right and have been wronged more than anyone else in history and it doesn't count if ur history coincides with theirs with slavery and racism, it doesn't matter because it's black power over anything and everything else. Now, I will say this, in light of the Dallas shootings paired with the cop murdering those fellows, the overall mood seems to have changed. The mood feels like they finally accept they are not the only ones who have been wronged and that others have as well and acknowledging that and simply want to be heard as well, if they keep this mood and ideal and atmosphere up, then I can get behind it. Now there seems an air of equality that was massively missing. If they drop this atmosphere and continue like they have been, then no. Burn that banner in fire and start again because all it's doing is causing dividing and more destruction. Tbh it seemed the movement went to wanting special privileges and to be above equal than actually be raised to equality. What you guys are going through now with rationalizing this whole thing and creating opinions I went through about 6 years in SA where only then did I have an epiphany about the history of my country and the true nature of Apartheid It changed me forever but in a good way as I now feel more liberated about my commitment to the new South Africa but I had to learn certain things Anyway I could share them but it gets complicated, so I guess if you looking for a different perspective on BLM but in a more constructive and positive way ask me anytime in the future I've already had my realization. I grew up in a time when ud get ur ass kicked and disowned for being gay, that was very open about their disapproval and agreeing with disowning if u were in a mixed relationship, and that black people were not to be trusted, they were lazy, brought nothing but problems and the only good "*****" was really a dead "*****". I grew up believing the hate and the lies. I know first hand what these people are pissed about because I was the enemy. I may have not murdered or harmed any black person, but I was one of the many these people are angry against. Just to put it out there, I no longer believe those lies or am the "enemy". So I've been on the "giving" end before and now they are using the same tactics that we did to them. Was it right when we did it to them? Hell ****ing no. But here's a question for u Bruce, is it okay for what they are doing the same that we did to them? I'm not talking about burning on crosses, I'm talking about the political environment. Firstly I didnt realize you had personal experience with bigotry, it does make a difference in this type of debate because you would have more of an understanding on certain issues. Of course that doesnt mean I discount other Americans who had no experience but I generally find most white people have had normal lives ...and there is nothing wrong with that But if you dont mind going into more detail as your personal life story is interesting and I appreciate you sharing. What do you mean "you grew up believing the lies " ....were you a white supremacist? And trust me I doubt there is anything you could have done that is worse than my past and my families history due to Apartheid so no judgement at all

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/08/politics/sarah-palin-black-lives-matter/index.html The irritating and hypocritical words of Sarah Palin, she has the audacity to say "Shame on our culture's influencers who would stir contention and division that could lead to evil such as that in Dallas." Thats rich coming from an avid supporter of Trumps numerous comments that were very racially divisive and intentionally stirred contention

You raise some good points, to be honest its better to be one or the other because certain fundamental views are necessary to believe one or the other and these things are mutually exclusive But of course there are some similarities Then if I had to chose then I'd be against then. I can stand behind someone calling out injustice and wrong done because of the color of ones skin, but I can't be for a group that isn't treated equally as anyone else (meaning they can do, say, act things that most would lose our lively hood over while no one is batting an eye because of mob screaming racist) and believe and acts like THEY have and had the WORSE outta anyone and everybody. They act and believe they are special snowflakes that it's more important and EVIL and wrong if it happens to them but if it happens to someone else, they are outraged because it's stealing their thunder. Why we let them act and do what they do? Because at the foundation, the BLM is like I said something we can all get behind IF it was just that. When they start demanding and screaming that they have more right and have been wronged more than anyone else in history and it doesn't count if ur history coincides with theirs with slavery and racism, it doesn't matter because it's black power over anything and everything else. Now, I will say this, in light of the Dallas shootings paired with the cop murdering those fellows, the overall mood seems to have changed. The mood feels like they finally accept they are not the only ones who have been wronged and that others have as well and acknowledging that and simply want to be heard as well, if they keep this mood and ideal and atmosphere up, then I can get behind it. Now there seems an air of equality that was massively missing. If they drop this atmosphere and continue like they have been, then no. Burn that banner in fire and start again because all it's doing is causing dividing and more destruction. Tbh it seemed the movement went to wanting special privileges and to be above equal than actually be raised to equality. What you guys are going through now with rationalizing this whole thing and creating opinions I went through about 6 years in SA where only then did I have an epiphany about the history of my country and the true nature of Apartheid It changed me forever but in a good way as I now feel more liberated about my commitment to the new South Africa but I had to learn certain things Anyway I could share them but it gets complicated, so I guess if you looking for a different perspective on BLM but in a more constructive and positive way ask me anytime in the future

Also, do you think there's some collective group think where a person is shot and killed, a criminal record a mile long and possibly a child molester, depending on the colour of their skin will determine if there's community outrage or not? If it's a white guy, other white people may declare good riddance, scum, etc. if it's a black guy, then black people will point the finger at the cops with outrage? When I saw the video of the guy selling cd's, that was murder. But if it was a white guy with the same criminal record, would there have been so much outrage by white people? Or would we have seen white people say things like 'no loss'. I think had it been a white guy it wouldn't have even hit the media. But if it did, it would have been like most white killings by police, a combo of decrying the police for overreacting, and a "well, if he didn't have an illegal weapon..."Oerwinde you are deep thinker, you research stuff and I appreciate your perspective on topics even if we differ on some things, i would like to share something with you about this BLM movement This whole BLM is more complex but also more simpler on some levels than it may appear but I would like to ask you an important question, at the end of this current wave of BLM there are two main views (and I mean the people like us who do debate these things )most white people will have You can feel highly annoyed, possibly resentful and concerned about certain societal inconsistencies around the overall behavior of BLM You can be at ease because you understand the greater narrative of a movement like BLM, this doesnt mean you justify bad behavior it just means you have an understanding Which one would you prefer?I don't like BLM. They attack their allies, vandalize, attack charitable events and rallies, and if people don't submit to their bullying and intimidation, try to brand them as racist. They have done more to erode race relations than any other entity since the KKK.I can understand this may be your view, I'm not going to try to change your views as I consider you a reasonable person My view is about an understanding of aspects of history and the current reality of certain social conditions. But please consider this, BLM will be with us forever. Going forward it will become one of the various SJ initiatives we see and people support Dont see this as bad thing, its just a reality. So going forward as BLM gets representation in its own way throughout the world especially in Western Democracies you will be confronted by it....do you really want to constantly think about in the same light as the KKK? Are you saying I should change my view on them because the truth is uncomfortable? Because thats what it sounds like you're saying. These people hijacked a vigil for the victims of the Orlando shooting and tried to make it about race. They shouted racist rhetoric at students studying in a library, they shut down a pride parade until they agreed to expel police floats and make BLM the guests of honor. They attacked a charity fundraiser for sick kids because they wouldn't stop fundraising for sick kids to march with them about diversity in college. They shut down a Bernie Sanders rally, the one candidate arrested for marching for civil rights and who has fought for equality his whole life, because he didn't care enough about black people. If BLM could get away with it, they would be lynching white people. They are a black supremecist group founded because a cop killed a guy who robbed a store and tried to take his gun after assaulting him. If black lives matter, maybe they should focus on why the vast majority of black people are murdered by other black people. Yes and we condemn those types of actions but the group will evolve and distance itself from those actions, its a new movement and emotions are running high so you cant be surprised with a degree of zealotry So I am not asking you to not recognize the truth, I am asking you to see these developments as nuanced and should be seen in context Funny enough thats exactly what I want to avoid, you guys having to deal with another GG but this time its in RL I never knew you followed events like Gay Pride, nice one

Also, do you think there's some collective group think where a person is shot and killed, a criminal record a mile long and possibly a child molester, depending on the colour of their skin will determine if there's community outrage or not? If it's a white guy, other white people may declare good riddance, scum, etc. if it's a black guy, then black people will point the finger at the cops with outrage? When I saw the video of the guy selling cd's, that was murder. But if it was a white guy with the same criminal record, would there have been so much outrage by white people? Or would we have seen white people say things like 'no loss'. I think had it been a white guy it wouldn't have even hit the media. But if it did, it would have been like most white killings by police, a combo of decrying the police for overreacting, and a "well, if he didn't have an illegal weapon..."Oerwinde you are deep thinker, you research stuff and I appreciate your perspective on topics even if we differ on some things, i would like to share something with you about this BLM movement This whole BLM is more complex but also more simpler on some levels than it may appear but I would like to ask you an important question, at the end of this current wave of BLM there are two main views (and I mean the people like us who do debate these things )most white people will have You can feel highly annoyed, possibly resentful and concerned about certain societal inconsistencies around the overall behavior of BLM You can be at ease because you understand the greater narrative of a movement like BLM, this doesnt mean you justify bad behavior it just means you have an understanding Which one would you prefer? I don't like BLM. They attack their allies, vandalize, attack charitable events and rallies, and if people don't submit to their bullying and intimidation, try to brand them as racist. They have done more to erode race relations than any other entity since the KKK. I can understand this may be your view, I'm not going to try to change your views as I consider you a reasonable person My view is about an understanding of aspects of history and the current reality of certain social conditions. But please consider this, BLM will be with us forever. Going forward it will become one of the various SJ initiatives we see and people support Dont see this as bad thing, its just a reality. So going forward as BLM gets representation in its own way throughout the world especially in Western Democracies you will be confronted by it....do you really want to constantly think about in the same light as the KKK?

You raise some good points, to be honest its better to be one or the other because certain fundamental views are necessary to believe one or the other and these things are mutually exclusive But of course there are some similarities

It isn't anything that I haven't heard in past 21 years multiple times, even from people that know better. But it isn't really different from any other political discussion. It isn't optimal but one learns to live with it. Okay the reason is I can dispute some of what people are saying but its not worth doing unless people like you are upset So I wouldn't want you getting negative about the EU just because of some of the comments. But I know you know a lot about the EU so I would assume you wouldnt believe the negative views

Also, do you think there's some collective group think where a person is shot and killed, a criminal record a mile long and possibly a child molester, depending on the colour of their skin will determine if there's community outrage or not? If it's a white guy, other white people may declare good riddance, scum, etc. if it's a black guy, then black people will point the finger at the cops with outrage? When I saw the video of the guy selling cd's, that was murder. But if it was a white guy with the same criminal record, would there have been so much outrage by white people? Or would we have seen white people say things like 'no loss'. I think had it been a white guy it wouldn't have even hit the media. But if it did, it would have been like most white killings by police, a combo of decrying the police for overreacting, and a "well, if he didn't have an illegal weapon..." Oerwinde you are deep thinker, you research stuff and I appreciate your perspective on topics even if we differ on some things, i would like to share something with you about this BLM movement This whole BLM is more complex but also more simpler on some levels than it may appear but I would like to ask you an important question, at the end of this current wave of BLM there are two main views (and I mean the people like us who do debate these things )most white people will have You can feel highly annoyed, possibly resentful and concerned about certain societal inconsistencies around the overall behavior of BLM You can be at ease because you understand the greater narrative of a movement like BLM, this doesnt mean you justify bad behavior it just means you have an understanding Which one would you prefer?

Isn't that pretty much the nature of nation states? Not necessarily; the 19th century situation was quite artificial and the EU is effectively an attempt to go back to an even more extreme version of that situation with one 'empire'. Then, Europe was dominated by large multi ethnic empires held together, ultimately, by threat of force; military force probably does not now apply but there's certainly implied economic... leverage that can be applied. Then, even somewhere like Spain (or the aforementioned France) which had 'natural' borders that had been established, more or less, for 500 years were multiethnic, and an amalgam of even older proto-countries that theoretically at least they could revert to. That's largely not true for France nowadays except for some lingering sentiment in Brittany, but is for Spain. However, if you look at the break ups of the empires after WW1 the countries which ended up stable and surviving long term where the ones which formed 'spontaneously' via popular sentiment and which were 'historical' entities. Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia (~Bohemia) and to an extent Finland all had long term identities prior to ending up in their respective empires. Same for the organic part of the Ottoman break up too, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece and Romania (via Wlach/ Moldova) all had long term identities. The 'non organic' approach is always fraught with danger, as with the non organic/ imposed parts of the breaks ups of the Austro Hungarian and Ottoman empires. From that you got Yugoslavia on one hand and that cretinous artificial arbitrary mess in the middle east that still causes so much trouble on the other. That's why an imposed EU is not just a bad idea but verges on being outright dangerous. If it's going to be done it has to be done via genuine popular approval rather than just acclamation from the political elite. Otherwise it risks springing apart, and potentially springing apart violently. If use of violence to ensure formation of nation state prevents it being organic evolution then most of European nation states didn't born organically. Finland isn't really a nation state, because we are federacy of multiple nations. Elerond can I ask you two questions What laws and control exactly would you have restored to the Finnish government, you guys keep saying you have lost sovereignty so what specifically do you mean? Who are these " elites " people keep referring to...where do they live ? You ask me question that I don't know answers. You probably should aim them towards those who make those claims. Elerond on this thread there is a fair amount about of negative and incorrect information about the EU, you not getting concerned or a little depressed by the comments are you?

I was watching this earlier, it is more complex than it may appear so they need to investigate So I will say this guy was suffering from some form of PTSD, he couldn't differentiate a societal problem from some apparent orchestrated campaign that the police are actively pursing, so in other words he believed the latter