Not So Clever Hound

Only Sith deal in absolute. I appreciate that your argument (all in or all out) may simplify the debate but I still think that the question a bit more nuanced than that when you consider the diversity of mechanics that can be considered exploits - and their varying degrees of impact on gameplay. I think that if I go down the "all in or all out" route I'll always find something to give me pause. For example, not resting to accumulate certain buffs - is it an exploit? I don't think it's obvious either way (not talking about stacking food buffs here which is more clear cut). That wasn't my point but I can see how the way I wrote it implied that, which is indeed not a good argument - so thank you for pointing it out . I was just putting infinite DoTs vs. WotW with ranged weapons in perspective to support my main point that the line between exploit and "as intended" mechanic is blurry at best and probably quite subjective. Which as you also wrote yesterday, is totally fine because this is a single player game!

I know your comment is addressed to @Boeroer but if I may, personally this is where I really struggle to draw any kind of line: Should you put in the same bucket something that improves QoL or gives a marginal power boost vs. something that makes you totally untouchable? Hiding out of sight while dealing damage can be considered an exploit, but it does make some sense (mortally wounding an enemy and waiting it out - it exists in real life). Whispers of the Wind using dual single-shot firearms isn't considered an exploit, but this combo makes zero logical sense. At the end the only line I can confidently draw for myself is: using something that removes the challenge altogether isn't fun on the long run so I try to avoid it. But I'm not against occasionally recharging a necklace of fireballs.

I would stick to Veteran for the first playthrough. Running a first playthough on PotD is totally doable but you have to really like trial & error and ideally have already a strong experience of Unity/PoE combat. That said, PotD in Deadfire is noticeably easier than PotD in the first PoE!

Obsidian should introduce a Schizophrenic Challenge: players have to run 2 concurrent, 100% completionist playthroughs at the same time: 1) Ultimate Solo Naked Wizard Slayer, no Strand of Favor shenanigans allowed. 2) Story Mode, team of 6 Assassins with permanent Vanishing Strike, Brilliant and 300% Deltro's Helm Lash. The game randomly switches back and forth between the 2 saves without warning. The first person to complete it and not end up in the emergency room of the nearest psychiatric ward can get to decide forever and for everyone what is acceptable cheese and what is unacceptable cheat.

I was mostly bouncing off of the point that Kaylon's made a couple posts above: "I understand your way of thinking, however by Obsidian rules not only it's not cheating but it's even considered to be "in the spirit of the game" (since those methods are the foundation of all the "ultimate" runs). In other words, if the game allows it, there's no cheating and you can't blame the others for using it..." I have no good answer to your questions though. My main point is still that apart from very specific situations it ultimately isn't very fun to use because it makes many other important features of the game irrelevant.

Strand of Favor is an unexpected effect that is nevertheless deliberately allowed by Devs. For the players who want to get the hardest achievements in the game, it unlocks interesting possibilities, otherwise they have to stick to a handful of builds. For everyone else, it turns Deadfire into a Point and Click. And Deadfire is not a very interesting point and click .

We are clearly in a Grey area of Cheese. This one is delicious with Savennières white wine.

Amen! BTW Citzal's Martial Power will also help land Clear Out which indeed targets Fortitude and which is usually the highest defense (but it also depends on the difficulty you play on).

Sounds good. Of note, this build will work very well with either of the 2H Axes that you can find in the game, which I understand is what you want to focus on for thematic fit. I prefer Amra over Oathbreaker's End because of its enchantments and especially because it is available super early. That being said, if you have a bit more flex on your weapon of choice and if you want an optimal build, you might consider Devoted to Pike and use Citzal's Spirit Lance, which in combination with Clear Out is... one of the strongest melee combos you can possibly create in the game. Just sayin'

Agree with @Haplok. I'd say personally Bloodmage/Devoted with the 2H Axe Amra is your best bet for balance between theme and OP-ness. Couple highlights: Early on you should use your fists (monastic unarmed training) which also benefit from Devoted. Then Amra is fantastic, you will spam Clear Out as primary attack. You should also use Concelhaut Draining Touch for flavor. Even better, apparently if you don't learn it, cast it from a grimoire then switch to another grimoire, it will go on for the whole duration of combat. That plus the occasional Death Ring, Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst and other similar spells = great offense. Defensively you will use all the buffs of the wizard, your passive healing. Unbending Trunk + Wall of Draining at high level = near God Mode. Why not throw in Refreshing Defenses as well. You will use Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage and Enervating Terror among other key Wizard debuffs, which will fit very well thematically and will shut down enemies that are not immune to RES afflictions. You may equip Blackened Plate + Helm for fitting style (ok with Armored Grace and high DEX and stacking AR) or Devil of Caroc + Helm of Falcon for optimal gear + more shiny style . You are half Bloodmage so you can still do whatever you want in the game if needed. Grimoire wise I'm not too sure, you have a lot of great options: Ninagauth Teachings and Martial Masteries might be the best ones but not sure with this specific build. EDIT: my advice is only sound for RtwP, I haven't played Turn-based.

I would argue that being able to completely disregard things like Arcane Dampener/Cleanse puts Vanishing Strike in a different league, but fair enough!

@Kaylon this is very well put, thanks. If I may, I'd be curious then to understand your POV on Vanishing Strike + Strand of Favor? Based on my (limited) experience, it is in a different category altogether than any other buff you can prolong with SoF because it grants complete and permanent invincibility that cannot be broken whatsoever. Outside of Ultimate runs, doesn't it make SC Rogue and in particular SC Assassin the absolute most powerful class in the game if you are willing to abuse SoF, to the point that any other class becomes basically irrelevant? In this case, doesn't it create a fundamental imbalance? EDIT: to make sure my point is clear, I'll rephrase slightly: you can build some consensus around the fact that using or not SoF is a matter of preference, and that generally using SoF makes everything OP. BUT, SoF + Vanishing Strike is in a different league altogether and puts SC Rogue far above any other class. Should we be cool with that?

Personal and humble opinion: I don't think it's as much about "cheating" (those aren't cheats as much as loopholes that devs know about but haven't corrected after many opportunities to do so, and that are necessary to complete certain crazy game challenges) as it is about whether you want to play within generally accepted boundaries of the game or not. Ultimately this all comes down to personal preference, and to what people consider acceptable cheese, cheesy cheese, cheaty cheese... 50 Shades of Cheese. However one thing is for sure, at least to me: outside of Ultimate runs, using Strand of Favor to indefinitely prolong Brilliant, BDD, Vanishing Strike, Deltro's Lash etc is a bit like going down a rabbit hole that makes everything else irrelevant and as such, somewhat ruins the game. What is the point of doing anything in the game if you can extend Vanishing Strike to infinity? You will just walk around and destroy everything in the game without ever being in danger. It's probably necessary for Ultimate, but to be avoided in "normal" gameplay if you want to be compelled to actually use class abilities and a modicum of strategy. But it's still fun to try once though

Those spells only truly differ by the number of spell levels absorbed, and they're not additive (but you can refresh them). A fully buffed SC wizard can definitely be very tanky and keep his buffs for a long time with high INT, by starting the buff cycle with Infuse with Vital Essence (buff INT) and of course after level 13 with Wall of Draining. Considering this and your question, you can get more mileage from more spell levels to absorb but in practice I usually settle with the lvl 6 spell (std Arcane Reflection). Other lvl 9 spells are too valuable! Be mindful that it is ONLY useful with direct-targeting spells and NOT with AoE spells like Arcane Dampener. So in practice, your best defense against spells is to boost your defenses (DEF, FOR, REF, WIL) and debuff enemies ACC (Chill Fog!). I like Arcane Reflection though to reflect my most hated spell in the game i.e. Form of the Helpless Beast.

If you'd like a recent Solo PotD SC Wizard build, you can check out the below Bloodmage build on this forum. I made it in the latest version of the game with all DLCs. It did not rely upon Brilliant or Strand of Favor but you do need Bloodmage, deflection and other defenses stacking, some Wall of Draining and the very (very) occasional Potion of Barrier Death Door / Lover's Embrace to solo a few of the hardest encounters of the DLCs and Megabosses. But I solo'ed every piece of content the game has to offer without hickups or extensive cheese besides what I mentioned above. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/120463-class-build-updated-the-bleeding-arcanist-20/ EDIT: I forgot to mention the obvious I did have a lot of fun with it and I humbly recommend it for inspiration if you'd like to return to the game with this kind of playstyle!

Boeroer's reco is of course super solid, promises fun gameplay and is grounded in a ton of in-game experience, I won't argue with that. Since the OP mentioned Solo upscaled PotD, I would personally argue that sword and broad is a potentially safer/more consistent strategy here to maximize defenses and get the most of their increasing returns while still dishing out nice DMG. Lethandria's Devotion + Griffin's Blade, all the good Paladin passive stuff, all the good Bloodmage buffs, some good gear to pump important defenses. Vaporous Grimoire + Rekvu's Fractured Casque and all the good Wizard offensive spells suitable for a static/stand-your-ground strategy. Eternal Devotion opener for the nice lasting lash and Brand Enemy to crack the occasional hard nut. You're all set! EDIT: also if you care about RP and just in case you want more flex in your dispositions, you can choose whichever paladin order you like with this option.

Assassin/Vanilla Cipher is very powerful if you fancy a firearm user. Most of the combinations you mentioned are very powerful for different reasons, this one gets a special mention for very high one-shot potential from day 1 until the end, and for possibly the easiest/fastest time against Hauani o Whe if you want to take the Mega Bosses. If you want to see how to build around it, I made this guide. Happy Hunting!

I also experienced that: I wanted to go to Ashen's Maw super early to grab Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak before doing Hasongo, but that advanced the main storyline automatically skipping the whole Hasongo thing (i.e. when you arrive at Ashen's Maw even before Hasongo you can see Eothas in the background and if you go far enough in Ashen's Maw you can't go back the way you came, you have to go talk to Eothas). So it's better to rush Hasongo (e.g. with Stealth) and get the bonuses there, then Ashen's Maw if you want to get Ajamuut early.

Thanks a lot for pointing it out! I guess I didn't look hard enough and thanks also for taking the time to dig up the video. I've edited the OP accordingly.

Hi everyone, EDIT: As @Raven Darkholme pointed out, @Waski discovered this trick some time ago for an Ultimate run. I still think it deserves a separate thread for how ridiculously powerful it is! In case you like to try out and understand the many cheesy mechanics that can be created in Deadfire, well in my humble opinion this is the apex of non-pasteurized cheese. This is the most runny, methuselah Camembert mixed with an elder Roquefort that can melt steel beams (...) and topped with a Munster that would resurrect all of Engwith just with its smell. In comparison, "cannot-die" effects in Deadfire are like string cheese, or Babybel. In short, we all know that normal Vanishing Strike gives you brief but absolute invisibility. It doesn't break if you hit, kill an enemy or do anything else. It just goes on until the duration is up, making you untargetable by anyone and therefore granting you total invulnerability. As such, of course any attack made under Vanishing Strike automatically qualifies for Assassinate, Sneak Attack and Backstab bonuses. Now it is well-known thanks to many contributors on this forum that the "increase beneficial effect duration" effect of Strand of Favor or Cabalist's Gambeson can be cheesed to increase certain status effects' duration forever by equipping/unequipping the item repeatedly. Well friends, it also works with Vanishing Strike.... As far as absolute cheeze, I think this puts SC Assassin far beyond any other class in a non-Ultimate run. I was planning to detail the full build concept (for IE games aficionados, I have called this toon Arkanis Gath ) by also including the most powerful Deltro's Cage Helm lash possible and a permanent Brilliant inspiration through Wit of Death Herald with the right choices in the 3 God discussions. Thus creating an invulnerable, one-shotting toon that regenerates resources until the end of Eora as we know it. But to be honest it all starts and ends with permanent Vanishing Strike... nothing else can really compare. Absolute, unbreakable, permanent invisibility that makes you untargetable by anything and anyone, and also gives you permanent Sneak Attack, Assassinate and Backstab. That's it! Of course this also makes the game incredibly boring on the long run because there won't be any challenge whatsoever, apart maybe from getting the right items/scrolls and abilities to destroy Hauani O Whe before it merges again and again and again. But it is definitely doable and probably quite easily with Arcana. I haven't tested every situation in a full playthrough but as far as I've seen all the scripted interactions will still happen without problem. HOW IT WORKS: Create an SC Assassin. Nothing in your choices really matters . Do whatever to get to level 19. Get the Strand of Favor or Cabalist Gambeson item(s). Hit something with Vanishing Strike outside of combat (a totem or a barrel will do). Equip/Unequip the aforementioned item(s) to increase duration at will, unlimitedly. Enjoy complete and permanent invulnerability. Of note, it also makes you untargetable by allies/own attacks so plan carefully if you want to target yourself with Chain Lightning or the Essence Interrupter for a permanent and unnecessary Deltro's Lash. Thanks for reading, and here's to hoping that it cures me from wanting to use all the cheese in the Deadfire!

Yep, Gouging Strike / Brand Enemy / True Lover's Kiss are the three DoTs that to my knowledge are applied until combat ends, in the most literal sense. It is one of many reliable sources of cheese in the game to effortlessly solo otherwise very challenging encounters. Being able to break engagement and move to safety with some form of invisibility is another key component of this cheezy strategy. As you can see, Rogues have it all.

Well if we're on this topic, how is Gouging Strike effective on targets that do not have anything to gouge? And how do you make a skeleton bleed to death with an Arterial Strike? Answer: if you coat your blade with a slice of camembert or any other non-pasteurized cheeze.

Assuming you're looking for party based, all SC classes are viable as Main Character. Furyshaper, Fury, Bloodmage, any Monk, all rise to the top IMO. Maybe Shifter but I don't know enough about it and it depends much on your mods loadout.

I see. you might want to put a bit of white hair on your trademark Boeroer icon then... or are you in denial? Thanks for your thoughts, I'll try to tame my search for powa! in favor of style and fun. Or ideally, all 3.

@Boeroer Thanks for indulging me, as always your points are crystal-clear and anyone can tell from your posts that you value creativity and fun playstyle over plain OP-ness. I'm not sure that the rope is as "thick" or clearly defined as you state though. My problem is that once I've found a foolproof, superior solution to a challenge, it's very hard to ignore it and go on about my business, back to sub-par solutions in the name of balance or fun. The superior yet cheezy/loophole-ish solution will always lurk in the back of my head . Let me illustrate a bit more: as a solo Sorcerer in Infinity Engine games I always loved the Chain Contingency - Abi Dalzim trick because it's insanely powerful... It is in the game even if a little too OP, everyone had decades to correct it but didn't, and it is a very fun combo to use. Now I try to avoid using Sunfire + Invisibility in vanilla because even if it's allowed in the game (Sunfire doesn't break basic invisibility in vanilla), it's too powerful. But still, sometimes I do indulge in it because it is there! It's not like I'm breaking the game and using the console. I'm just playing the game within its parameters. So in a game like PoE2, where after many versions of the game and all the telemetry/nerf-batting there could be, you have a Strand of Favor and Deltro's Helm effect combo that can quadruple your damage output forever just like that. How do you not just use it all the time. You have a strong soul but I struggle!