Nightshape

So is UW1 & UW2, those games using that engine are the true groundbreaking classics of the early nineties... Well along with Doom and Wolfenstien, but UW & SS used a much superior engine.

What's your basis for this? Because that's pretty much what game designers do, if we are to say boil it down to a finite solution. Game desigers design gameplay mechanics, flow etc... Artists deal with artwork, now it would be fair to say that a game designer has an idea of how things should look and work with the artists to achieve it, but genuinely inconsistant artwork is actually on the shoulders of the art director, and not a design flaw. It's bad art, and that appears to be a different question to me. My experience tells me that there is a difference. I was under the impression that this thread was dealing with game design flaws, bad artwork is not bad game design anymore than good artwork is good games design. edit: Blizzard are a special case in that they're able to spend as much time as required to, "Get it right", where your average developer doesn't have the option to do that, they're instead stuck with milestones and deadlines where the publisher lays down the rules. If the publisher aims to shift 500,000 units they tend to invest to those numbers. Most game design annoyances are like stability annoyances and down to the fact that basically a company works within time constraints.

If the art isn't consistent that's not a design flaw, it's an art direction flaw... Different department.Art should be designed to be consistent, otherwise it's badly designed. I don't care what part of a game development company is responsible for it What do you mean by that? Me Enghlish skillz r 2 low Aye but the thread is called "Cardinal sins of game design", and I don't see bad art as bad game design, as game design concerns itself mostly with gameplay mechanics. It's like saying terrible audio is bad game design, or a bug is bad game design they're a seperate complaint. Artwork should be consistant but that complaint belongs in a seperate thread and that was all I was pointing out. "Cardinal sins of game art" for example.

If the art isn't consistent that's not a design flaw, it's an art direction flaw... Different department.

"We paid alot to develop that cutscene, you ungreatful sods will watching and you WILL enjoy it every time damnit!" - Some developer.

It helps developers appear to have more Game play than they do... Checkpoints can be place so far back purely for that reason alone. While I agree with what you're saying, I can tell you this much, it's not going to go anywhere, it's the developers cheapest tool to make a game seem longer than it is, and if development goes wrong and the product seems a little skinny, such cheesey options appear viable.

++Postcount; // Quicker

DC > PS2 on everything bar sales.

sounds lame then *grabs popcorn and waits* LOLZ. Total lamage Morrowind with guns? NO no no, POR2 with guns

2D, 3D most pointless argument in existance...

*shruggs* I never knew... But sales don't incur that everyone liked the game.

I wasn't aware Gothic had a huge fanbase... ?

erm, no it's not like buying a car, it's like buying something for your car. If I was to get a new exaust system, I wouldn't be competant to fit it.

... Cyber Rapist...

The Dev kit is also HUGE! And Expensive. It's larger than the desktops of old, and it has beepy buttons, and looks like some retarded 8 track player...

Well the American and European customer base are very very different beasts. But Morgoth isn't American, and neither am I. So I believe it's fair to say that Gothic is a extremely niche game. I wouldn't say it's widely hated, its no POR 2. I also wouldn't even say it was a cult classic. Average... That's an accurate description. Now that said, you'll always get a random enthusiatic fan, I really like Arx Fatalis for example.

I must admit, I was indeed suffering from some kinda confusion.

So you're technically incompetent?

Viking : Battle For Asgard.

Ah you read some of Mkreku's posts, they're certainly misleading.

You can argue the toss from many perspectives, companies often licence engines because engine maintainance is seperate task to engine use. You also have to bare in mind the level of documentation coupled with an engine. Developing a game engine and game along side each other genuinely can lead to problems, the engine technology needs to be ahead of the rest of the team. When an engine is licenced it's usually comes with alot of documentation, it's easier to use someone else's technology, atleast initially it is, over a time period it actually makes more sense to develop in house technology. ToEE is alot more ambitious than IWD. IWD isn't all that far from a professionally produce mod for baldurs gate, that's not to balk at the results, and it is more than a mere mod as it did feature engine improvements, but at it's core like alot of games they're existing on a level equivilent to mods, the extremities of which can be debated. *chuckle* am understanding your pov, but you might wanna direct this to the obsidian developers rather than make as a reply to Gromnir. having no personal experience in such things we tends to defer to experts in the field... and at least one obsidian expert disagrees with you. HA! Good Fun! *shruggs* its a tricky topic.

Fallout with swords, Oblivion with guns what's the difference? I'm trying to deduce the comments origin.

You can argue the toss from many perspectives, companies often licence engines because engine maintainance is seperate task to engine use. You also have to bare in mind the level of documentation coupled with an engine. Developing a game engine and game along side each other genuinely can lead to problems, the engine technology needs to be ahead of the rest of the team. When an engine is licenced it's usually comes with alot of documentation, it's easier to use someone else's technology, atleast initially it is, over a time period it actually makes more sense to develop in house technology. ToEE is alot more ambitious than IWD. IWD isn't all that far from a professionally produce mod for baldurs gate, that's not to balk at the results, and it is more than a mere mod as it did feature engine improvements, but at it's core like alot of games they're existing on a level equivilent to mods, the extremities of which can be debated.

Because engine development takes time, and is a different process fundementally as building an engine results in what could only be refered to as nothing at all in relation to gameplay.

Not even comparative really... Different requirements from the development cycle.