StillLife

Chosen One seems to fall into two categories for people: 1) You're the central character tasked with some epic quest to save the world/galaxy. 2) Your character has some sort of divine relation and an epic destiny as a result of that relation. That really just qualifies as the archetypal hero though, in the Greek sense. That said, NWN2 doesn't seem to be tied to either of those routes from what is known yet. It could very well be that you have to save the world at some point, or you could just be a random shmuck caught up in something messy that you need to solve in order to have some peace. In my opinion, The Nameless One, The Vault Dweller, The Guy(from Gothic), your character in Divine Divinity, NeverWinter Nights, and VTM: Bloodlines are all examples of games where you were not a Chosen One. KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Baldurs Gate, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 2 were examples of game's where the protagonist qualified for Chosen One status in my book. It's kind of cliche, but some people seem to at least on a subconcious level, require their character to have some epic sense of purpose in CRPGs. Spoiler: Take the ending of Bloodlines for example, where it turned out you were really just some naive fledgling caught up in a political struggle, not really the savior of the world or even a part of something of epic proportions. That revelation seemed to really irk a lot of people, though I thought it was a very refreshing conclusion.

Last years E3 seemed pretty terrible to me.

I saw them selling in Wal-Mart a couple years ago -- the little budget, double pack thing that is -- for $5. Wish I would've thought to snatch them up and sell them on E-bay. Heck, I shoulda bought one, period. I only own the Mac version of Fallout. BTW, you're not being a little bitch. Those games had the best manuals I've ever seen, they're definitely a valuable part of the Fallout package.

Not necessarily the same morality, but the circumstances aren't that different. I'm not passing judgement, just stating what should be obvious but doesn't seem to be to too many people. Of course it doesn't, and a short game doesn't equal to higher quality either. Stop being ridiculous Alan. I didn't suggest people buy game's just because they're long. There's no need to make excuses for a game being short though. You're assuming too much. What I wrote wasn't specifically directed at Obsidian. I already mentioned in the other thread that with the multiplayer features NWN2 is toting, they can probably skate by on a 20 hour single-player campaign, if those modding/multiplayer features are appealing to you. They also get a pass from me for being a relatively new company that's trying to build some capital. However, I wouldn't make public excuses or try to dismiss other people's concerns for the game being that short, as the reality is, it's not really in my, or other gamers best interests to have shorter games. I personally still won't be spending $50 on it though. There you go assuming again. Take a look at BioWare for a moment. They started out making long games, then has they've gone along becoming more financially successful, they've gotten shorter and shorter. It's foolish to assume that a company will invest money they don't have to out of the goodness of their hearts, when they realize they can get away with cutting corners. There's not an ultimatum for developers between making shorter games and increasing the prices of a game currently if they wish to survive. Sorry, but I'm not buying that excuse. That's because you have seem to have an agenda that doesn't fall in line with what's best for the consumer. Why does a game have to include mindless filler to avoid being short? Who's to say the same amount of fluff wouldn't be applied to a small game too? If you let developers/publishers get away with pulling crap like shoving a bunch of fluff in their games, they'll continue to do so regardless of the game's overall length. Ahhh, you're an example of the kind of person I mentioned in that speed run thread about Fallout. Don't use speed runs as an example of a games intended length, please. You know as well as I do that most people wouldn't complete Fallout in a single sitting, nor MGS or RE2 - which were among my favorite PS games. Lose the snide attitude. People will always have their own take on something, that goes without saying. But in the case of this discussion? Anyone who disagrees that game's shouldn't be short is probably basing their arguments off an irrational bias. Just to clarify, I'm not claiming people shoudln't buy games just because they're short. Sometimes you have to weigh what's more important to you in a situation. There aren't a lot of developers even making CRPGs these days, so the fact Obsidian is, might override the potentially questionable aspects of their games for some people and warrant a purchase. Nothing wrong with that, but don't make excuses for them or pretend it's okay when they do cut corners and expect anyone with a bit of sense to take you seriously.

I just thought Horrigan was the out of control muscle - the last roadblock to the resolution. The climax for me -- and the true ultimate encounter in the game -- was the revelation that the government had still been hanging on and the man who was responsible for the Enclave's madness was standing before you. Then the satisfaction of blasting his cold, inhumane ass to pieces and effectively destroying all that the Enclave was.

Amen. If more people took that attitude concerning the things they purchase and insisted that the expectations of quality and value they had for a product be met, services and goods would be so much damn better and worth every penny of their price. Instead you get: "Oh, you're not buying their stuff won't do anything." "Bugs/glitches/exploits in PC games aren't so bad, I'm sure they'll release a patch/moders will fix it." "There's nothing wrong with [insert questionable practice here], companies are in the business of making money after all." "I don't mind games getting shorter as long as they're good." I don't understand why people defend business practices that negatively impact consumers and possibly the entire industry, unless they work for said company. If you are merely a consumer in an issue - then act like one. Don't let your expectations(within reason of course) diminish simply because you realize it's not as profitable for a business to meet them. For the love of all that's holy, don't attempt to dismiss someone who is disatisfied(again within reason) and vocalizes their problems with a business practice/precedent. Adopting that position more often than not harms you. The business in question most likely isn't going to send you a care package for defending and providing excuses for them, or even remember you as anything other than that complacent chump(fanboy) that encourages them to cut corners. There shouldn't really be anyone in this, or the last thread expressing that it's okay for games to be short(er). Unless of course you work for Atari/Obisidain, or have ADD - which doesn't appear to be the case with most of the posters on this board. Good games can be short or long. I'd rather have a good, long game, than a short one. Laying your money on the table to buy something is always a vote. Sometimes it's good to refrain from voting on things you know might lead to inevitably bad things for you or whatever it is you enjoy. Let a companie's PR/marketing department handle the positive spin...unlike you, they get paid for it.

Main enemies shouldn't always be God-like in their resilience. A villain like Lord Soth? Definitely. He was a bad ass Knight of Solamnia as a human, then got all sorts of super powers to go along with that upon his undeath. The nefarious mage leader of a cult, for example should only be powerful as an ordinary mage of an appropriate level though. Primary antagonists don't always need to be artificially tough for the protagonists to enjoy bringing them down. I don't think I enjoyed taking out any villain in Fallout 2 for example, as much as the president and he was a **** - like an old guy with a twisted world-view in a suit should be. It would have been horrifyingly cheesey if he had put up much of a fight. But he was still pretty much the mastermind behind the Enclave.

He provided reasons though, with that in mind, it could hardly be considered "just for the sake of it". He's certainly gone overboard sometimes, like claiming to protest Obsidian for making BioWare hand-me-downs a while back ago, but Vis/Hades has been maintaing that stance about EA for a long time now from what I recall. Even if he's just trying to be difficult again, putting the idea out there with the often insane frequency he does might keep people more aware. Sometimes, you have to look a little further down the road. Sure it could be a good game, but if it's sales aid and further enable a company that has done bad things for the industry and consumers, then it's ultimately not a good idea to buy their products. My personal opinion of course, wouldn't expect everyone to accept that stance. Oh, it definitely has something to do with consumer feedback too. Often stories reach and generate interest with the mainstream press by outraged consumers. More vocal gamers like the PennyArcade guy's raised a fuss over that situation on their site. Bad publicity is bad publicity. I don't mean this directed at you specifically alan, but I have noticed this disturbing trend from people these days, where you're treated almost as a fool for trying to not let corporations walk all over you. Kinda disturbing. History has proven that personal boycotts work, raising a fuss works - regardless of how small of an impact it has, it's far more effective than doing nothing. I was raised with many a boycott - they do work.

The only problem I have with these speed run videos is when some kook decides to try and use them as evidence of a game's shortcomings. "Fallout could easily be beat in 9 minutes, I'd hardly call a game that short 'complex'."

Very true.

The shortness of game trend is the fault of consoles. Made ideally for kids with low attention spans, who have no desire to take all kinds of quests, or explore the story. Hey lets just make it hack n slash. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The majority of console gamers are adults. Besides, if it's just hack and slash then that's exactly what you're looking for in a game. You have said so yourself. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In their defense, most of the games I never managed to beat or that took me months to get through were old console games. Granted, most of that was because there were generally no saves or codes in them so when you died, you had to start over. If anything, I didn't notice games getting shorter until I started primarily playing games on a PC. I blame the focus of PC developers on shoving out expansions and cheaply made sequels when they should have just focused on making the original game more thorough.

Yikes, this thread was like 8 pages long last night. You people are crazy. 20 hours is ok for a game that has fancy mod tools as one of its main features, except for someone like me who realized that NWN mods were generally pretty terrible. Wading through professional fantasy cheese is bad enough, playing through little Billy the fifteen year-old's epic fantasy vision of continuous, mass goblin slaying is even worse. As with the original NWN, NWN2 sounds like it will be a bargain bin buy, baby. Unless it gets rave reviews from people who appear to have some objectivity.

Hades is smart for having convictions and trying to stand by them, as well as acknowledging them in public. If more people did that rather than jumping at the opportunity to fling some cash out of their wallet when the newest piece of crap comes down the pipeline, games would be a hell of a lot better than they are now. Get off his back. If you need a recent example of how actually being a bit discerning and exercising some self-restraint in your purchases can help the industry, just look at Ubisoft's recent decision to stop using StarForce in their games.

Ok, I'm going to have to join Hades in the "no longer supporting EA" camp. As if there weren't enough reasons already... Anyway, if you look around the development team for that game, it goes from an eclectic mix of Americans in some departments, to all Asian folks, which struck me as odd. So after a brief look on Google, apparently EA has decided to outsource large portions of their development jobs to China, after there was that fuss about harsh labor conditions from their American employees last year or whenever it was. What a bunch of perversely greedy bastards.

Sounds kinda like ShadowRun, or at least that was sort of the the premise of the one for the Super NES long ago, not sure it was a standard in the campaign setting. I'd love to see something set in modernish times. Anything other than medieval fantasy would be good in my book though. Unfortunately, there are too many lame people who don't buy non-fantasy CRPGs. Think about all the CRPGs with non-fantasy settings that have failed to make a significant financial impact. If I were a developer looking to make some money, I wouldn't touch a non-fantasy setting with a ten-foot pole. "WTF do you mean 'there's no elves'?!"

This game was only announced what, like two-three years ago? The announcement probably was way too early, but perhaps they were trying to strike while the iron -- or in this case, the Aurora engine -- was hot, and draw some interest from NWN fans and maybe a publisher? Earlier when it was announced, I read quite a bit about it and it struck me as little more than a professional Diablo Clone/NWN mod based on a fiction novel. After this recent interview, it sounds like they've actually tried to put a fair amount of depth and complexity into it. Sounds like solid progress to me. Even if it is coming along slower than it should, I'd think that could be an equally good or bad sign. I'm personally always much more wary of games that have short development cycles *cough*Obsidian Isle*cough*, than long one's, as rushed games usually leave something to be desired in one area too many. Fargo from Gamespy made a comment about the game recently on the forums there: Sounds kinda cool to me. Yep, I was one of them.

Oh c'mon, generalizations are silly. The Gothic series is great, and Pirhanha Bytes just so happens to be German. Lots of crappy game ideas come out of English speaking countries too. Anyway, why are so many of the folks here so dismissive of this game? I swear, it's no wonder PC games in this genre are friggin rare, CRPG fans are absurdly snobbish towards anything that doesn't have a lot of hype or a huge license. Bah!

Character creation doesn't matter if you can't actually define the personality of your character in a game anyway(Oblivion). Being able to do that is the important part, doesn't matter if the avatar is visually pre-defined. The Witcher sounds somewhat interesting, even though the Aurora engine makes me gag. Hopefully what they've said about almost completely reworking it is true. It certainly sounds more interesting to me then EverBoring Nights 2.

One word: Disney. I love pirates as much as the next guy, but I don't know if I could handle it. Pirates were often mean, drunken bastards. Then again I played Puzzle Pirates(MMOG) for like sixth months and game's don't get much more cute than that one, other than the fact rum was like player fuel. It would be hard to top its sheer, lego piratey, brilliance though. Must not forget the upcoming Pirates of the Burning Sea too. I'm sure Flying Lab was thrilled a little company like Disney is fixing to compete with them.

I must have been oblivious to the release of the third one, I didn't follow games much back then aside from looking on store shelves. Hmm, now I'm finally tempted to get a PS2 for the new one though.

Oh, I've never even heard of those. Are they on the PS2 or something? The second one is very good, quite a bit more emphasis on story and your character, plus all the good parts of the original are there but better.

Because Bethesda have done a piss poor job in marketing it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's kind of a shame too. A crazy person like myself might think with the way they released it right near Oblivion and didn't market it at all that they wanted it to fail.

Ohhh, I always loved that series. I don't know what's with me and having great affection for games where you go around trapping and torturing heroic people(DK 2 is in my top five favorites), but I do. Must be a bit of a closet sadist. Have you played the second one too Darque? Still playing Oblivion myself.

I'm a Lovecraft fiend so I'll certainly be picking it up when I get bored of Oblivion. Shame the developer died, though like Eldar mentioned, I won't feel bad about not having bought it early if it is good .

Easy choice since it's still my favorite game evar: Fallout 2.