Ben No.3

As individuals we strive to be different, often conflicting things. Which is exactly why it is so important to have a dialogue. A society that only follows a single ideology always fails, this much history has shown us. We need many different ideologies and standpoints to sustain our own society. Conflicting views are the solution not the problem.

As all leftists you hamfist a wrong definition of something and try to make an argument based on that definition. And this kind of argument doesn't fly anymore, so I disregard all your false hamfisted definitions. Then show me why I'm wrong. If anything, the past elections have shown us we need the dialogue, the discussion and the debate. I have a standpoint and I'm willing to defend it, but I will know when I'm beaten. But up until now you offer nothing useful. You think I'm wrong? Good, then tell me why or I'll never be right. More so, if you fail to offer any argument of why I'm wrong, I see no reason to believe I am.

Utopia is far from stupid. Only if we know what we aspire to be when can strive towards it, and as long as we strive towards it it doesn't if we ever reach it.

But you guys see, as chippy said: if we're honest, we agree on many things. So let's not hate on each other for disagreeing over certain nuances of a system we all support to quite an extend.

Sharp one... How lovely to have a discussion partner. Please do elaborate on your opinions, I'm interested

Bruce is to moderate for me

An examination of Utopia in a nutshell What is society? - A collective we as individuals decided to create and live in in order to help ourselves and others to happiness What are the methods of society in order to reach its goal? It is a fatal flaw to give any of society's methods importance over the other! They are all equally needed. In order for these methods to work it is essential that everyone's freedom is assured and protected. No single ideology is to be followed. The government and politics - the government is created of people and institutions that society trusts can bring forward the strive to happiness more quickly - In order to ensure this, society gives the government certain power over the people - However, it is the government who owns society obedience, and not the other way around - People should vote for parties and their ideologies rather than for persons. According to the outcome of the vote, seats in parliament are given to the parties. The government then elects a president (for which a 70% agreement is needed). This is to ensure that the people vote for the ideology that they want their society to follow, while at the same time only the most qualified come into a position of power Philosophy, religion and other teachings - The point of teachings is to introduce society to and teach it about different approaches to a happy life - The point of society however is not to follow a certain teaching but rather to judge and evaluate them all, choose the best of each and let it be a part of itself (society) - Teachings can not be only part of intellectual life, but should be common topics amongst everyone. Good teachers should become celebrities. Art - There are two types of art: The lower and the higher arts. They're names do not state their value but their purpose for society - The lower arts are those who's purpose it is to entertain us. Their role in society is to ensure everyday happiness - The higher arts are those who reflect upon society. Their purpose is to show us where society is at, what its flaws and its benefits are The economy - the purpose of the economy is to ensure everyone's materialistic well being - It is the economy's responsibility to bring forward society, and not the other way around

Oh you know... The bolder the claim the better the evidence should be...

I... No I won't even start arguing about that this time

Can you please name your sources for that?

It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around

"The concept of the social market economy received fundamental impulses from reflection and critique of historical economic and social orders, namely Smithian laissez-faire liberalism on the one hand and Marxian socialism on the other." -Wikipedia on social market economy, which is in place in Germany Told you so(?)

Is not letting someone reincarnate the same as killing someone though?

I'm looking at II proletarians and communists, more specifically the 10 points Marx makes

Please read what I said... If we reduce it down to its values. I know about that, but if you would please try not to think "Marx wrote that" but rather "Marx wrote that, but probably because of the time he lived in." And besides, does anyone read what I write? Obviously Germany is not communist or Marxist, but my point is that the (let's call it that) reason why Marx came up with communism mostly does not really exist anymore. It's just a little thought experiment: would Marx write anything if he was alive today? To be honest, I think the answer is no, for the reasons I stated.

Only a liberal would be able to toss aside a person's entire life's work and hijack them as one of their own. What I meant by that post was not that we live in a society according to Marx teachings, but that our society is close enough to Marx believes that he would not have a reason to really "complain" to the same extend... We have come a long way, and we have come faaaar closer to what Marx would I consider a fair society than industrial Europe was.

Also, note that the intention of the post was not to show that Germany is Marxist (which is simply wrong), but rather to point out that our systems are a mixture of the best of several systems, and no ideas should simply be tossed aside, I chose communism because ppl tend to be somewhat against that (for whatever reason ), and so it would be easy to show what I mean.

The question is wether Marxism is a timeless philosophy, and to be honest, I don't think so. Marx was heavily influenced by the time he lived in, I highly doubt his opinions would be anywhere near as extrem if he would be around today. The industrial revolution was a time of extreme inequality, so obviously Marx put a extreme system up against. Do you really expect a completely new thinker to come of with a perfect system right away? Ideas take generations to fully develop... And during this time, the parts raft don't hold up get dropped, but the parts that are considered good are kept. And workers rights and protection of the working class essentially is a rather good idea, don't you think? But if we reduce Marxism down to its values, which is why I chose these points, it really isn't all to different from what we have today. Marx has been one of history's most influential thinkers far more than you might think. Don't be fooled, pure capitalism doesn't work either because similarly to how communism would I require selfless people, capitalism would require rational people. There is no such thing as a purley capitalistic society.

Upon comparing Marx 10 points from his manifesto with Germany's market as it is today, I have to say I was rather surprised as to help much actually was implemented. I'll explain. Please note that I read the manifesto on German, so terminology might be off. 1. Expropriation of all land Okay, we don't have that. Marx' claims probably originated in the fact of how much power German landlords did hold at the time. 2. Steeply ascending income tax We have that... In Germany, taxes rises proportionally with income, and those with high income (as in from upper middle class upward) will be charged almost 50% income tax. 3. No inherent wealth Well, not to the full extend. But to be honest, inherent wealth is pretty highly taxed in Germany. 50% or so I believe. 4. Confiscation of all property of emigrants and rebels No. This is a rather weird one.... If anyone knows where this comes from please tell me. 5. Creation of a national central bank with monopoly on credit. Many countries do have a central bank, but the monopoly aspect does not apply. 6. Govermental monopoly on all means of transportation To some extend. Definitely much more in the 70s, but even now many aspects of transportation are run by goverment 7. More national factories, creation of more farming land Again, to some extent. Obviously, the vast majority of firms are run privately, but for example, as mentioned, large parts of transport are completely run by government. Also, for example the state Niedersachsen owns large parts of Volkswagen. Then of course social and health insurance. So, there are few, but more than one might think. 8. Duty to work for all, creation of "workforce armies", especially for agricultural purposes No. Again, a rather odd one. 9. Unification of agricultural and industrial workforce, working towards equality between city and countryside No, not really. There is still a string urbanisation going on. 10. Public and free education of children, abolishment of child labour. Yeah, we got those. Just thought it was rather interesting to see... If Marx would spend some time in today's Germany he'd probably be proud of all the progress And to be honest, most countries have more Marxist elements in them than one might think. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that we should go away from stigmas. We don't need to choose between different systems, we take the best of all. Of course Germany is a free market economy, but I think the little fun I had with the 10 points show how good ideas that might seem opposing at first can actually be implemented into society. DISCLAIMER: This is apparently hard for people to understand: I realise that Germany is not Marxist, communist or socialist. I am not looking at the systems Marx wishes to set in place, I'm looking at the reasons why he wanted these systems. And even then, this is more of a joke that should provoce thinking outside the box, to not to only look at what someone wrote but to analyse it and think wether they'd like different systems throughout time, such as today's. Is it really that hard to understand?

Has extremely dedicated gaming rig Plays PoE Me too ^^

And there shall be many soundtracks to stream and purchase!A spectre is haunting the white March... The spectre of commusicism.

I shall join the fight for a official pillars white March soundtrack. There shall be pillartarian uprising. A revolution, at which's end the means of listening shall be distributed equally amongst the pillartarians.

Wonderful work Pidesco Made me chuckle right there

Yes you right in certain ways because we cannot ignore the reality that the Colonialists, which are my ancestors as you know, did rule for 300 years or so and you will find certain flaws and dysfunctions in the first African leaders which is a contributing factor to the fact that every single African country the French and British gave back was bankrupt by the 1980's ...except for Botswana Take a quick look at this map and see how many countries that was and notice the date they got there independence https://rachelstrohm.com/2014/02/01/african-colonization-independence/ But you have made me think about something you may find interesting, I think you have some deep SJ values which I always think is a good thing. You probably more critical than I am about things like colonialism Have I ever told you about the true nature of Apartheid? It made me a better person ....but its a grim story but real and meaningful. Let me know if you want to know ? I want to know

I've said it before, but I feel like it really fits here, so here we go: Problems with capitalism according to Marx: - Alienation (Entfremdung) from the things you produce, even though specialisations is much more efficient. Marx argues the specialisation of production (everyone in a factory does one very specific thing to produce a good rather than simply do the entire thing) makes the workers disconnect with their work. It steals the creative aspect of production. - Modern workers can be replaced: in modern work, every single human is just a small factor that can be replaced by other humans or machines if the need arises. But, we don't want to be let go. We want there to be a place for us. A human desire to be needed, to say so. - Workers get paid little, while capitalists get rich. Marx calls this "primitive accumulation". (ursprüngliche Akkumulation). An known problem, Marx takes it one place further: He says profit means paying one person to produce something, and selling it at a higher price to another. Marx says this (making a lot of profit) is not being intelligent, profit is in his opinion simply a fancy term for exploitation, and what is being exploited is the labour of the workers. - Capitalism is very unstable: Marx says that crises are not a failure of capitalism, but rather the product of it, and that they are caused by something somewhat weird: Before capitalism, crises were caused by having to little (for example to little food to feed the population). But capitalism produces far more than we need, leading to crises of abundance rather than crises of need. And here is what enraged Marx and gave him hope at the same time: We are so efficient as a society that we could easily dive every person on the planet a house, a car, decent education and healthcare. Going even further, Marx says unemployment is actually freedom. Because our own efficiency can support every life on the planet, Marx argues the goal should be for everyone to work as little as possible and enjoy their new free time. To support this lifestyle, Marx demands that the wealth is spread equally. - Capitalism is bad for capitalists: Marx didn't say capitalists were evil, rather they were victims of their own system. For example, Marx was perfectly aware of the fact that many rich marry not because of love, but for financial reasons. Marx argues that capitalism puts economics at the heart of everyone's lives, so everyone loses their affection for deep emotions (such as love). He called this "commodity fetishism". (Warenfetischismus) and said it makes us value things that have no objective value. He said that without this mindset, the people could start making sensible choirs for nothing but their personal good (rather than financial reasons) - Marx said that capitalism was a economic system that makes us adapt a few strange ideologies: That leisure is bad, that being wealthy makes us happy, that having free time essentially us a bad thing (aside from a few weeks a year) and that it should be the aim of people to make money. Marx said all of these were untrue.