alanschu

They don't need to call the game "Torment 2" to make an awesome CRPG. Furthermore, simply because a game is called "Torment 2" does not make it an awesome CRPG. Imagine what you'd think if EA came out with the exact same press release. The problem is that Fargo is doing exactly what you hate about devs like us. He's leveraging an established property simply because it gets him more money. For as much as people **** all over BioWare and EA (and other companies for doing nothing but making sequels of other games - you just don't happen to like them). You hate DA2 because it changes too much from DAO? Well imagine your perspective if Torment 2 doesn't deliver. Though they would have gotten your money (and more of it) because they called it Torment 2. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you think I'm crapping on your happiness. I wouldn't at all be surprised if you're a hypocrite like so many others that lambasts other companies for doing nothing but making sequels, but once it's a sequel of a game that YOU like suddenly such restriction does not apply. Here's the thing about Planescape: Torment: it wasn't a sequel. For all the people that go "GIVE ME PSYCHONAUTS 2!" to Tim Schaefer, or "GIVE ME PLANESCAPE: TORMENT 2" to people like Avellone, imagine what we would have missed out on if, instead of making Psychonauts or Planescape: Torment, they had decided to make a sequel instead. It'd mean we wouldn't have gotten either game. We probably would have still gotten a good game (since Schaefer and Avellone are good game designers), but the glory of Kickstarter is it lets you actually try something new. At least with Wasteland 2, it's something Fargo has wanted to do for decades (even then, he's still including a taste of Fallout, much to the chagrin of some Wasteland purists). If you genuinely just want sequels to games that you like, you're not really being any better than the people you insult that want sequels of games that you don't want (that ultimately take money away from trying new things, like Planescape: Torment). You want MORE games like Project Eternity? Show the publishers that new IPs with game mechanics that you like are what you want. Torment 2 runs the risk of saying to publishers "Lets buy up old IPs and try to revive them." A game inspired by Torment that delivers on the gameplay that Torment has, but isn't Torment, can only say "Hmmm, games like that can be pretty successful." I don't see "someone that still has guts to make good games." I see someone that wants to leverage a near iconic IP because it'll get him more money than otherwise. Naming a game "Torment 2" has no bearing at all on whether or not the game will be any good, nor whether or not InXile has the "guts" to make a good game. Exactly, though this comparison is a detriment to Bioshock. Bioshock is a fun game, but as a spiritual sequel to System Shock 2, it falls flat on its face. DAO was successful, but there's plenty of Baldur's Gate fans that hate that it's considered a spiritual successor. Project Eternity has the advantage that it's not going to be a sequel, spiritual or otherwise. It draws inspiration from the Infinity Engine games, in terms of presentation and what can be done. But it's not a new Baldur's Gate. it's not a new Icewind Dale. It's not a new Planescape: Torment. Even though a part of me feels it has the best chance at dethroning a game like Planescape: Torment. It has all the advantages that Torment had (plus a few extras, like Sawyer), of a unique/unfamiliar setting, and limited expectation on what themes it will deliver on. I have some ideas on what they are thinking they are going to do with souls and whatnot. Torment 2 has already decreed "We have a vision for what the important themes are that make a Torment game." You better damn well hope they line up with yours because if they don't, the game isn't going to be as well received.

I was just chatting about this with a friend and I think he summarized my verbosity nicely: I get the impression that a Torment 2 is akin to saying "I want to copy PST because the thing that made PST special was that it didn't copy anyone else!" "Inspired by Torment" would make me a lot more confident and optimistic than "The sequel to Torment." JMO.

My objection is that (especially given the restraint), there's no point in naming the game Torment aside from tugging on the heart strings since people highly regard the game Torment. For the same reason I'm not a fan of Interplay reviving the old Black Isle Studios name. It's manipulative and not necessary. Stating that they want to make a torment style game would be fine. But noooo, they are naming this game Torment straight up, and have said "Torment games have these themes." What made Torment amazing was that it was new, fresh, and unexpected. He's already handicapped himself for what the game's themes can be (i.e. a rehash of the same themes explored in Torment, so what was surprising and unique in the original game is now being leveraged to acquire more money, all the while undermining the potential for being surprised and unique in the same way that the original game could be." Yes, PE has expectations based on its comparison, but they have some wiggle room in still doing their own thing. Torment 2 has handicapped themselves to have the same things that Torment had. The irony of suggesting "breaking down RPG tropes" like the first game, all the while mandating that the game has to have the same RPG tropes established by the original game. Project Eternity has more freedom because they can take what they want from the "inspired by Infinity Engine games" comment. A lot of it mechanical (which is just a means of delivering an experience, with it's strengths and weaknesses). My objection is that this seems like a pretty blatant attempt at grabbing more money for a Kickstarter by latching on to one of the greatest RPGs ever made and milking the title for additional funds. The idea they have is fine, but this isn't the same as "I've been wanting to make Wasteland 2 for decades now." This is "I want to make an RPG that has some of the gameplay elements that Torment established. I might as well name it Torment 2, and all the pitfalls it comes with doing so, because it will get me more money." This coming from Brian Fargo, who allegedly hates big name publishers and all they do, and their sequelitis because sequels are safer, known commodities. And yes, I understand that I work for a company (and on a project) that is a sequel as well. He's underutilizing the kickstarter angle which allows him the creative freedom to try new things, by latching on to such a powerful franchise because it will get him more money. PST is pretty much sacred to me, and I suppose I'm a hypocrite because I was okay with things like Fallout 3 and so forth. But none of those games were developed under the guise of using a novel new funding mechanism that frees developers from their creative shackles and lets them try new and riskier methods. As a developer that works for a big name publisher, what excites me about PE (and even WL2) is that it provides the avenue to make games that are considered "too risky" for big name publishers, and has the potential for them to be home run knockouts that force big name publishers to take notice. Project Eternity is taking general game concepts from a mechanical point of view to proof out that those mechanics are viable for a game dev to focus on. Torment 2 is saying "lets make a game and get more money by associating it as a sequel, while also increasing the intrinsic risk since the idea of satisfying the fans." Project Eternity isn't ACTUALLY an Infinity Engine game (and even then, it's just an engine). If Project Eternity had been "Baldur's Gate 3" then the expectations grow immensely. At least Fallout 3 was pretty unabashedly being made for a different crowd. Torment 2 is being aimed specifically at the same fans of Planescape: Torment, with promises that it will deliver on the same themes and situations that Planescape: Torment did. In other words, this isn't just another isometric RPG... it's a game that is going to blow our minds like Planescape: Torment did. At least it better, since they've leveraged the title in order to solicit more support. It is limiting, because we as gamers already know what the game is going to be about - the new and fresh themes that were established in the original. Which is completely contrary to what PST delivered (since Torment 2 is bound to attempt to recreate what PST delivered, lest it be a failure). Might as well just say "we're going to wow you just the same as PST did!" and step on your landmine right from the get go. It probably doesn't help that I have less confidence in Fargo and Co. delivering (in large part based on conversations/topics he posts on the forum for WL2. I have seen him consider very simple and obvious "third choice" outcomes as being examples of meaningful choices and consequences for WL2. The idea that the third choice actually turn out WORSE for him was something he found pretty surprising. Sure, he was receptive to feedback and admitted he'd need to go back and reexamine, the idea of Torment 2 being a "community developed project" in the same way that WL2 has been doesn't inspire much confidence either. I dunno, I just see people like Avellone and Sawyer as being some of the strongest in their respective suits. I contributed to WL2 because Avellone was involved in some capacity.

Hah! We got hit by quite the illness bug over the holiday ourselves!

I don't think it means that Fargo feels that Wasteland 2 will be a horrible game. Depending on who he feels his target audience is, as well as staffing issues, he may have the idea that waiting for WL2 to be done won't really lead to a significant change in the types of backers (perhaps just replacing Wasteland fans with Torment fans, and so forth) so the numbers don't change enough to justify sitting on the idea (and possibly having staff idle, or worse, laid off) compared to going forward with the idea sooner. I do believe that there's only a certain type of person that will genuinely be okay with backing, and expect WL2 to sell more games than it had backers, and that this won't really change even if WL2 is awesomesauce.

For me, the real issue is "why call it Torment?" The things he listed are things I want in pretty much all my RPGs. But in calling it Torment, you still have a better hook for what their goal is than if they just stated the things he listed. It also sets expectations. I agree that it's used as a hook. Fargo will be kickstarting this project, and tugging on the nostalgia of Torment will undoubtedly bring in more money. Still, even Obsidian only said "inspired by the Infinity Engine games" and that was certainly enough. Based on Fargo's interview, I see him trying to shoe-horn in a definition of what makes Torment (which in many cases are nebulous terms that could apply to any project) in an attempt to franchise the term "Torment." He ends up painting himself into a corner by doing so, and removes the creative freedom for themes that Planescape: Torment was allowed to explore. There was nothing forcing PST to have the things that it had in it. Suddenly Fargo has said "A torment game means having these themes." Therefore, the game must have those themes. Themes that were discovered while playing PST are now prescribed because evidently it's what makes the game a "Torment" game. Part of what made PST so great was that I didn't really know what to expect. I'd prefer something new and fresh, along the lines of what PE is doing (and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if PE does an excellent job of wowing me much the same way that Torment did), rather than latching on to an older IP and setting yourselves to the expectations that come along with it.

For me, the real issue is "why call it Torment?" The things he listed are things I want in pretty much all my RPGs. The issues I have with calling it Torment is that it will immediately make it linked to PST and hold it to PST's standards, as well as place immediate comparisons during development. It's no longer standing alone. I don't usually consider myself a cynic, but there's no reason, aside from tugging on nostalgia, to call this game Torment.

Here has it a little bit, but it's not like this place is the Codex or anything.

Hah, I am definitely a "only my friends call my Al" type of guy. I tend to prefer Allan.

The only place I really frequented PST discussion not long after release was Planet Baldurs Gate. Although the problem I found there was that the group was insular, and because I was stuck somewhere, but later figured it out, someone felt the need use my post as an example for others "See people. Take the time to figure the stuff out for yourself for a change like this guy." There was a bit of a smug elitism going on, and I stopped posting.

Disagree. BSN is significantly more hostile than this forum, though less so than a place like Blizzard. It's as much a function of how large a developer is. I actually started posting on this forum instead of the old BioBoards way back in 2004 because I didn't like where the BioBoards were headed. Again, there's this idea of consensus of hatred. Civ5 is an immensely popular game. I actually do think Civ4 is in general a slightly superior product, but there's a reason why Civ5 is in the top 5 of my Steam total time played list (as is Civ4). There may have been people outraged by Firaxis, but people that are upset are always more vocal, and always more represented (another thing that Gaider alluded to). I have loved Firaxis since Alpha Centauri, and their studio is still one that leads me to buy games on Day One from them because I've yet to be disappointed by their products. This is why going to a forum, as Gaider said (since his post was in response to someone saying "I hope you don't base all your feedback on BSN") is often not a very representative sample of a game's install base. Especially as gaming in general becomes more mainstream.

It is a joke. I think it says as much about you, however, that you think it could have possibly been true. I know people like to think the only reason why a game like DA2 would have the review scores it does is because we went out and paid for them (though why we'd only pay for a 79-82 is a bit beyond me....), but the reality is that our team uses metacritic as one (of many) metric for how well we delivered on a quality game experience. Buying review scores would certainly undermine this, and DA2's metacritic score definitely tells us "We didn't deliver." Our goal is typically 90+, and DA2 fell well short of that. But confirmation bias is a pretty common thing. It's why people will place so much stock in an internet poll that has EA being the worst company in America, even though the internet is overflowing with a history of online polls being unreliable. For anyone that seriously thinks that EA is the worst corporation in the entire world, I think that those people have had it pretty good in life then. EA is a video game publisher/developer that makes a relatively inexpensive luxury good (compared to a lot of stuff), with no shortage of alternative options. If this is the worst company in America, life must be pretty good for people. Since Volourn drew attention to your post, however: I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion at all. Gaider makes no commentary at all about whether or not BioWare needs to change in order to be successful. Of course, we'd probably also need to define what it means to be successful. DA2, for instance, certainly made money, but I'd agree it wasn't successful since the qualitative reception is not what we would have preferred. Gaider's comments regarding critiques that are intelligent is simply that not ALL negative commentary is just angry trolling. It's pretty straight forward and I think you're just reading more into this blog post (which is about the toxic nature of online communities) than is actually there. When I post on BSN, I have a preference to respond more to the well spoken, non-vitriolic critiques since it's useful for me to try to understand different perspectives. Although unfortunately for some, that they are coming in late and posting a similar topic means I likely will not respond to them (because it's a discussion I already had). Filtering past those that hound dev posts simply to make glib and snide comments grows tiresome. Because I'm also a moderator, I cannot outright ignore posts when people bring them to my attention, since those violating forum rules will need to be addressed. I find it interesting that I was pointed to this article (perhaps appropriately, by Ray on Facebook) since I think it's important for humans to be reminded of it to try to mitigate the effects. I think it's important for consumers to also recognize it. Even on this forum, there's the fallacy that "because I like/hate something, my reasons must be the consensus principal reasons for it being liked/hated by others." There wasn't even consensus on what people disliked about the ME3 endings (leading to full threads of people saying "Thank you, just what I wanted" as well as "WTF BioWare, this isn't what we wanted at all!" in response to the extended cut). There wasn't consensus on this board about what makes an "Infinity Engine game" an "Infinity Engine game." (Cooldowns on magic!? I DEMAND A REFUND! Vancian style magic or no deal!). But when a group of people are upset, they recognize the strength in numbers, and will believe that all those that are upset are upset for the same reasons they individually feel, even though they would clearly see that's not the case if they just took the time to read what ALL the complaints are.

I can understand why they don't make it public domain. Although frankly, as I stated, if doing so would mean "Planescape: Torment 2" then I'd prefer it remain buried. I love PST because it's not a sequel. If a sequel had been made instead of PST we'd all have been in a worse off place. The advantage this Torment 2 has is that it's possible to do even better. Though really, it doesn't need to be "Torment 2" to do so. I have high hopes on Project Eternity being able to wow me the way PST did, and it's not set in the Planescape universe.

They do mind. 20 lashings. Oh wait, you weren't talking about coffee anymore were you?

I believe WotC has buried the Planescape setting. I doubt they aren't allowing a BG3, however. Having said that, I'm glad we got PST instead of just another sequel.... I am definitely NOT interested in a genuine "Planescape: Torment 2"

I've been so ingrained with OO programming it's funny how much more involved my solution would likely have been... lol.

I actually really liked the die rolls too. They became a meta game in and of themselves. I only played with friends that I knew in real life, so maybe with randoms it wouldn't be as awesome, but I remember my friend laughing at me as I rolled a 2, only for his roll to literally be a 1 right after. Karma! XD The class story stuff was pretty reminiscent of playing BG1 as a co-op MP experience.

I hope MCA spends all of his time on making Obsidian's games as awesomesauce as possible, TBH. At this point, time spent on other studio projects is time not spent on his own studio's. I could understand when things were somewhat slow (and probably uncertain) for Obsidian's future. Fortunately, with Project Eternity that is no longer the case. I hope it stays that way for them.

One of my favourites was male Jedi Knight responding to a pleading pirate (that stole a rakghoul serum) with "Less talk, more serum" hahaha. It actually has become a meme "Less talk, more <subject>" between the friend that was a part of my group and I. We're on the same volleyball team, and I'll be like "Less talk, more blocking!" and stuff like that. TOR's biggest draw for me was that it allowed myself and friends to share in entertaining stories. Tons of memories from the game from various things we did, to how we responded to particular points (especially if it was unexpected). Some of the schizophrenic decisions would leave me in stitches. I remember the first Flashpoint, with my Jedi being all heroic "I am here to help" and the moment the ship started getting attacked, it was "Out of my way I need to find an escape pod!" And I don't even consider the Jedi Knight to be nearly as well done as the agent. Having the voice actor actually change his accent based on his cover was an awesome attention to detail. Though since you mentioned it, melkathi, I actually needed to google Darrowshire.... Hahaha.

This is pretty much the way I see it too, unfortunately.

The main issue I have is that, of the things listed, the vast majority I want in my RPGs in general. I also don't know how "Torment" really links it, as torment as a verb was very common in the game, in that people suffered from Torment.

In any case, while PST is my favourite RPG, I'm actually not all that interested in this. I find it akin to Interplay reviving the Black Isle label. If you want to make a kickass game with metaphysical themes about what it means to be alive and conscious, it doesn't need to have "Torment" in the title.

When I mentioned "the world" I meant everyone (domestic and foreign).

Remind me why the South African Constitution is rubbish? You need to be careful when you make blanket insults against a country that is based on your ignorance, it undermines your point and you come across as some kind of uninformed and emotional fanatic. I made no insult against an entire country. Anyone with half a brain in South Africa would realize and does realize what I said. I'm not going to do your reading for you. If you've read it as well as the originating documents I mentioned along with just a few other Constitutions in the world, it should be obvious to a junior high schooler unless they're truly naive. And that's if they don't get the banking clause or know what goes on in that nation. If you understand the implications of the central banking clause of that document as well as have a larger grasp of how the monetary system in the world works, and where the UN, IMF, World Bank came from you'd see the document for what it is. One could write a lot about that particular Constitution and how it's rubbish through and through. Sorry my comparison of the South African Constitution to that of the U.S.S.R. bothers you, but its 100% right on. Both Constitutions (as well as most Constitutions in the world) are little more than pieces of paper to placate the subjects of the nation, totally ignored by those who wrote them. Ever notice that a super large chunk of the world is a democracy now yet the people in most nations really truly don't have a say and never did? I'm guessing not. Take a chill pill Alex. You're only serving to show that you shouldn't own a firearm because you're unequivocally demonstrating your mental deficiencies. Stop acting like a Junior High schooler yourself, before going around lambasting others for allegedly acting with your own mental capabilities. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but my assessment is 100% right on. Anyone with half a brain sees this, which is likely why you don't and why you're an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Especially given you're already willing to squash a person's first amendment rights because you disagree with their opinions, you're not only talking stupid but also a hypocrite! Come back when you're willing to respect your own constitution because you clearly don't. And I'm sorry if this bothers you, but it's 100% right on. Unfortunately due to Dunning-Kruger and cognitive dissonance defense mechanisms, it'll either woosh right over your head, or you'll just deny it. This was fun wasn't it!? This post was mostly a satire of your posting style. Mostly.

Speaking of Alex again. This made me snort laugh: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/01/08/alex-jones-spins-piers-morgan-appearance-i-dont-respect-that-show/