Zenbane

Nice update! One thing is for sure, I look forward to repeated playthroughs regardless of any limitations I may encounter; as they are all most likely temporary anyway )

I do enjoy reading your posts, especially your "middle of the road" replies lol; you have that down to a science. In Sen's case, I do not believe that the fact that he 'was' a Backer entitles him to this incessant posts about the same 'ol point of view. And it's incessant because, as Tigranes pointed out, Sen does it, "about a thousand and one times." Being a Backer doesn't entitle anyone to unproductive spam. Besides, the term Backer only really meant something before the game was released. We are beyond that now, the game was released, and we are all Backers since we have purchased the retail game. More appropriate terms should be used instead of "backer" ... like Promoter and Detractor. I consider myself (and others) to be a Promoter because we not only purchased the retail game, but we continue to promote its purchase (highly recommended to others). Whereas Sen is definitely a Detractor. Each of his "thousand and one" posts works more towards deterring someone from purchasing PoE. At this point, I no longer consider him a Backer, he's a Detractor. Blasphemy! Combat was quite awesome unless the genre itself isn't your cup 'o tea. It seems like you don't like gaming in general since you also state, "Combat in games generally (with few exceptions) becomes old fast." Either you secretly hate video games, or you get bored fast. I'm gonna assume you hate video games since you have nearly 300 posts thus clearly don't get bored fast.

The Moderator split this topic over here since it was derailing a good PoE discussion. I dont plan to check this thread since I disagree wholeheartedly with Elerond's opinion (refer to the articles I posted). Anyone is free to debate my ideas (insult them, etc); I'm gonna get back to talking about video games now

Yes I realize that the reason you can't stop yourself from replying about Math is because you firmly believe your opinion is a concrete fact, but nope, I see your opinion as only your opinion. A quote from one of the articles I posted: It should be clear by now which stance I take. I know you won't be able to stop replying about your opinion, and I guarantee you that I will continue to disagree with what you're saying.

You aren't correcting anything, you are just stating your opinion over and over, and I do not agree with your opinion. You can type up as much as you like, but I agree with the line of reasoning in the articles I posted, not your opinion.

I think you need some magic to actually understand what math is, but everybody is free to defined words as they want, but don't be surprised if other people don't know what you mean. I provided 2 links to articles that fully discuss what you claim to be "magic" I respectfully disagree with your point of view on Math. You won't change my mind but I'm also trying to get back on topic. Agree to disagree?

I think that in case of PoE Josh and others have mostly referred them as flags. But you need to have some sort flagging/keyword system in place if want to have effects/checks/etc. that have conditions on them depending on some specific status in the game. I would guess that they haven't really talked about such system because it's behind the hood mechanic that as itself shouldn't matter for player, but only effects that it has. But I think that "Not communicated well to player" means that game does poor job to indicate what things are effected by keywords system. Like for example there is no straightforward way to tell for sure if something does poison damage or not, but to read trough its description to find out that such is the case. Which makes it harder to know what things don't work against one with poison immunity or such. Agreed, although this is extremely common. Typically the only time "full disclosure" of the inner workings of a game (including Keywords/Flags) is when a Modding Kit is made available.

I do love MMORPG's as well, and have fully played through: 1) Dark Age of Camelot 2) Warhammer Online 3) Final Fantasy Online 4) Star Wars The Old Republic One thing I can say is that I did enjoy the single player questing (lore) from most of these RPG's. So if you also enjoyed them, then games like PoE will give you much more entertainment since the storyline is much more invovled and rich. In contrast, storyline and lore in MMORPG's tends to get monotonous and only serves to help characters level up more quickly or gain a certain item, which helps in PvP or group PvE raids.

Take a look at some Modding Tutorials for pretty much any RPG. They don't necessarily say, "Keyword System" and may refer to these types of things as Tags, Properties, Labels. But it's all the same thing: "a user-friendly piece of text that applies characteristics to an object or behavior." Check out Skyrim's example of making an Amulet a "Quest" Item (where "Quest" is the Keyword): http://www.creationkit.com/File:AutofilledProperty.png A better example is the Editor that literally applies Keywords to the creation of an Item: http://www.creationkit.com/File:ElderCouncilAmulet.png For this Amulet, the following Keywords were assigned: ArmorJewelry VendorItemJewelry JewelryExpensive Another example is Legend of Grimrock 2, which is full of Keywords to control Damage Types and Resistances: Get damage type of the attack: “physical” (default), “cold”, “fire”, “poison” or “shock” http://www.grimrock.net/modding/scripting-reference/#RangedAttackComponent Those are all Keywords that a Modder must type in code when creating Custom Ranged Attacks (in this example)

Umm, just about every RPG ever made has a keyword system. How do you think things like Immunity and Resistance work? Damage types like Missile, Physical, and Elemental? This system has been in place for RPG's since the 80's; hardly out of the blue.

The repetitive switching isn't happening as quickly as your post makes it seem, but even if it did (for the sake of argument), it still doesn't address what I was asking. All you did was point out how the idea of Variety could exist in general by replacing one form of spam with another. My question was how this creates "more" variety than before. Players could perform the variety you describe all on their own through different character class build combinations. Immunities decrease those possibilities, so where is the "more variety" ? Remember, "more variety" is not the same as "some variety"

If that's the case, then why did you say that your question is rhetorical? This is what you claimed is rhetorical, "Keyword system? What the heck is that? Have we just learned about an upcoming new feature?" Elerond pointed out that this Keyword system already existed, and you replied to him saying you were being rhetorical. If you were being rhetorical then you must be saying that you knew it was NOT a new feature. But now you're saying that he mentioned "Keywords" out of the blue. "out of the blue" <> "I knew it already existed" This is why I assume the point of this thread is for you to boast about the fact that you had a chat session. Since you really aren't being very consistent with the information you are trying to present. In fact, I have no idea what the point of this thread is.

Elorond doesn't think Math exists because he's an Elf that relies on magic. Nothing much left to say about that. Can we get back on topic now? There are 2 main points in this thread: 1) Immunities create less variety because they limit group builds 2) Immunities create more variety because they prevent users from using monotonous tactics The contradiction here is that the only way Immunities could increase variety is if they somehow prevented replacing one set of monotonous tactics with another. Which is NOT the case. People were spamming one thing before the Immunities update, now they will be spamming another thing. Or am I wrong on that? Also, the people claiming that Immunities increase variety seem to (repeatedly) avoid addressing the limitations in group build varieties.

Is it me... or is this thread less about PoE as a simulationist and more about Infinitron boasting that he had a chat session?

Right so according to some of you: 1) The world really was flat until we discovered it was round 2) The sun really revolved around the Earth until we discovered otherwise I tend to disagree. I believe that the earth was always round and that it always revolved around the sun. Discovering something doens't bring it in to existence; it must exist prior to the discovery. An example of Math that existed before life on Earth: Gravity Clearly some of you prefer to be more philosophical on the matter. Not so much chicken/egg, but more "if a tree falls and no one hears it" ... lol Fun readings: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/04/is-mathematics.html http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2010/04/01/is-mathematics-invented-or-discovered/

Im pretty sure Math existed before organisms, planets, the solar system, etc.

I'm pretty sure that "math" is more Ancient than "algorithm"

I find Pillars to be quite lively actually. It's no darker than the modern world, as far as I can tell. Hell, the modern world has been known to be much, much darker. To me, "dark" means that the game ventures in to aspects that, by societal standards, are utterly deprived to the core. This game doesn't introduce anything remote close to that lol

"Programming is math in itself is called algorithm an is a rather ancient mathematical term by now." Algorithms are ancient? Go look at your web browser when you connect to a secure site using HTTPS. Click in there and look at the Certificate information. You will see stuff like, "Certificate Algorithm" with values, "PKCS #1 SHA-256 With RSA Encryption" Ancient? Far from it. Algorithms are on the leading edge of all online security. Also, Programming is not math, and Programming is not called an Algorithm. Math may be part of an algorithm, and programming may implement an Algorithm, but they are not all the same thing. You are playing some serious guess-work. The rest of your post is equally unfounded.

Heeeyyy, NO SPOILERS!! GEEZE!! Fair review though. I can agree with the 7 rating. Oh and I love that IceWind Dale map! Brought back some seriously great memories. For me, IWD is a perfect 10. Cheers!

Well Vorad, it seems that by using the word Math I have caused you to spiral out of control. You just replied to me as though these 3 other posters didn't already address everything you're trying to introduce: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82975-a-closer-analysis-on-class-balance-and-the-203-patch/?p=1746841 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82975-a-closer-analysis-on-class-balance-and-the-203-patch/?p=1746902 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82975-a-closer-analysis-on-class-balance-and-the-203-patch/?p=1746952 Also, video games have more Math than you could possibly imagine. It's impossible to create a single aspect of any video game without Math. I'd recommend that you do some research before advocating that Math has no place in a discussion about software. And before you scream that this discussion isn't about software, you may want to research what the word "patch" refers to.

Quite a few things wrong with all of that. First of all, you snuck in a premise that the Knockdown attempt uses the exact same force as the previously executed attack. That is blatantly wrong. It's common sense that spells and attacks use a different amount of energy/endurance/mana (etc), so naturally a character cannot simply spam the same thing over and over. It's not that a Fighter "forgot" how to Knockdown an enemy after doing it twice; it's simply that the Fighter is at a level where they only have enough Strength/Endurance to perform 2 Knockdowns in a single battle. And that makes perfect sense. A title earned by training against all things that are NOT dragons; which is useless when a Dragon finally shows up. You knocked down a wolf so yeah you can take down a giant winged lizard? lol So unless this fighter spent his life training against Dragons, then all those years of training wont make the task easy by default. Getting a Dragon off its feet is in no way the same as taking down a human or any other mammal. The physics of the task don't even make sense. You are 100% Theorycrafting. I actually love everything you said after this statement. Your post was spot on except for this opening. Yes of course if you strip something away and call it something else, then the original analysis of the original thing goes out the window. That's no kinda point. The fact is that the Knockdown ability is NOT a mystical disorientation; it is a physical maneuver executed physically. Period. And within that context, the analysis people like Karkarov are stating is in fact valid. But like I said, the rest of your post was fabulous

Well yes, if all I needed to do to win before was standing on the left side. You have said it yourself in reply to Karkarov's post: "and spam a different CC based on immunity results" - at least you need to do something differently and that's the variety I am speaking about. Then I suppose my stance is that there is much more variety achieved from replaying the game using different group and character builds. People clearly enjoy that more than anything; just look at all the posts on this board alone regarding "starting over." People start over with different groups/builds for fun, and even moreso after a patch is released. In this regard, I feel that an increase in immunities decreases the potential group/character build options, which actually limits the overall variety found in the game.

That's the thing... yes... it does. As the game exists prior to 2.03 you can simply find one strat that works for you and apply that strat to every single encounter in the game and it will be valid. When nothing is restricted there is no incentive to ever change your approach to an encounter. There is a fine line you have to walk though because you can get too limited. Obsidian is not making a game where there are 5 types of damage and an enemy is immune to all but one. Enemies that make logical sense having an immunity, like the fire elemental versus fire damage I mention earlier, or a dragon being immune to knock down, get those things. That said that's it, they aren't immune to every other type of damage or every status affliction. Just the ones that make sense. I see what you mean. I just don't think that this added true variety. It just (seems) to force people to resort to a monotony of a different type. Example: you can't Knockdown every enemy so just abuse doorway/corner battles more often, and spam a different CC based on immunity results. Besides, the game inherently provided variety through the various character class builds. Now with the added immunities, the game has removed variety by forcing players to include specific abilities for every single playthrough.

You're not convinced? Well I don't think anyone is trying to convince you. No one can convince someone of something if they already are set with their preconceived notions. You have been skeptical with every reply from the beginning, making it quite obvious that your question was rhetorical (you dont believe a Hatchet should have this ability in PoE). Most of the replies have just been fun for the sake of discussion. Also, your supposed "summary" is very misleading. People said that Axes started off as tools and then became weapons, dual-use. You chose to rephrase this to, "Its a tool not a weapon." Anyway, here's an article that does a great job of discussing hatchets in combat: http://www.brownsafe.com/blog/top-10-tactical-tomahawks/ I'm sure there are other great articles as well. None of which will convince anyone of anything tho