Zenbane

So... am I really wrong to think that a Paladin should be more defense-centric than a Fighter? I've always experienced Fighters in an RPG setting to be either offensive or tactical (utility). However, when a Paladin shows up the general notion has been, "hooray, a pure meat shield is here!" If I'm wrong someone educate me please lol

*edit* wrong thread

That's a poor excuse to keep perpetuating what clearly becomes completely nonconstructive and repetitive diatribes. Just look at how many times you and Sensuki say something like, "And as I said before." Yes it's a discussion board, but the goal should at least resemble something meaningful. The occasional banter and pointless exchange is natural, expected, and often entertaining. But in this case, it's just painful and unnecessary. Your posts are very well thought out and constructive, but your judgement could use some empowering. Sensuki already stated that he doesn't care to stay on topic during a discussion, he doesn't like the combat in PoE, and he doesn't like the plot. I don't think he should be banned since he isn't a blatant troll, but he should definitely just be ignored. The online forum equivalent of being sat in the corner with a dunce cap. The only person that really keeps encouraging him at this point is you lol As drty stated, this thread should be closed.

I'd rather see a Game Editor so that we can finally have some true Mod's to this genre.

Agreed. I quickly realized Sensuki is more interested in pharming post counts than doing anything remotely close to RPG gaming. He has nearly 10,000 posts but hasn't beaten the game yet lol He thinks he made the right choice to stop playing the game, but repeatedly fails to the see the irony in his incessant posts about the game he supposedly stopped playing. A smarter gamer would have... you know... moved on

brindle is really jaded by Barbarians lol If anyone would like to read a more properly thought out Barbarian analysis, take at the work done by nerdcommando.gamestudios: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844

Well 20 people in a poll is still 19 more people than the 1 friend you polled in your PoE vs BG2 survey, right? If not enough people respond then it's probably more an indication that no one cares about the issue. Be sure to include "I dont care" as a poll option. I do agree with Fenixp regarding inventory management via Weight restrictions. Most Dungeon Crawlers do this, and it is not very fun nor immersive. Just time consuming in all the wrong ways, imo.

20 years from now, people won't care about patching process. What they will care about is playing the game for another 20 years because they didn't get to try all the class combinations that they know will all be enjoyable because all of them have just the right amount of power and utility to make them interesting. Indeed. This is common for all legendary games, and I certainly hope PoE follows suit. Although, with the constant changes to character classes, we really don't have to wait 20 years to try all combinations. You know, since combinations are changing right before our eyes lol btw, I agree with Valorian. Why not just put Fighters above Paladins instead of doing a "just kidding" update to Paladins? Backing out of implementations just gives the impression that there is no real strategic planning for these character classes. It seems to be more whimsical.

I think you get a free Nerf of your choice in the next patch

Agreed. The ongoing nerf's would be understandable if this were a multiplayer game, especially a PvP game. But repeated class nerfs in a single player RPG? Is this the result of the whole kickstart/backers approach?

Typing words without directing them towards the issue at hand (aka, "topic") is not a discussion, it's just someone typing words. Bots are scripted to do the very same thing. So while you're interested in the general concept of discussion (typing words), I tend to be more interested in an intellectual exchange of ideas. This has never been about what you are referring to. The whole reason you and I are having a discussion (well, I'm trying to discuss while you are just typing random words) is because you jumped in to an exchange between Gairnulf and myself. I originally responded to Gairnulf in terms of "reading the play" but he corrected me by saying he specifically meant "easier to read." You jumped in to defend his English and somehow confused yourself in to thinking that the whole "reading the game" debate really took place between you and I lol You have no idea what you're interjecting in to this conversation. I already addressed this; as have other posters addressed the things you keep saying over and over again. But I think you made your point: this is about you winning some discussion based solely on your ability to type "the last word."

The character builds are based on publicly available information; things you can see in-game, and things everyone can read via patch notes. Everything you just typed has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, nor the reality of the present day character builds. Your entire response misses the mark completely. For example... We are talking about the parts of the game that involve being, and I quote, "easier to read" You topic shift with every one of your responses to just about every person you respond to. You certainly know how to type well, now if you only you can focus on the actual issue lol

Gairnulf is Bulgarian. English is not his first language. The way I read his post I thought that his friend may have been talking about combat being *visually* easier to read, which I find is also the case for me. The attacks per round system of the IE games means that units act at a consistent pace throughout combat and there are no UI elements like Engagement arrows or Unit Combat HUDs or flashy 3D spells that light up the screen like a Christmas tree obscuring characters in the process. Some of the rules in Pillars of Eternity are also unintuitive such as the use of percentages for pretty much everything and complicated additive multiplication maths for attack speed and damage (among other things). In contrast 1D6+1 and the like are pretty simple to understand. Hovering over characters and enemies in PoE combat gives a great deal of information (resists, weaknesses, dmg, def, buffs, debuffs) in a very easy to digest manner. My opinion here of course, but I found this to be a very welcome experience compared to many group-combat-based RPG's, even beyond the IE genre. Plus, there are so many skills and abilities that go beyond what most RPG's deliver, that I can't really imagine any other way to implement combat messaging. The character class system is just so intricate, and often reminds me of playing the card game, Magic: The Gathering. More importantly, just look at all of the intense character class build breakdowns available on the Web. Most of them have a huge dependency on effectively understanding whats happening in combat; yet there they are shining through just fine, with gamers constantly playtesting and striving to make the builds better. Each game patch begins this process anew. If the combat system were not as intuitive as some make it out to be, then the overwhelming dedication to complex class builds would likely not exist. Simply put: the community dedication to character builds is a testimony to the ease and intuitiveness of the PoE combat system - including its messaging. As a side note: the messaging system is customizable and mimics the same group-based messaging found in popular MMORPG's (Dark Age of Camelot, World of WarCraft, etc). This form of messaging works just fine for a 100+ person dungeon raid (which usually last hours), so I can't see how it is problematic in a single player game with 6 NPC's lol

I said "easier to read", not "finds the game easier", and the text stands there. Whoever wants to read it can read it, and whoever, like you, wants to twist words can, well, twist words. Nothing I can do about it. Your short term memory could likely use some exercise, since this is what you said, "and he was in favor of BGII as more intuitive and easier to read and tell what's going on." More intuitive and "easier to tell whats going on" sounds like "finds the game easier" to anyone with basic knowledge of the English language. You even listed those out separately from "easier to read." Surely if you only meant the one thing you wouldn't have listed 3 different factors. Also, your imaginary friend seems to have undergone a sex change during your story lol. First you said HE was in favor of BGII, and now you said, "Lol, yes, she exists, beyond any doubt" So is it a She or a He? Is it only reading text, or is it: reading text, more intuitive, and easier to tell what's going on? Maybe write your fiction out separately first, and then post it.

From my experience in RPG games, I simply refer to his as Aggro. Holding Aggro traditionally comes from doing enough damage to hold the mobs attention. Therefore, a good way to pull aggro away from your Tank is to either out-damage the Tank too quickly, or cast a powerful Heal spell (which is treated as out-damaging the Tank). The whole idea was to let Tanks use skills like Taunt, which are on a Timer. Then, the Healers and DPS characters simply perform their actions within the boundaries of the Tanks damage output combined with the Taunt intervals. With that in mind, I have had no problems with combat in PoE. I know when certain characters are doing too much damage to an engaged enemy. I plan ahead and make choices accordingly. Whether intentional or not, PoE combat seems to respond very well to Aggro management.

The fact that you had to describe it as "exposing someone" to these games pretty much gives a way the fact that this friend of yours (assuming they really exist) is not a seasoned RPG gamer. Which makes perfect sense that your friend found a 13 year old game "easier" than something more modern. In other news, the Atari 2600 has proven easier for 2 year olds than the Xbox.

Yes, but who set that context... "A system that separates the two would be more logical and elegant." - Vicarius "I just feel logically combat performance and personality shouldn't be so closely tied." - Vicarius The reason this became an argument against the logic of an alternate system is because you began by arguing against the logic of the existing system. It's the context you set. Maybe instead of starting out by claiming the PoE system isn't logical, you could have instead cited some examples that fit your personal playstyle. Because that's really what this is about, your playstyle - not logic. The Elder Scrolls comes to mind, which implements Speechcraft and Pursasion: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Persuasion http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Speechcraft

Personally I don't really agree with much of what Vicarius has posted but I have to chime in here. "The Art of War" has nothing to do with martial skill, or swords. If you strip it down to what it is, it is a set of rules and strategies that define how best to use the resources at your disposal to achieve success. Whether those resources are a mob of guys with swords, an MMA fighter going for a title win, or a team of lawyers trying to win a court case the rules can still apply. So Sun Tzu was not "teaching you how to swing a sword" he was simply teaching "how to win" regardless of the actual form of the battle. The Art of War teaches many things, including the importance of "knowing yourself" which is very much a personality trait. That was the main point I was addressing by bringing up this old text. Vic believes that a game centered around combat should separate personality from the traits that make someone effective in combat. To me, that is the exact opposite of "know yourself." The Art of War teaches strategic positioning (which virtually all PoE battles rely on) as well as martial skills such as the use of Fire in battle (see: the Art of War Chapter 12). If your point is that the Art of War does not teach actual sword swinging strategies, well hooray for being obvious. Another thing that does not teach sword swinging tactics is having a Strength or Dexterity attribute of 18+. Just because you are strong or agile doesn't mean you are a master of any weapon by default. You still have to undergo years of training in order to make use of your exceptional Strength and Dexterity. Those years of training will most certainly shape your personality, and impact your ability in the battlefield vs your ability in a diplomatic conversation. To excel in either combat or conversation you would have to "know yourself" - and that fact allows the current PoE system to sit perfectly as-is, imo. But if it's too bothersome to bring up the Art of War on a gaming forum then we can put it to rest. Personally I feel that this part of the discussion was the most interesting anyway; since there is likely no chance that PoE will be updated to reflect the changes Vic is requesting, and rightfully so. There's no real point in debating why one person is happy with the current outcome vs another person being happy about the exact same outcome lol

Arguably. What they've actually mastered is a spreadsheet-style marketing. There is also quite a lot of ways to get relatively unlimited money. True. I suppose the point of this discussion, and the reference to EO, isn't just the general notion of "unlimited money," but the outcome of doing so. in PoE, as it is in other games with a similar RPG/Money system, the unlimited money resource provides such a distinct advantage that items that should be a delicacy (eg, dragon dishes) are as common as heal potion. Games like EO greatly mitigate the impact of utilizing your unlimited money resource.

Agreed. PoE is a game that gives you "every choice" and the posts lately seem to stem from some players making choices that work against their own personal preferences. Thus, replying with, "dont do the things you dont wanna do" is perfectly valid The only game I know of that mastered a monetary system is Eve Online. It's notorious for this.

I do enjoy having to scavenge for things like food in a game, but the setting has to be proper. For example, a classic Dungeon Crawler style game is perfect for this (eg, Legend of Grimrock). However, in a standard RPG like PoE I do not believe that this would provide a fun experience. Micromanagement is already hugely prevalent due to the Paused combat requirements. The last thing we need is to take a slow and steady pace for every action leading up to combat. Game advancement would slow to a painful crawl. Besides, any game that implements a Monetary System is doomed to provide unlimited riches. I still remember the original Fallout game, and using a Macro tool that allowed my character to sit at the Gambling table while I slept. i woke up to one wealthy character starting from the early game. Even MMORPG's like Final Fantasy Online cannot prevent this type of behavior. All players end up doing is macroing/pharming areas with loot drops that provide the most income. Where's there's money, there's greed

Well lets keep in mind that you used MMA as an example as to why a video game should separate combat ability from personality. You make some cute references to D&D dice rolls but at this point I'm not sure you're even holding a pair to roll, na' mean? In the end, to me it's become clear that you want less D&D RPG in your video games, and more Mario Kart. As for Sun Tzu, it's taught in both business and law schools to help with detailed strategies in implementing ones craft; eg, how and when to swing a sword.

Have you ever read, "The Art of War," by Sun Tzu? Cause there's this quote about "knowing yourself" that pretty much logically concludes the opposite. Yeah but that is on a macro or strategic/operational level. It has little to do with how well person can swing a sword. Have a look at boxing or mma world champions over the last 10 years. Nobody would say they all are equally capable socially. Although it could be argued most rolled 3's. haha Well I hate to break it to ya, but Sun Tzu wrote this some 2,000 years about (500 BC era), and statues of him literally have him wearing a sword. He wrote this during a time where the sword was actually the main weapon. Boxing and MMA is a "controlled" environment for simulated fighting under a predefined set of rules. That has nothing to do with true unconstrained warfare, which is what you technically experience in PoE; the same unconstrained environment Sun Tzu operated in. But yeah, lol at the rolling of 3's And when you say that it's not about how well a person can swing a sword I'm not sure how you're making that distinction. For example, just having High Strength or Dexterity doesn't mean you are automatically good at using a weapon. The weapon proficiency comes from years of practice. In a video game we don't have that long, so when you're maxing Str and Dex, you're essentially giving that character a background where they spent years of their lives honing those attributes. That is very much a strategic/operational decision that Sun Tzu's philosophies apply towards. And it would certainly impact a persons personality.

Have you ever read, "The Art of War," by Sun Tzu? Cause there's this quote about "knowing yourself" that pretty much logically concludes the opposite.

Your post comes off confusing to me since you seem to be stating that: you want a character that excels at both combat and dialogue, to the best of both abilities, in all cases, so that everything can be perfect for you... but without the character being flawed by being "too powerful." I'm also not sure that a world where a brute force Barbarian can have as charming a dialogue engagement as a Holy Paladin... can be considered "perfect." I think the answer to your problem lies within your opening remark, "I have played this game to L11'ish atleast 5 times" Okay so on the 6th time, play it with a lead character built for optimal dialogue. When you beat the game, replay it with a lead character built for mass combat destruction. Had you done this from the start, you would only have endured 2 full playthroughs with a perfect experience on both sides of the gaming spectrum. Instead of 5 different unsuccessful attempts.