Nur Ab Sal

This I can agree...

On the other hand Anakin lost with geonosians in factory proving his lack of jedi reflex and later was fighting with 80 years old Dooku and lost his right hand Argument that "this is video game" takes back this discussion any credibility. Thinking such way we shouldn't discuss about KOTOR/prequel related problems at all - like duels between malak-windu or bastila-anakin. Surely that wasn't as easy as in the game but Revan and Bastila were for sure very tired when Malak entered the scene.

OK mostly agreed but I throw a few comments anyway: Clone Wars may influence reborn of lightsaber art, true.Howewer 4000 years ago level was higher becouse sith wars were constant element. Thus I believe ancient folks were somehow better in lightsabers. Just like medieval samurai is better than fencing champion from our times. The problem of fall of jedi abilities and force proficiency may be linked to the balance of the force stuff...and don't forget that after Ruusan only 300 jedi survived sith thought bomb - mostly young knights, all experienced masters died and their knowledge with them. Palpatine is using traditional sith powers all the time so it seems that only jedi are weakened. And still I think that Anakin was exceptional becouse he has just normal jedi abilities while his contemporaries were unnaturally weakedend by force imbalance. Note that new jedi trained by Luke are more powerful than MAce or even Yoda.The force is in balance again... Check out the link it should be OK now.

These are all pure speculations. But seeing how weak and pathetic Anakin was in EII as a padawan I'll give more credits to Bastila.

-Bastila was a teenager and only a padawan. Her abilities weren't fully developed. She wasn't any match for Revan and Malak becouse they were already in the beginning of Mandalorian War full fledged jedi knights. Malak - padawan would lost with Bastila - padawan. Malak-experienced jedi and later sith lord is different hotdog. -malak gained great military experience, he was always in the frontlines for years practicing with lightsaber on the mandalorians. Bastila wasn't that experienced. - before duel with Malak Bastila was quite tired after she slew all those sith troopers, dark jedi and other leviathan residents. Malak entered the fight with fresh energy and he was in better condition. That's why he won with Revan and Bastila who were exhausted by previous fight and of course earlier heavily tortured by Karath. - we are discussing duel between E2 Anakin-padawan and KOTOR padawan Bastila becouse they're in same age and on the same level of jedi training. Anakin-padawan would also lost with Malak on the leviathan and with Revan in temple

It would destroy all lore of Skywalker in my opinion. What I love in Skywalker family? It's mysterious beginning What really stinks in KOTOR are plenty of movie's too-obvious references (sith/TIE fighters, uniforms etc) that make game less original and sometimes even clone of GL's creations. I wouldn't mind to see Skywalker descendants 1000 years after ANH but in ancient times? This would really changed KOTOR 3 into a crap.

OK first let's try to make this more civilize, so accept apologies for ungentle insults. Now about EU: Here's the link to quite good site that presents various canon definitions. For the official statement ask Ghost of Anakin he's got a link and I'm too lazy to find you one. And I do believe that some forms look stupid - like form VI that makes really no sense. But I like vapaad, from II and V ideas, so I'll defend them anyway. Aside of Salvatore's novelization, dark horse comics and Shatterpoint, we have Visual Dictionary that is canon like any other licensed book or video game, and articles in star wars insider 62 and 68. Obi-Wan said this sarcastically and there's no reason to take his words seriously. These words would be true in case of Luke that was more powerful than Anakin (he defeated Vader with little training - this means something) I must agree EU is indeed full of internal contradictions but still all EU is canon. Wrong. Cultural style or philosphical thought can degenerate. China stood for thousands years and styles/ arts were falling and growing in their own rhytm - in Europe civilization stands today since renaissance (unless you call middle ages civilized) and we witness - despite stability and richness - utter fall of architecture (compare today glass crap blocks with solid renaissance palaces) painting (compare sh..t you have in galleries with da vinci - no one can today draw like old masters) and so on. Lightsaber arts have fallen becouse Sith died on Ruusan and thus ended era of sith wars - instead jedi faced blaster armed scums and armies. There was no need in further continuation of old styles, jedi developed new ones to deal with force-blind enemies.

This is some fansite, nothing official. This guy probably composed list of most powerful knights acc to his own personal taste (Fisto sucks BTW). And as I know there wasn't any midichlorian chart by now. Faster Fearless I don't have all day to wait for your arguments.

That is why Neverwinter Nights are better. You'll also have three parts and 2 expansions for every part. I say they should release expansion in august 2004, then KOTOR 2 in 2006-2007 and KOTOR 3 in 2009

Not quite. We know that every art and culture has it's growths and falls that are convertible.

What "valid sources"? all you did was talking about gillard. This is a valid source? I don't understand your comment. I just think that discussing with someone who doesn't even confront my argumentation and repeats all the time the same is pointless. And being sarcastic doesn't change anything . Very well, let's start with your attack on my looong post that you've ignored (that was the reason for my withdrawal) and destroy my arguments step by step like I did with yours, instead of repeating yourself endlessly. Yes "valid sources" hahaha. Anakin in EII said that he's better than yoda, but his opinion doesn't matter. Now you're lying. Official EU states so. This is as official as 7 forms. Unless you're to dumb to understand this The only bunch of crap is you, if you're so unintelligent to ignore Lucasfilm official document about EU that I'm afraid makes forms, and all stuff canon.

Redemption is a conclusion to whole series. There isn't much action there, only problem of price you must pay for your crimes. It is similar to Shatterpoint (psychological and emotional problems of one fallen jedi) Art is unchallenged and shines like a star. Even Duursema isn't that good. I suggest you begin with Golden Age of Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire. These are first parts of series. Regards

Here's the info on master Thon taken from CUSWE: "an alien known to the Old Republic as a Wharl (or Tchuukthai), Thon was in reality a sentient being who chose to keep his species and his culture a well-guarded secret. Thon trained in the ways of the Force, and eventually became a Jedi Master. He was assigned as the watchman of the Stenness System, and was living and training on Ambria just prior to the Great Sith War. When he first came to Ambria, the Dark Side of the Force was prevalent on the planet. Master Thon pushed the Dark Side back, forcing it into Lake Natth. His experiences on Ambria taught him of the virtue of the Light Side, and he tried to convince other Jedi Masters about the dangers of the Krath. He was supposed to have continued the Jedi training of Andur Sunrider, but Andur's death changed those plans. Instead, Thon became the teacher of Andur's wife, Nomi. Her stubbornness was broken when Thon was attacked by Bogga the Hutt. In the battle, Thon gave his lightsaber to Nomi, and she used it with unusual skill for an untrained Jedi candidate. Thon realized that Nomi was the special Jedi he was prophecied to train, and took her under his tutelage. Later, he was part of the assembly of Jedi Masters who met on Deneba to discuss the Krath uprising in the Empress Teta system" I think that creators wanted to show galaxy as a really exotic place where humans were struggling for position among other races, not being dominant specie like 4000 years later. Personally I rate Sith War pretty low for a TOTJ standards. Dark Lords of the Sith and Redemption are better 100 times. Carrasco's art is worse than Gossett's and we really don't see much war here (although Exar's trip to the senate is cool).

You are using the same arguments as always. Thank you this discussion is over as I've said, seeing how you are ignoring my arguments completely and repeating the same, the same, the same... as I was expecting earlier talking to you is like talking to a rock or a tree. Pointless. Continue to believe in your hoax if you want.

And I hope she'll be free, so I could seduce her again.

Wrrr :angry:

Do you have any mp3 samples with those guys so we could hear them?

I think that Gallo as usual will make references to TOTJ and maybe throw some ideas from "Tales of the Jedi Companion" (like in KOTOR with Czerka Corporation) We'll see what ideas Karpyshyn and Hand will bring in their upcoming hardcovers.

This is your personal opinion only. 7 forms are EU integral part therefore we can discuss them. And what Gillard said isn't important. EU says that forms exist and that second one is oldest and was in use during massive battles between jedi-sith. During the sith wars. I believe EU not Gillard. Here we discuss EU problems so if you don't accept that part of EU don't discuss at all. Game must create perfect interactive environment for the players. Nobody cares for realistic presentation of lightsaber forms. Windu in console Clone Wars also uses something that for sure isn't vapaad. Yet official info presents him as vapaad master. Bastila uses form II and jesus man accept this fact! Second form was used in the time of sith wars - in bastila's times. Bastila uses it, Malak uses it and Revan uses it. I'm sorry but is it so difficult to understand that we discuss about KOTOR and lightsaber forms that are EU? Gillard has nothing to do with this. And stop trashing this thread with gillard, gillard, gillard... sigh...I just can't stand your lack of logic BASTILA USES FORM II BECOUSE IN HER TIMES THAT WAS THE ONLY DOMINANT FORM and I'm not going to repeat this endlessly. The fact that devs didn't have time to show it properly (like many other things) doesn't mean that. Nick, nick, nick...man stop that OK? To me Stover and his vapaad description is more important that your nick. I accept the truth about seven forms that EU states and I don't care about your nick. Here we discuss EU (KOTOR, TSL, TOTJ, 7 FORMS this is all EU) and if you don't accept forms just go spread your gospel elsewhere. Do I really have to remind you that offical statement said clearly that all books, games, comics, rpg scenarios thus ideas that they contain, are CANON and if Gillard said it isn't canon he LIES becouse he contradicts official EU document. Seven Forms are same Canon as KOTOR, Thrawn Trilogy and many other things. Not quite. Devs during KOTOR production didn't have time to fill it with all details and so they made same lightsaber moves as in JA and JO. Lightsaber combat in KOTOR is very simple and reduced to few moves only. The fact that devs didn;t have time doesn't mean that 4000 years ago people weren't using second form becouse they were: it was the only known form aside of basic first one and Bastila was using it-what other form Bastila should use if second was dominant? And prequels are full of mistakes and bugs and weak dialogs, I love them but movie will never give you so complex picture as book, so prequel arguiment is as weak as game argument. Game and movie are supposed to be played and watched. Action must be fast and details must be reduced to absolute minimum. Books means more to me and present wider picture of star wars universe. your argument ignores all knowledge we have on Bastila- Anakin: character, maturity, emotion control, differences in lightsaber form and time distance. Anakin would be a weakling 4000 years ago. He was a jerk in prequels who couldn't handle geonosians in factory, couldn't kill 80 year old man, lost his hand, lost with obi-wan and all canon rather portraits Anakin as a loser. To me discussion with you ends. I don't really care what else you'll say about forms non-existence or about other things. You shouldn't participate in this discussion becouse you don't accept EU. And KOTOR and forms are pure EU. So I don't understand what you're doing in this thread really.

I think that seven forms are a great thing and if Gillard couldn't show them in the movies it's his problem. But Shatterpoint wouldn't be the same without Vapaad. And here we discuss EU problems mostly so I guess that we can discuss heretical forms as well.

Here is my list of favourite star wars novels (you can use it if you want): Darth Maul - Saboteur by James Luceno Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter by Michael Reaves Rogue Planet by Greg Bear The Approaching Storm by Alan Dean Foster Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover The Cestus Deception by Steven Barnes The Han Solo Adventures by Brian Daley Splinter of the Mind's Eye by Alan Dean Foster Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina: edited by Kevin J. Anderson Tales of the Bounty Hunters: edited by Kevin J. Anderson Tales from Jabba's Palace: edited by Kevin J. Anderson Dark Forces - Soldier for the Empire: William C. Dietz & Dean Williams Dark Forces - Rebel Agent: William C. Dietz & Ezra Tucker Dark Forces - Jedi Knight: William C. Dietz & Dave Dorman The Truce At Bakura by Kathy Tyers The Courtship of Princess Leia by Dave Wolverton The Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn The Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson Darksaber by Kevin J. Anderson The Hand of Thrawn Duology by Timothy Zahn Vector Prime by R.A. Salvatore Dark Tide II - Ruin by Michael A. Stackpole Agents of Chaos I - Hero's Trial by James Luceno Edge of Victory by Greg Keyes Dark Journey by Elaine Cunningham Destiny's Way by Walter Jon Williams Force Heretic I -Remnant by Sean Williams and Shane Dix Force Heretic II - Refugee by Sean Williams and Shane Dix The Final Prophecy by Greg Keyes The Unifying Force by James Luceno and briliant short stories from SW Insider: "Elusion Illusion" by Michael Stackpole, "The Pengalan Tradeoff" by Aaron Allston, "Bane of the Sith" by Kevin Anderson!

Good start.

Traitor is good but I can't stand Coruscant transformation that Stover described. This is the most stupid thing EU has ever produced...although I love last scene when Ganner suddenly became fearless warrior and Vergere tricked Nom Anor Although NJO is mostly EU graveyard I'm far more concerned with postNJO series. What these guys are going to write about? This will be tragedy

Not quite, thet could release expansion with 2-3 new planets when you solve subquests joined in additional campaign - war was wide and on many fronts people struggled with sith I think that they would surely invent good sub-story. There is one fragment in the game when you can implant additional campaign: when carth wants to go elsewhere and Bastila to Dantooine. This is a perfect start for a sub-campaign. Besides starforge storyline shouldn't limit anything. In pen and paper RPG additional sub campaigns aren't nothing new. Personally I was bored totally with repeating NWN scheme. Expansion would transform KOTOR's somehow unperfect storyline into something more interesting.

Ehhh looks like the original topic was killed by Laozi. So I admit , that I remember all details from Thrawn and JA trilogies and from Shatterpoint (best sw novel ever), Edge of victory, Approaching storm, Courtship of Princess Leia and other favourites too. GOA isn't the only star wars literature geek here... BTW: comparing mass popular novels like SW series with instant classics like Anna Karenina is unthinkable.