Boeroer

If you want to attack with no recovery in order to steal a lot of duration you could also duplicate Spelltongue with the Helwax Mold and dual wield it. With Alacrity and dual wielding you'll already have 0 recovery with no armor. With gauntlets, Durgan steel and Spelltongue's speed stealing you can easily reach 0 recovery with weapon attacks in full plate and even use Vulnerable Attack with no speed loss. Immunity to fear is easily achieved with 2 lore and a scroll of prayer against fear. A wizard usually has a lot of options to lower deflection - I don't think he needs Outmaneuvering. So I don't find Steadfast to be a really good choice. Little Saviour is always nice.

There is a big misconception about the expansions: they are not meant to be played after the main quest. They expand the main game, they are not adding a new closed story line like BG, NwN or ID used to. So you can always go back and forth throughout the main quest line. Once you jump into the pit on Burial Isle there is no turning back and no chance for expansion any more. Everybody struggles at Crägholt Bluffs with lvl 9. Lvl 9 is a good level for entering the White March/Stalwart - but Crägholt is high level content which becomes doable with lvl 13 or so (strongly depends on difficulty and player proficiency and meta knowledge). Don't be frustrated when you get obliterated at lvl 9 - everybody does.

Yes. DEX reduces the casting animation as well as the recovery time. It's bonus gets applied to recovery AFTER the other bonuses to recovery got calculated. Speed bonuses/malus to recovery that also work with casting are (universal recovery bonuses): - Alacrity of Deleterious Motion: 50% OR - Frenzy: 33% (no stacking with Alacrity) OR - Swift Aim: 20% (no stacking) OR - Swift Strikes: 25% (not 100% sure it works with spells, might be melee only, no stacking) OR - Time Parasite: 50% (no stacking) OR - Their Champion braved the Horde alone: 40% (no stacking) - Bloodlust: 20% (stacks) - Blood Thirst: 0 recovery after kill - Anitlei: 10%, (stacks) - Spelltongue's stolen attack speed: 15% - Gauntlets of Swift Action: 15% - Potion of Power: 25%, (no stacking) - Svef: 15% (no stacking I guess) - armor penalty (-x%) - Cautious Attack (-20% ?) - Penetrating Shot (-20% ?) That's all I can shake out of my sleeve right now. Attack bonus speed on weapons only works on that weapon's attack. Thus, speed enchantment on weapons/shields and Durgan Steel only work with attacks with the enchanted weapon. Durgan reinforcement on armor (-15% recovery malus) however helps when casting. So you could use Frenzy with Bloodlust and Spelltongue and Gauntlets on a barb to speed up casting. Or Alacrity and Spelltongue and Gauntlets on a wizard. After calculating the recovery DEX further influences it. Funnily I think a barb could be the fastest caster there is. Too bad he lacks a lot of spells.

Great, happy to hear it works for you.

Monk (normal build) + Moon Godlike is a perfect synergy of class and race. It makes early game a lot easier and is still nice later on. Heavy armor in the early game also makes a monk's live a lot easier. For monk beginners it's def. the best pick. As is high MIG and INT. Torment's Reach + Force of Anguish are a lot of fun. Veteran's Recovery as soon as possible. Shod in Faith as soon as possible. Then you'll have the perfect mix of tankyness and damage. Have a look at the monk's builds in the list. They are very different but all three (I guess) are very nice to play with their own unique style. Monks usually need a lot of micromanagement to get the most out of them.

ROFL for "crit happens".

Yes - but it doesn't matter which defense gets targeted. If you receive a crit from the dragon's fear aura but are immune (scroll or steadfast or whatever) it still triggers Frenzy.

Yeah sure. I just thought because QuiteGoneJin initially said he wanted a backstabbing rogue with lots of maneuverability options and stuff my suggestions should evolve around those things. If we put backstabs and positioning aside then I also would use a very similar approach as you. Just more INT and lower DEX - but all of the special attacks like Crippling Strike and such because of the full attacks. Played the Devil like this with Godansthunyr and also Bittercut (both have two damage types instead of one) and the Barricade as well as Aspirant's Mark and it worked really well. Also took Pen. Shot for an opening volley with a Blunderbuss and for the Barricade's Thrust. But back then the crit-bash triggered ToTV twice - don't know if it's still effective enough compared to a normal shield.

That you don't like monks gives me serious doubts about your definition of fun. What makes a melee build fun for you? Rogues are a very tricky melee class. I never found them to be a source of great fun (with some exceptions). Barbs and monks are my source of fun in melee.

Badgradr's Barricade is inside Durgan's Battery and has 10% reflection against ranged attacks and bash. When you crit with bash it procs Thrust of Tattered Veils (unlimited times per encounter). It's a medium shield. Also note that Starcaller comes quite late. Funny... my approach for a tanky backstab rogue would be totally different - although I like the combination of starcaller, flanking and low INT. Your version is tanky but not useable for backstabs any more. But maybe QuiteGonJin doesn't want that any more anyways. I guess with constant Deathblows through flanking and stunning Vulnerable Attack is a waste by the way. But what else to take with low INT...? A good alternative might be Penetrating Shots: it works with Thrust oTT and doesn't slow you down in melee.

You could have used the Cloak of the Frozen Hunt instead. It's only +6 but still...

You mean "the other human watcher" I guess?

As Loren pointed out you only have to command the backstabbing from stealth. It doesn't matter if you get detected on the way to the target you want to backstab. So you can do it even with a low stealth score.

I would neither take Savage Attack nor Vulnerable Attach for a backstabbing rogue. Both don't increase your damage a lot compared to Sneak, Deathblows and Backstab. I would use Fast Runner and/or Graceful Retreat instead so I can get away without getting punished and without using Escape - leavin that for diving in with +25 deflection instead of diving out. Deflection against diseng. attacks would be at +57. Maybe enough to make even Riposte worthwhile (strike back while disengaging). Persistent Distraction only works if you trigger the flanking affliction - it can be good if you flank and makes fleeing easier - you don't need the fuzz I talked about then. But it doesn't work if you want to reach the back line on your own, destroy a caster quickly and retreat. But when flanking a lot it's def. a good pick - esp. if you run very fast because then you can eat a lot of diseng. attacks very quickly without noticing and *bam* you're dead. Smoke Cloud may be a great way to flee, too. *Pouf* and engagement is gone. I also think that a more defensive build with Vet. Recovery and Sup. Deflection is better than using the perfect glass cannon... who kisses the ground all the time. I still think for a hit and run approach Envenomed Strike and Deep Wounds are great picks - maybe even Runner's Wounding Shot (also works for melee). You can leave after a hefty backstab and the target will still die after some secs while you target the next. Using a scroll of Binding Web with a stab helm also seems to be a great way to kill stuck enemies while zipping around like a ball lightning.

Fair enough.

If your knowledge of the contents is not too good (which encounter comes next, what damage types are blights most vulnerable to, what damage type do trolls use and so on) it is pretty hard. When you have good meta gaming knowledge it becomes a lot easier.

You will receive a letter from your steward in Caed Nua that opens the quest line for WM. But it will be too easy for you at first because WM is meant to be played during the main campain. It's not a separate game like in BG or so. It's nicely embedded into the main game and you can go back and forth as you like. A good entering level is 8 or 9. I started a new game for it but of course you can do it with your high lvl. party as well.

@Climhazzard: I think you may have a misconception about Hold the Line and engagement there. Engagement alone doesn't encourage enemies to attack you - only indirectly if they can't reach another target without disengaging because if they leave they could get punished a bit. But if you're not alone on the front line no enemy will turn towards you only because you engage him. But maybe you meant that. I never had problems getting wounds though. The monk's deflecrion usually is not too high. Same with his DR. Most enemies like to attack him if he is first in line. So for me Hold the Line would be a waste. But if it works better for you with it then why not? Taking Veteran's Recovery is good advice. Another thing is Moon Godlike. Especially in the early game when it's hardest the healing of Silver Tide helps a lot. Silver Tide plus monk is a great combo and is also a good RP choice for the White March II. About the rogue: the theme was "hit and run", not "hit and die". As long as your rogue is too squishy to survive direct melee confrontation you can always play him as a ranged rogue. In the early game they are way squishier than later on when they have some nice abilities and equipment. Shooting from afar with a bow - for example Borresaine which also stuns on crit or with an arbalest in the very early game - is a nice way for a "planned melee" rogue to contribute. And there's also no rule that forbids you to give a rogue Veteran's Recovery and a thick armor. Actually, with high MIG, INT, Veteran's Rwcovery and a fat armor he can hold his ground long enough. But getting surrounded is bad. So engaging with tanks first is mandatory for a normal rogue. He can shoot an alpha strike from a gun and then start to move towards a single standing foe (usually an archer or caster). You can use Escape to phase towards enemies. This also gives you +25 deflection. But if you want to backstab you have to get near. So either you have to be more patient at the start of an encounter or you make him more tanky with self healing and even more deflection until you get things like Shadowing Beyond and a weapon which causes stun or prone on crit. This helps a lot with survivability. The other good option is so disable foes with a wizard or druid or cipher before sending in the rogue and when he gets targeted.

@DreamWayfarer & QuiteGoneJin: That's a good way. Going in with your rogue alone usually leads to the knockout of the rogue because after backstabbing and unstealthing as the only person in sight he will be attacked by everyone. That includes archers and casters - you can't escape them like you can escape melee opponents. So sending in your sturdy distraction forces first is a good thing like DreamWayfarer suggested. @Loren Tyr: about Nov. Suffering: I guessed so. But since Backstab is so different I thought maybe it's an exception. Sadly not. Thanks for clearing that up. And the stuff about backstab, too. @Phenomenum: yeah, this is a civilized, cosy subforum with great people.

You can reach 20 extra damage with Deep Wounds if your MIG and INT are high. But it doesn't stack with itself. But since high MIG and INT is also great for Envenomed Strike and high MIG for wounding and Runner's Wounding shot you can combine those and I wouldn't miss Deep Wounds then. It's perfect if you: - Meet high DR foes because- like the others I mentioned - it's raw damage. - Is nice to stack damage over time effects with one single blow - good for hit & retreat or ranged combat (shooting at multiple enemies - switching targets after one shot). - works with some AoE spells which also profit from high MIG and INT and then adds +20 raw damage to every AoE target, that's huge. - is not dependent on base weapon damage. So it's equally good on weapons with whimpy damage or weapons with high base damage. It also works with retaliation. Those are the cases when I use Deep Wounds. Of course it's terrible with low MIG and/or INT and also neglectible when you are a dual wielding windmill because it doesn't stack with itself.

Wow - long. But I liked it.

Spells for long lasting Deathblow setup in an AoE that come to mind: - Cipher: Phantom Foes - Wizard: Binding Web (wear items that make you immune to stuck like the stag helmet), Curse of Blackened Sight, Chillfog (use a Pale Elf with Crossed Patch as rogue) - Druid: Tanglefoot, Calling the World's Maw, Overwhelming Wave Phantom Foes is especially nice to also trigger the flanking damage bonus from survival and items like Glanfathan Stalking Boots and such. Also note that a rogue can do Deathblows with any spell from items or scrolls (NOT sneak attack) and Deep Wounds with any spell that does pierce, slash or crush damage, allowing him to do AoE Deathblows PLUS AoE Deep Wounds - for example with Overwhelming Wave (White Crest Armor), Twin Stones (scroll, Grey Sleeper), Bounding and Concussive Missiles (scroll), Vile Thorns (Bittercut) and more.

Yes. But those changes make a difference. It's like playing with a party which is a few levels lower than before. You feel it especially at the beginning. However - during Act II it also becomes pretty easy when your party composition is not totally messed up (like 6 rogues or stuff like that).

Thanks a lot. With autoattacks it was the first two hits after stealth lately. Don't know about special Full Attack abilities. They used to not trigger backstabs at all but maybe now they only trigger on the primary attack. I didn't test all that Backstab stuff lately (3.0+), only read about it here and there.

Actually backstab also works for the second hit when you attack out of stealth. A two hander is not bad, but sabres also work well. Tall Grass and Hours of St. Rumbalt are nice weapons to backstab, as is Tidefall. The first ones often cause prone with the backstab so you don't have to retreat all the time if the enemy was standing alone. Tall Grass has the advantage that you don't have to be very near and most of the time you are not engaged by the enemy yet because of that - allowing normal retreats without eating disengagement attacks. Hours of St. Rumbalt is annihilating, so if you crit you do more damage. Tidefall does wounding damage which is based on the damage you do before DR and also benefits from MIG. While you retreat the enemy will still get some damage from the wounding DoT. I don't know how special attacks like Blinding Strike work with bavkstab nowadays (a few patches ago they didn't trigger backstabs). If they work correctly now then with Hours oSR or Tall Grass you could set up Deathblows with one backstab: causing prone plus blind. The second hit would be Deathblows already which will likely kill most normal foes. Another nice weapon for Backstabs is Firebrand - but summoning it breaks stealth. So you would only be able to backstab with it if you summon it and then use invisibility to backstab. In general PoE punishes you when doing backstabs with fast, small weapons like daggers and stilettos. Since Backstab is a percentage based damage modifier and it's appliance is very limited and therefore doesn't profit from weapon speed, it works best with weapons which have very high base damage. It would have been better to add a flat damage bonus that scales in some way. Or give small, easy to hide weapons like daggers, stilettos and clubs a bonus or something like that. But like it is now, arquebuses and two handers and sabres seem to be your best choice. I didn't test backstabs with fists (Novice's Suffering). The damage calculation of Novice'Suffering is quite weird. It may be that only the whimpy base damage of unarmed will be taken into account instead the boosted one by Nov.Suff., so either they are the worst choice for backstabs or a good one. Loren Tyr...? Invisibility can be achieved in some ways, this enabling you to do more backstabs: - Shadowing Beyond ability - Cloak of the Master Mystic spell holding - Nightshroud's spell binding - Feign Death That's all I know of. But with this things you can do quite a lot of backstage in am encounter while also being untargetable and highly maneuverable. Since a backstab rogue usually has to get near and has a lot of damage mods, he doesn't necessarily need high MIG to do a lot of damage. But if you want to take also Deep Wounds and Envenomend Strike (which I recommend) you might want high MIG. He wants to have high INT as well because of longer invisibility, higher Deep Wounds and Env. strike damage. Also his afflictions like prone(Tall Grass and so on) blind, hobbled and stun last longer. He doesn't need too much DEX because he will not stand there and hit as fast as possible, but hit two times very hard and then vanish. But higher DEX is always good if you can afford it. It all depends what you want to do after delivering the backstab. If you want to retreat at once I would go Tall Grass, high MIG, INT, PER and normal CON, RES and DEX. If you want to kill at least that enemy and last as long as it takes to finish that job I would use quick switch, a weapon set with the backstab weapon (most likely a gun or HoSR) and one with weapon + shield plus fat armor and higher RES. Good additional abilities and talents to backstab (if they work correctly with it) could be: - Envenomed Strike: strike and retreat. With max MIG + INT + Tidefall + Deep Wounds + Envenomed Strike most normal enemies would die after you retreat. Lets time work for you. - Runner's Wounding Shot: like above, a bit weaker but same effect basically - Deep Wounds - Finishing Blow: if you already damaged the target severely but it's not dead yet and you want to make sure it does with the next strike. Usually I find the mechanics of it stupid - like Bloody Slaughter. But maybe here it works. - Shadowing Beyond: obvious - Shadow Step: but it canceles stealth I guess? - Feign Death: like a retreat, but you will get up with invisibility that lasts quite a bit and is not cancelled by you attacks. So long INT and fast hits are your friends (best thing would be quick switch + coil of resourcefulness and four weapon sets with guns - that would make four backstabs with deathblows possible in theory) - Fast Runner: not only fast movement ,but also bonus when disengaging - graceful retreat: staks with fast runner and any item with that bonus Items: - Boots of Speed - the weapons I spoke of - Nightshroud for the additional use of Shadowing beyond - Cape of Withdrawal or Night Runner: +15 defenses against disengagement attacks. With Fast Runner and Graceful Retreat you will have a bonus of +32 which will prevent crits when disengaging. With cape of the master mystic you will have +44 to deflection against diseng. attacks. That's quite awesome. If you still receive a crit you turn invisible, if not you don't get hurt a lot. And with the boots+fast runner you only will eat one diseng. attack most of the time. That's my 2.5 cents. Edit: it just came to my mind that arbalests with quick switch might also be great for backstabbing: high base damage and prone on crit while having no acc malus. Aedrin's Wrecker would even stun on crit.