Boeroer

Not strictly an affliction, but Strike Hard (war hammer) causes Disorienting which lowers all enemies' defenses by 5 and works well with stunning. It also has speed - which is neat. An that's a rhyme - which is no crime... *mic drop*

Stun will suppress prone. So the stun/prone combo isn't very effective. You might want to consider Shatterstar (=double crit damage) and Godanysthunyr in the offhand. With FoD you will crit with the offhand first, stunning the target and then follow up with a crit with enhanced damage. Shatterstar also has Guarding which is not bad for a paladin.

Yes, if you can hit a dragon properly it's usually easy to kill him with the right spells. If you are a priest you should cast Devotions and Inspiring Radiance after Minor Avatar so that you can get additional +30 stackable accuracy. Else you might graze a lot. A good approach against the Alpine Dragon is to use Confusion Scrolls and then do the damaging part. For all others paralyze works well.

There's no question that chars with strong offensive AoE abilites like Dragon Thrashed or Sacred Immolation will cause more dps than any single target char. It's because they hit so many foes at once. However, it can be of great use to quickly kill that one annoying enemy asap. Like the xaurip priest, the ogre druid, the adragan, the battery siren, the broodmother or whatever. Usually a good mixture is the best: take out high priority targets asap with a paladin, rogue, ranger, druid, monk or fighter and use AoE stuff to quickly get rid of the rest at the same time. Actually an offensive paladin can do both at the same time from lvl 13 on.

Yes, sure. Without doubt the Persistence guy would catch up once he gets superb or legendary (is legendary possible on Persistance? not sure atm). And wounding does a lot of additional damage. But on the other hand the Persistence guy had his bow very early (no surprise here) while the Stormcaller dude got his bow a lot later. Let's now move away from the superoptimized last 2% in the game for a second and look at the whole playthrough. Stormcaller can be upgraded fairly quickly and easily to superb - while superb and even legendary via enchantment comes pretty late. Don't you think that Stormcaller might be the better pick overall - I mean if you look at the whole picture, not just the last part of the game when everything is enchanted to the max? I always thought those two bows, while quite different, where equally good. Now I looked at those numbers and I was quite surprised. While Stormcaller (in the end) is slower, has lower crit damage, no lash and also lacks wounding - it has dual damage, +20% dmg, -6 DR and 20-30 base shock damage via Returning Storm every fifth to third shot. Edit: I just realized that without wounding Persistence's logged damage wil be the same like that of an ordinary hunting bow (with graze-to-hit conversion). So maybe it doesn't matter at all how early he got it.

Hehe. By the way: I just loaded up a savegame where I had two similar lvl 12 rangers. One with Persistence and one with Stormcaller. The latter got Stormcaller a lot later obviously but still did 40% more damage overall (char sheet - so without wounding damage(?) and pet damage). I didn't play them that differently and they almost have the same talents and abilites. Items are also not that spectacularly different. Surly Persistence does the highest single target dps with a high MIG ranger on paper, but maybe Stormcaller is not that far off and the better dps weapon overall? The damage of Relentless Storm and the -6 shock DR as well as the dual damage type seems to be as good as wounding, if not better (pet's Predator's Sense aside for now). You can have a proc chance of 19 (Twinned Arrows) up to 35% (+Driving Flight) with every shot. What do you guys think? Or how do you explain those numbers? Edit: oh wait - Stormcaller is already superb while Persistence only has exceptional, oops. But still...?

Thanks a lot. Very thoroughly done. We could add Driving Flight as well. In that case the ranger will outdamage the rogue all the time if there are enemies behind the initial target (20° arc). Stunning shots also works on them by the way. But of course that's not single target damage - but damage nonetheless. As I said, the rogue gains most of his awesome stuff earlier and that's an advantage. I only wanted to oppose the genral statement that a dw rogue will severely outdamage a ranger. This comparison doesn't take into account the movement that has to be done. Even if the pet has to move as well - the ranger doesn't. I think we can assume that the ranger can place one shot while melees are running from foe to foe.

High MIG, PER and INT. Disciplined Barrage works very well with all sorts of spells. I guess Confident Aim works as well. Spell-like abilities of the fighter are Into the Fray and Clear Out. Both don't actually use your weapon(s) and don't profit from Weapon Focus, Specialisation or Mastery. Equipment: - Sun-Touched Mail of Hyran Rath: 3 Sunbeams per rest or The White Crest Armor: 1 Overbearing Wave and 1 Dancing Bolts per rest - Amulet of Summer Solstice: 3 Sunbeams per rest or Shimmering Cloak: 3 Minoletta's Minor Missiles per rest - The Flames of Faîr Rhian: 3 Fireballs per rest (maybe duplicate that with the Helwax Mold) or Scath Gwannek: 3 Winter Winds per rest or Bittercut: 2 Vile Thorns and 1 Infestation of Maggots per rest or Badgradr's Barricade: unlimited Thrust of Tattered Veils on critical hit - Taluntain's Staff: 3 Fireballs per rest - Animancer's Boots: 3 Jolting Touch per rest - Munacra Arret: 3 Whisper of Treason per rest - Spirit Spiral: 3 Whisper of Treason per rest - Ring of Searing Flames: 3 Combusting Wounds per rest - Ring of Changing Heart: 2 Dominates per rest - Sentinel's Girdle: 1 Watchful Presence per Rest That way you will have a ton of spells. Some of those items you can get pretty early. As I said Disciplined Barrage works really well with all sorts of spells that do an attack roll. It's a fun concept and viable. Maybe don't take Acolyte's Radiance and Enigma's Charm: they are not that great. Just pick talents the fighter part can make good use of: Weapon Focus and stuff. Aspirant's Mark and Prestidigitator's Missiles are good. Although you might need Penetrating Shot to make the Missiles worthwhile after early game.

Sure. That would be better. Sadly crits only add a base damage bonus which in this case is 13,5 (sabre base) * 0.9 (with all the crit talents unlocked) = 12 more damage per hit. If we assume only 15% more crits via conversion (which is very generous to assume I think) that's only an increase of 13.5% base damage - equivalent of roughly 2 points of damage per hit without DR through conversion. Meh... Better bring Deep Wounds into the discussion.

What you personally do and don't do with a ranger is not important if you want to discuss max dps ranger vs. max dps rogue. I also don't argue that I never take Reckless Assault because it sounds funny and makes the rogue die more quickly und thus it shouldn't be part of this comparison. Because it's not expedient. The rogue also needs to pick talents like Two Weapon Style and such to develop his dps. There is no point in complaining about the ranger taking more talents - every char can pick the same amount of talents as abilities. ACC difference is not huge, it's only 10: Distant Advantage + Marksman + Stalker's Link - Twinned Arrows = +10 ACC (stacks with every ACC buff) Perma-stunned target: -30 deflection or the equivalent of +30 ACC Reckless Assault = +20 ACC (doesn't stack with general ACC buffs) Hit-to crit conversion of 30% (via Minor Threat and Dirty/Vicious Fighting) more than the ranger. With no misses, no grazes, 50% hits and 50% crits that's 15% more crits at maximum. This conversion doesn't crank up your crit rate by 30%.

Yes, while you played high lvl rangers and rogues a couple of times - and then provide us with some calculations, statistics and good examples... Sure - the enemies will have higher deflection. But your accuracy will grow, too. At the end of the game the difference between ACC to deflection gets bigger and bigger towards ACC. Crits are more common in the late game than in he early game. Grazes and misses are less likely. If the ranger can stun once it's perma-stun (no talk about dragons please). I would also argue that the pet will hold out longer than the "glass cannon" melee rogue you advertised. In case both go down the ranger still does decent damage on his own while the rogue does 0. But as I said: we should leave dying aside (which the rogue is an expert in) because it makes things even more complicated. So - as others also pointed out the accuracy and crit rate (Dirty/Vicious Fighting vs Stunning Shots) will be roughly the same. Damage of bow and dual wielding melee is comparable as my example above shows. The rogue is a bit better - if he's facing double-afflicted targets all the time and doesn't have to move a lot. Now the pet's damage and Driving Flight get added to the damage comparison - and you still want to stick to the statement that a melee dw rogue will severely outdamage a ranger? How does he do it?

Did you understand what I was posting above? Conversion gets less and less effective the higher your accuracy and therefore your natural crit rate is. Besides that: rangers start with 30 as do rogues. Rangers get Stalker's Link, rogues get Reckless Assault. The difference is 10 accuracy. Now the rogue gets conversion while the ranger and his pet will attack a perma-stunned target. Do you really think that the crit rate of both will be so much different? And that this will let the rogue severely outdamage the ranger and his pet?

Yes, neat.

It's hard to miss for the pet once the target is stunned and you have Stalker's Link... And if you take Persistence it's 100% Predator's Sense. Concerning "getting killed": let's leave this out of the discussion because then we'd also have to guesstimate how often the rogue gets knocked out. Furthermore we assume that there's two afflictions all the time so that the rogue can have his Deathblows for 100% of the fight. If this is the case for the ranger, too then it's very hard to miss even for a blind rascal as pet. Let's not forget that firkraag888 stated that a dual wielding rogue will "severely outdamage" a ranger. We first would have to convince him that Tidefall is the no. 1 dps choice... Dirty Fighting + Vicious Fighting do +20% hit to crit by the way, not 25%. Once you have a very high crit rate they are less powerful. If you have a hit/crit ratio of 50:50 and do 100 attacks (no misses, no grazes) then only 10 of your attacks will get converted. The more you crit the less this conversion will get triggered.

I would pick Skyrim. I don't like the limitations the Witcher has in terms of character development. The only thing I don't like about Skyrim is the stupid leveling system (you automatically get better at what you do). If you despise that then hands off!

I have. But it's hard to tell. As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess. You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike. Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way. But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits. I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.

Cadebald's Blackbow comes really late. Nice idea though, it's a beast. I would be even more interested in Kalakoth's Minor Blights + Driving Flight. I really hope that Corpse Eaters don't remove the bodies from the battlefield - because I wanted to try a Corpse Eater/White-Worms-necrophilic Chanter.

I liked Skyrim a lot when I was doing it "stealthy style" with a character focused on sneaking/backstabbing with bow and dagger and using illusions. It's a totally different game then and the gameplay isn't that "hectical" compared to the usual melee approach. Skyrim has the advantage (over Witcher) that you can create your own character (appearence). But it's a looong game if you want to see everything, like Max Quest said. What I also liked was Dragon Age: Origins (NOT Inquisition ). But of course that's a tad old now.

That's right. Even until the late game (when you get durgan steel) it's hard to beat. Because the cipher can disable the target easily most of the time he often deals crits. Crits with Firebrand (huge base damage + annihilation), Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver lead to ridiculous focus bursts (and damage of course). You can also crank it up with the follwing combo: Phantom Foes (causes flanked) + survial 12 (+20% damage against flanked) + similar item (+10% vs. flanked) and Appr. Sneak (+15% vs. flanked). This works very well with Firebrand's high base damage. Later with durgan steel and good enchantments/lash Hours of St. Rumbalt will give you the same or better dmg/focus. More crits and also higher speed... The prone on crit is not really needed but who wants to complain about that. But dual wielding is also nice. Also helps with the casting speed because your weapon recovery is wy shorter and thus you can start to cast powers sooner after a weapon attack. It makes a difference.

At the end of the game the ranger does more damage than a rogue (just a rough calculation against 0 DR with 20 MIG/DEX and 50/50 hit/crit): The Rain of Godhag Field: Base damage: 13‑20 (average 16,5 ) Stalker's Link: +20% base damage Apprentice's Sneak Attack: +15% base damage Legendary Enchantment: +55% base damage MIG 20: +30% base damage crits with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver: +90% base damage resulting hit damage: 36+9 lash, crit: 68+17 lash per arrow Twinned Arrows: hit: 45*2 = 90, crit: 85 * 2 =170 Driving Flight: I will leave this aside for now ~40 frames per attack with DEX 20 and 0 recovery in 500 frames you will deal 1125 hit damage or 2125 crit damage if hit/crit is 50:50 you will deal around 1625 damage against 0 DR on top come the pet and Driving Flight Dual Bittercut:Base damage: 11-16 (average 13,5 ) sharp: +20% base damage Spirit of Decay: +20% base damage Reckless Assault: +20% base damage Sneak Attack: +50% base damage Deathblows: +100% base damage Legendary Enchantment: +55% base damage MIG 20: +30% base damage crits with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver: +90% base damage resulting physical hit damage: 53 + 16 lash , crit: 65 + 20 lash per swing ~23 frames per attack with DEX 20 and 0 recovery in 500 frames you will deal 1518 hit damage or 1870 crit damage if hit/crit is 50:50 you will deal 1694 damage against 0 DR You see that the damage output is nearly the same without Driving Flight and without the pet's damage. I assumed that the ranger only has a 25% lash and the rogue a 30% lash by the way. This calculation is already in favour of the rogue because I assumed that there are always two afflictions on the target. I assumed that he can attack without pause/without moving, too. I left aside armor penalties and DR just to show the direction this is going. So one can safely assume further that the ranger is the better damage dealer once he has Stunning Shots, Driving Flight and Twinned Arrows. But the advantage of the dual wielding rogue over a bow ranger is that he starts with Sneak Attack and higher attack speed - also and gets Deathblows at lvl 11. While the best abilites of the (bow) ranger come at lvl 7, 11 and 13. So for a good part of the game the rogue will be able to deal a bit more dps if things run smoothly (affliction setup, not getting knocked out and so on). However my point was to show that the general statement is not true. I like rogues over rangers by the way. But that doesn't influence their performance.

Yes - potions of recovery are really useful. Especially solo they saved my butt several times against those pesky Andragans and Lagufaeth. I have to admit that I only use food, drugs and potions when soloing.

Why not take the wolf? I know his base damage and thought I can compare the expected results with the numbers I receive when testing. But after 20/20 crits there was no difference. Even without knowing the base damage it's obvious that something didn't work properly - but maybe it was just a one time glitch, don't know. As can be guessed from my previous comments about kith/non-kith enemies I don't think anymore that it's multiplicative (that was only my guessing after my experiences with the belt on some builds). But what I wanted to point out is that it can still be better (for certain characters) than a Blunting Belt and a Belt of +3 CON. And I don't think I stand corrected (yet). You said that one shouldn't bother with that belt (generally). I still can't see why. Sure: for a character with good defenses it's definitely crap. But there are certain characters and also enough situations where it saves you more endurance than the other two variants.

Hehe - you have to wait for dual Bittercuts with durgan steel and take Merciless Hand. If you didn't do that the damage of FoD isn't that "monster".

The Alpine Dragon is immune to paralyze...

Eh? What has this to do with Flames of Devotion? I meant you will have altering defenses pre combat and even during combat.