Elric Galad

Yeah that's their main problem indeed. Some of them have redeeming features (Wisp's AoE interrupt, Ogre Sweaping attack that they can use an infinite number of time and scale independantly from their weapons, Dragons' AoEs or Spiritual Ally infinite cast of healing ability) but their auto-attacks are super bad. And most Chanter and Druid summons have this problem. On the other hand Ancient Weapons are among the best ability of the game, Druid's Primordial are top tier damage sponge (one can even cast "free" insect Plague) and Wizard and Monk summons are pretty good. I was just reacting to a previous statement that declared that all summons are weak. Difference is that Summons last longer and a great number of foes are immune to Charm. Also a charmed foe which hits a single friendly fire attack gets un-charmed. But yeah, when everything goes well, you're right.

Yep, but that's a bit the same point : you consider summons weak, not because you compare them to the cheesiest strat of the game, but because you compare them to the second cheesiest strat of the game. Granted that these strats are totally ok for (solo) play, but not to evaluate the power of a given ability. That said, we have different Impression about BG summon Vs PoE summon but that's another story.

In this case, I'm the worst category of extremist. I don't use it myself and in addition I've disabled it for the upcoming version of my mod (SoF & Oooblit & Gambeson won't apply anymore their extension effect to already active buff). More seriously, I don't play Solo and my mod isn't balanced for it, granted that solo play is a lot about using cheese and the mod is basically hunting down the cheese. I'm not even sure one can complete Solo without cheesing (SoT...) or without using the most broken subclasses (Bloodmage and Tactician, I'm looking at you). I would presume Solo is much harder with the nerf component of my mod (even with Potion of Enlightment https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/501 which was designed to allow long fight for non-infinite ressources classes). I don't like cheese, because they are not as epic as regular synergies. But Solo play is special in that one has basically to survive in order to get the levels/equipement that allows to break the game just enough to move to the next step of the run. It sounds like a survival where meta is paramount (especially of one want to go with some of the God Challenge). Not my cup of tea but I see why cheesing could be "legit" in this context. That's why it's normal to tell other about it (and @Raven Darkholmedescribed it as a cheese in the thread). My only grip about SoF is maybe when @Raven Darkholme tells me that summons are weak. Huh ? Compared to what ? Brilliant + SoT + BDD + Blade Cascade ? SoF abuse ? Then for sure, but I don't consider these legit (and I've modded out all of these). So when evaluating the power of a specific build, SoF should probably not be used as a metric.

I think it's hard not to mention it, especially for Solo Play. Strand of favor is the new BDD + SoT + Brilliant. It's really the mother of all cheese, nowadays.

I finally went with Courageous until end of combat when Providence kicks in. Note that it is more intended as a SC Paladin buff than a Providence buff (which wasn't strictly necessary). I wanted the class to have some sort of long lasting ressource outside of Divine Retribution "abuse". Also Courageous, even as a Tier 3 inspiration isn't so strong for a Paladin who doesn't have long casting ability. But it is rare, and fluff-y for a Paladin. I've eventually changed significantly the whole Sacred Immolation line. The main issue with this ability for me isn't the self-damages (you can work around) but the Zeal cost compared to the benefit you get from it. I compared Sacred Immolation to Symbols which are only a Tier above (and certainly good spells) : Symbols have 2 less PEN but deals significantly higher damages, with longer duration and secondary effects (which only upgraded Sacred Immolation get). And obviously they come without self-damages. Symbols aren't strictly Point Blank but have a cast time (which is a big plus for Sacred Immolation). I tend to consider Tier 8 spells as around 3 martial ressources. Sacred immolation is in the same range but inferior. Sacred Immolation would worth around 2,5 martial ressources as a spell if they didn't have self damages. With it I think it's reasonable to put it at 2 zeal. Sacred Immolation "cost" is basicaly whatever zeals it takes plus self-damages, which advocate for a reasonable zeal cost. (I cancelled the reduction of self damages that I implemented in 1.0 though). Basically you want to use it as soon as you have health to spare (which happens as a tank). Upgrades would worth a bit more, but they are Tier IX (and Tier IX ability point are precious) and restricted to SC Paladins which I want to promote. Also Sacred Immolation can't be recast while still active, which prevent some level of spamming, even with a reduced cost. Finally, I specifcally rised Sacred Sacrifice damages AND self damages to 1,25 the value of the unupgraded version so it has some use even when not used for self rez. Divine Immolation should still be the go to upgrade since the benefit are easier to get. With these changes and the previous one to Hastening Exhortations, I think SC paladins will worth a try, even when not used as a Beckoner's best friend.

It is quite easy to fix anyway. Just did it for Sacred Sacrifice (this one is mandatory for consistency with unupgraded version). I don't think I'm going to change for Frenzy or DoAM, but it's technically feasible.

Sacred Sacrifice self damages duration isn't reduced by Resolve, contrary to Divine Immolation and unupgraded Sacred Immolation. The Gamedata file parameters seem correct so it is probably a hard coded bug when an ability mix beneficial and hostile effect to self in addition to its main attack. For example, I do not record Berserker self damages to be reduced by Resolve either. But in this case, it is applied to the whole line of ability rather than to a poor innocent upgrade...

[–]ElricGalad 2 points il y a 7 heures Yep, only way to do that is through AoE special attack such as Clear Out, Heart of Fury or Whirling Strikes As you can see on the reddit thread, you don't have too. Except if you want to upvote the post

OK, for net version, I'm proud to announce that Strand of Favor (and similar items) exploit will be gone. The duration etension will only apply to effect happening after equipping. Altough I have some philosophical concern about why to mod this. If people don't like the exploit, they can simply not use it. It's different from an overpowered ability that you don't want to use because OP, which lead to sadly ignoring it entirely. I guess I wanted to propose a "legit package". I have some plan for SC Paladin. Currently, their main asset is the kind of infinite zeal they can get from Divine Retribution. They have nice new abilities but nothing really game changing. I think I'm going to buff Hastening's Exho upgrades duration (not the unupgraded version which is available to MC). So it will be 25s of Swift and 25s of Nimble/strong for 1 zeal (taking into account my precedent changes). Also, I'm leaning to add to Providence an effect that gives +10% damages (stackable 3 times) for the rest of battle when knocked out (not only applied to auto-rez knocked out so it has better interaction with Sacred Sacrifice and indirectly promote its use. EDIT : this part is not feasible). I think it will fit very well Paladin fluff. I'm also leaning to rise a bit the damages (both to foes and self) of Sacred Sacrifice (by a factor x1.2) so it has some use when not used near death. It costs a very precious Tier 9 ability point so being very situational compared to Divine Immolation. Even with this change, Divine Immolation would stay the better ability in the general case, but with a smaller margin. Rising damages to self promotes a bit suicidal paladins

Not me, I swear !

For Body Blows ? Well, I haven't time to test but it's weird to read a consensus about something I assumed to be wrong.

Well that is weird. Someone on Reddit explicitly mentions it, but I don't remember anyone ever stating it on this forum. I guess I will have to actually check in game. If it is true, how could we miss it ?

Oh, Never realized that : https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/nmxjtt/how_did_i_not_know_carnage_applies_onhit_effects/ Marauder seems to be a very good candidate for building around it (Strike the Bell line shouldn't work but still)

I guess it depends if there is an actual attack.

Thank you ! Exactly I haven't noticed any discrepancy between damages actually done and damages recovered, so all modifiers are taken into account. By the way, apparently, Unbending has no effect Vs DoT (I guess Pulsating spells do work).

This was wrong. Unbendin does benefit from "healing received", but not from "healing done" For some reasons I thouht Mercy and Kindness chant buffed healing received, but it buffs healing done which does not benefit to Unbending. "healing done" modifiers, positive and negative, alter Unbendin.

Well Ultimate is a very specific experience anyway. Like how may subclasses were able to complete ? 5 ? 6 ? And it relies heavily on various cheese. I personally find some of the summons to be among the very best abilities, mixing offensive and defensive properties. But once again I'm not familiar with the most extreme way of playing. I cap at Party PotD. Dorudugan is again a special case. About 2/3 of abilities are useless vs him. Summons still being relevant as fodders is still better than what most abilities can do in this fight. I had a very good experience with Monk's Twins Vs Hauna O Whe. The simple fact that they deal Fire and Ice damages enabled each one of them to compete with my party's Auto Attacker.

"better" in this case becomes subjective. DnD has tons of spells, many are super situationnal or work only at low level. But is it bad ? Sometimes it's funny to spam Sleep spell at low level and look for something else later on. The design goal of PoE seems to be that all abilities should stay relevant, at least situationnally. I think it's great, more modern, but "better" is maybe an overstatement. Yeah that's why I say the system is better. The implementation was basically cut half-way. I tend to be very biased because I implemented "the other half" in a fitting fashion for my own taste

Balanced is different from being equal to actual creature stats. Animate Dead, Mordenkainen Swords and Planetars/Devas/Elemental Princes are basically the only summons worth using on BG Endgame. I wouldn't call it best summon system. Actually PoE is much better in my opinion.

My own opinion is that in basically every game summons tend to be complicated to balance and are complex spells overall. Most games just to have the budget or time to make things clean and just drop creatures on your summoner face without second thought Deadfire did better by implementing level scaling, but not applied to weapons. Too bad because they already had the ruleset to do so. Consider some example of what I've been through to make summons clean : - One of Eoathas Incarnate trio had an infinite recovery, so can act only once - Berath Pallid Knight has a mundane sword - Dragon with a bottomless pit of HP but less armor than a drake - Ultimate druid summon is basically a pet with big stats. They haven't been tested properly, so balancing them was out of reach ! Not enough time and budget, and too complicated to think about to be on top of the mind of a priority-driven game designer. So yes, it is an oversight, even a classical one (think about how poorly balanced summons were in BG), but the strangest thing in PoE is that it was left middle of the road, not totally forgotten. What makes things worse in Deadfire are : - The penetration system, which makes early game summons obsolete except as fodders - limit to 1 summon. Even classical casters can't ad a Tier 2 summon to support their Tier 7 ones. - For chanter : common ressource pool. Summoning the wurm spend precious points necessary to cast Ancient Weapons.

Pet's weapons have fixed base damages. They scale with character level similarly to summoned weapons. They also benefit from various ranger talents.

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/438 The Summon package of this mod basically implement it, just in case you could be interested.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/114591-mechanics-the-summoners-tables/ Basically yes, they level up but for their weapons it depends : for some summons, yes, for other (like wurms) no.

After checking, Watchful Presence does not work like that. If you go directly from bloodied to knockdown without being Near Death, the knockdown happens.

And also with Whisper of the Endless Paths + Various rogue special attacks