Elric Galad

Please share your MC Kangaroos / potatoes build

The thread tackles a complicated topic because we are basically comparing potatoes and kangaroos. My own problem is that I try to balance abilities between classes and I need to understand how powerful an ability that costs 3 wounds should be. Should it be as strong as a 1 discipline ? 2 disciplines ? etc... outside of this question, it is not very useful to compare them because of very different system indeed. The true question is more : how strong an ability costing X potatoes or Y kangaroos should be so you are unsatisfied/satisfied/feel it is a bit broken for its cost. And to give a number to the "how strong", I use the "martial ressource" currency. (Which may be flawed because high-cost martial abilities are often over-costed ...). So : An ability costing X potatoes should be as strong as a martial ability costing n ressources. An ability costing Y kangaroos should be as strong as a martial ability costing m ressources. By the way kangaroo meat is delicious with potatoes (and kangaroos release less CO2).

The thing is that, for casters, the Tier of an ability is correlated with the ressource it costs. There can be a Tier 9 fighter ability that costs 1, but all Tier 9 Wizard ability are going to cost you a Tier 9 cast. So you usually want all spells of the same Tier to have equivalent level of power. I agree that they probably considered uses/encounter for martial ability, which resulted in overcosted abilities. Taking as few active as possible (with just a bit of versatibility) and as much passive as possible is kind of optimal. Which results in a much more dire need of balanced for the 8 classes that share common pool of ressource. Barbarian is such an extreme case where basically everything is overcosted bar Frenzy and Shouts that are so so cheap for what they do when double upgraded 😉

And to a lesser extent high Resolve too, which doesn't help. Rust is utterly useless vs Dorudugan.

Base duration is 15s though. The issue is that it targets Fortitude, Fortitude is usually quite high, so I guess it grazes often. Well, Morningstar modal is your friend, I suppose.

This thread is widely based on the data from [MECHANICS] Power level compilation thread from @thelee, but I aimed to deal with specific cases that diverge from general rules, and possibly discuss about how to correct the most annoying exceptions. Basically, there are 4 kinds of scaling : A - Scaling from weapon quality (Unarmed Scaling is close enough to belong here, even if it has a couple differences). +1 PEN, +15% additive damages and about +4 Acc per quality level. B - PL scaling from Weapon Attack Abilities such as Rogue Strikes. 5% multiplicative damages and duration for each PL above Ability Tier. C - Intrinsic non Weapon Attack Ability Scaling, purely based on Ability Tier. For Each Tier above 1, the ability gets +2 Acc and +0.5 PEN. D - PL scaling from non Weapon Attack Abilities. 5% multiplicative damages and duration, +1 Acc, +0.25 PEN for each PL above Ability Tier. Also +1 bounce and +1 projectile for each 2 PL above ability Tier. So : - An Auto attack will get A so it keeps up with enemy defences. - A Weapon Attack Ability will get A and B so it keeps up with enemy defences and get benefits from PL. - A non Weapon Attack Ability will get C and D so it keeps up with enemy defences and gets benefits from PL. The A, B, C, D values are balanced so that all abilities scale about the same. The benefits from A+B are roughly equivalent to C+D. (It doesn't mean A is equivalent to C and B to D ; D provides strictly more benefits than C). All the above would be great design (and for most part is) if not for some exceptions... So here we go. 1) Passive Abilities don't benefit from PL Apart for a couple of specific case (Carnage and Sneak Attack), Passive Abilities don't get scaling from PL as Active Abilities, even for similar effect. They do get scaling from their Ability Tier. So they get scaling C, but not D, making them subpar especially for Accuracy and PEN. For example, rooting pain gets +1.5 PEN and +6 Acc for being a Tier IV ability... but nothing more. => Note that Balance Polishing Mode address this, giving +1 Acc, +0.25 PEN and +5% multiplicative damages per PL to all class passives. I didn't add +5% multiplicative duration because Passive abilities can be applied repeatedly, so I considered they didn't need it. 2) Non-Attack Weapon Abilities get double Scaling All weapon based abilities are not "attack" as Rogue Strikes are. But all of them benefit from Weapon Scaling. The problem is that their Acc and PEN scales as if they didn't... Active Weapon based abilities which are not "attacks" benefit from Weapon scaling (A), intrinsic ability tier scaling (C) and PL scaling (D). Basically, they scale a lot. According to my testing, following abilities are concerned : - Heart of Fury - Whirling Strikes (BPM removed Accuracy and PEN component by accident) - Whispers of the Winds (gasp) - Swift Flurry - CP version of Forbidden Fist - Cleaving Stance Following abilities are NOT concerned : - Clear Out and Upgrades (they are Weapon attack + an AoE attack, that's why the main target is hit twice...) - Flagellant Path and Upgrades (they are implemented in their own specific way) - Furious Call (same as Flagellant Path) - Heartseeker (also implemented in its own specific way) To give numbers Heart of Fury with a legendary weapon and PL 10 gets : - +4 PEN, +60% damages, +15 Acc from Legendary - +3.5 PEN, +16 Acc for being a Tier 8 ability - +0.5 PEN, +2 Acc, +10% multiplicative damages from PL scaling So yeah, that's +8 PEN !!! Passive Weapon based abilities which are not "attacks" benefit from Weapon scaling (A) and intrinsic ability tier scaling (C). They don't get (D) from PL because Passive Abilities don't get benefit from PL... According to my testing, following abilities are concerned : - Riposte - Barbaric Retaliation - Heartbeat Drumming - Vengeful Defeat This leads to undocumented and above average PEN and Acc. 3) About Unique items (general case, refer below for weapons) All the previous also applies to Unique Items abilities, with following specifities : - Most abilities from items counts as Tier 1 abilties, so they don't get any benefit from C - Items use "untyped Power Level", a Power Level that doesn't depend on Class / Multi-Class. All lvl 20 characters have 9 untyped power level. Single Class may have a little edge, but only due to Prestige. Only untyped PL bonus can rise this number (Potion of Elevation, Nature Godlike, etc...) Active abilties from items do get scaling D for PL (sometimes B for Weapon attacks). Basically, they don't scale too bad. Passive abilties from non weapon items get absolutely no scaling. Their PEN is set in stone, their damages are meh and their Acc is about 10 points lower than active abilities at max level. For example, the PEN of Boltcatchers electricity attacks is always 7. I think this should be addressed, as for class passive abilities. 4) About Unique Weapons The funny thing is that unique weapons also get scaled based on weapon quality (scaling A). Passive abilties (such as Frostseeker's Garland Rake) get only scaling A which is decent. Active abilties which are weapon attacks (such as Mowdyr's Bottom Up) get scaling A and B which is... the same as other Weapon Attack abilties. Active abilties which are not weapon attacks (such as Frostseeker's Garland Breath) get both scaling A and D (a bit like abilties from point 2) ). Which is a lot. That's why Thunderous Report deals so many damages with so high Acc and PEN. This is possibly a bit strong, but since Passive bonuses are often more interesting than Per Rest / Per Encounter abilties for weapons, I think it is mostly fine. Don't hesitate to correct me if you spot any inconsistency !

Consider what happens when you go SC Skald, cast Upgraded Eld Nary + Sasha Empowered Eld Nary + Eld Nary + Eld Nary all 4 in a row. And then reflection happens.

Well, I still find Resonant Touch and WofW cheap for what they do. I agree that MC are much less an issue, but I still find Dichotomous Soul way above the curve compared to other monk abilties. The reason why it is not broken is only because spamming Summons is useless since you can only have one at a time (whichis rather similar to resonant touch). WotW is broken, but I still have no clear view about how to fix it.

Lashing Vine is druid's Pull of Eora. Not directly related but I wanted to say this.

I'll try this then.

Thanks for your suggestion. I don't think it is too strong because this is the same as WotEP. WotEP may hit less target, but its base damages are higher and it doesn't do friendly fire. Or not stronger than multi-bouncing ranged attacks.

Yeah, I'm reviewing dysfunctional unique items. So either I would like to address Wahai Poraga myself, or use your stand-alone mod (and link to it on BPM description).

Happy new year ! I just wanted to know if this project is still alive 😉

And so 🙂 ? surely there would still be people who could be interested

I would be very curious about what you think about Wound Costs 😜

It works now

Ahem, but they worth 6 phrases. Which is 4 martial ressources according to my table. And more or less above anything a caster can do. Not sure either. There is no better Single Target damages than Disintegrate and Ancestors Memory is extremely potent too. What blurs the argument is that many high tiers for Ciphers are... Okayish ? But are they weaker overall, I' m not sure. The model is just an approximation anyway.

When I try to balance abilities between class, I take into account their cost. Which can be an issue granted that their ressource systems aren't the same. Brilliant gives 1 random spell, 1 martial ressource, 1 wound, 10 focus and 1 phrase per tick. However, I don't value all these ressource the same. +10 focus isn't much. +1 random spell can be brokenly good. So how much do you value each ressource ? Here is how I do : Martial ressource points are the "reference currency" for me as it is shared by the most classes (6). MC get 9 ressources. SC get 11 ressources. Spell Tier Slots : I use what I call the "Trickster conversion table" (loosely based on Trickster illusion spell cost) : Tier 1 to 3 are about 1 martial ressource. Tier 4 to 6 are about 2 martial ressources. Tier 7 to 9 are about 3 martial ressources. These are obviously approximation (Trickster even has spells from the same tier that don't have similar cost.) Some of the devastative Tier 9 spell could easily be valued 4 ressources. But I think it's not a too bad model. This means that a MC caster has an equivalent 6x1 + 6x2 + 3 = 21 martial class ressources And a SC caster has an equivalent 6x1 + 6x2 + 5x3 = 33 martial class ressources This is much more than martials but : - Casters have much less passives to choose from (and can't upgrade their abilities) - Casters have several spell tiers, so their ressource pool isn't as flexible as the other. This also forces them to pick more active abilities to be able to spend all their tier slots. It also means that SC casters get a significant ressource increase compared to MC. Phrases : Invocation cost varies from 3 to 7 phrases. These abilities worths less than 3 to 7 martial ressources. But Invocations are still very strong spell. They are also often convenient (no friendly fire) and fast to cast. I tend to count 1.5 phrases = 1 martial ressource. It means the first tiers Invocations could be worth 2 martial ressources (which I feel accurate) and stuff like Ancient Weapon could be worth 4 martial ressources (which I feel accurate too). Focus : I think Cipher spells are approximately as strong as their "normal casters" counterparts. 10 to 30 focus : about 1 martial ressource. 40 to 60 focus : about 2 martial ressources. 70 to 90 focus : about 3 martial ressources. Overall, 30 Focus ~1 martial ressource seems a good approximation IMHO. Wounds : This one is tedious to evaluate because there are much less active abilities using wounds than for other ressources and I suspect they are poorly balanced. A reason for this poor balance could be that Shattered Pillar is capped at 5 Wounds, so 5 Wounds appears as the max possible for a given ability, artificially capping Wound costs. But Whispers of the Winds costing 5 vs 3 for Skyward Kick is a bit of a Joke. Twins for 4 wounds seems super low too. I would tend to consider 3 Wounds ~1 Martial Ressource would be a good approximation, bar a couple abilities that "don't cost enough". 1 Martial ressource for Thunderous Blow, Skyward Kick or Torment Reach feels about right.

Ahem And what about Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming ?

No, you're right, it's not working for me either, even if there is a green checkbox. I'll check this evening.

Seems ok now !

I confirm that the same applies to Heart of Fury and Whirling Strikes (Whirling Strikes do not benefit from additional PL beyond 8, but that's because it was buggy anyway). I confirm that the same does NOT apply to Clear Out, Flagellang Path and their respective upgrade. Clear Out has this weird double attacks on Main Target though. I would gladly trade it for a proper AoE display.

New version uploaded as usual : Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com) Included various tweaks to Fighters and Barbarians and a couple more (slight buff to SC Chanter). Basically this version is the consequence of my thoughts about general class balance. As usually check the <Version 1.5.4> tag in the description. Nexus editing is becoming weird, and I have to switch to Code mode to update the dexription. It makes keeping perfect track of previous version with barring super tedious. Anyway barring made the page sometimes a bit messy, so it isn't too bad. NOT INCLUDED : scaling issues with WotW and similar abilities, WotW nerf, wound costs possible nerf, possible Shattered pillar nerf and BPM Empower abuse prevention. This would be for next version. Happy new year 2022 to everyone !

Foor you are to tell me, now I will have to patch it out 🙂 Enjoy it while it lasts (or use previous versions when it stops 🙂 )

While I agree with Boeroer point, it must be noticed that MC starts out basically strictly superior as SC, having twice ressource pool, class and subclasses intrinsic passive at lvl 1. So they are usually much better at this point too. Some gamechanging abilities sometimes give a distinct edge to sc for portions of the levels such as Ancestor's Memory between lvl 13 and 16 or Unbending between lvl 9 and 13.